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#1 Keffisch

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:25 AM

Which of the 40K RPG books (if any) has stats for a Canoness?



#2 htsmithium

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:39 AM

Hand of corruption has a canoness in it


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#3 Keffisch

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:46 AM

Much obliged.



#4 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:13 AM

Not a Sisters of Battle Cannoness. I'm not sure she's a Cannoness at all actually but I'd have to look it up.

 

There's one in one of the Deathwatch books.



#5 Chaplain

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 11:38 PM

Rising Tempest p.124 has Palatine


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#6 AlphariusOmegon7

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 06:09 AM

If you want to make a super-powerful-awesome canoness simply level a Battle Sister from DH all the way up to the end of the DH career path, convert the ruleset, and then give them anything else you might think they need.  



#7 Lynata

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:34 AM

That is, if your interpretation of "Battle Sisters" is essentially a light-power-armoured psyker, whose wargear still sucks in comparison but who can fall back on ridiculously overpowered divine magic to make up for these ruleset-induced shortcomings.

Assuming AlphariusOmegon7 was referring to the Blood of Martyts version rather than the earlier (and more grounded) Inquisitor's Handbook version.

 

As always, I'd advise against just taking stuff from other games 1:1, as all of FFG's 40k RPGs use somewhat different equipment and NPC profiles for a reason - individually scaled to the power level of the game and its respective player characters and influenced by changes to various core mechanics or talents. Instead, my recommendation would be to use whatever game you're playing to create them anew, to make sure the end result fits in with what you are trying to do.

 

What exactly is your interpretation of the Battle Sisters, OP? Their portrayal in the fluff ranges from GW's "let's go hunt down some Marines" Sisters of Awesome, to FFG's "we can fight Orks and Guardsmen!", all the way down to "we can't fight for gak and need the mighty Astartes to save us" that you sometimes read about in Black Library Marine bolterporn novels. Needless to say, your and your group's opinion on their battle prowess should dictate how strong they ought to be in your game.

That, or how much of a challenge you want to make an encounter with them.


Edited by Lynata, 02 June 2014 - 10:38 AM.

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#8 AlphariusOmegon7

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:41 PM

That is, if your interpretation of "Battle Sisters" is essentially a light-power-armoured psyker, whose wargear still sucks in comparison but who can fall back on ridiculously overpowered divine magic to make up for these ruleset-induced shortcomings.

Assuming AlphariusOmegon7 was referring to the Blood of Martyts version rather than the earlier (and more grounded) Inquisitor's Handbook version.

 

As always, I'd advise against just taking stuff from other games 1:1, as all of FFG's 40k RPGs use somewhat different equipment and NPC profiles for a reason - individually scaled to the power level of the game and its respective player characters and influenced by changes to various core mechanics or talents. Instead, my recommendation would be to use whatever game you're playing to create them anew, to make sure the end result fits in with what you are trying to do.

 

What exactly is your interpretation of the Battle Sisters, OP? Their portrayal in the fluff ranges from GW's "let's go hunt down some Marines" Sisters of Awesome, to FFG's "we can fight Orks and Guardsmen!", all the way down to "we can't fight for gak and need the mighty Astartes to save us" that you sometimes read about in Black Library Marine bolterporn novels. Needless to say, your and your group's opinion on their battle prowess should dictate how strong they ought to be in your game.

That, or how much of a challenge you want to make an encounter with them.

Ah, but I like Battle Sisters being hilariously overpowered - it makes up for the lack of love they get from G dubs and **** like the Khornate Knights IMO.  Besides, it leads to the hilarious image of Seraphim squads descending en mass on a Chaos force and spamming Soul Storm till there's nothing but ash (which is a valid tactic and would easily wipe out a whole army).  

 

But in all seriousness, Lynata is right - it does very much depend on your interpretation of Sisters of Battle.  I'd assume that, since you're coming up with a serious business villain for a BC campaign, that you want them fairly powerful in order to stand up to the various bull decently built BC characters can toss out with great ease, which is why I recommended BoM Sisters.  But, you may want them as secondary adversaries acting as backup to some other threat (Inquisitors, or Grey Knights for instance), or purely as threatening interaction characters (will you be detected by the holy sisters?) in which case you might, as Lynata suggested, want something a little less powerful.  

 

Also, though the IH ones are more grounded they make little to no fluff sense and have just as much potential for hilarious power breaking - in fact at higher ranks Battle Sisters from BoM pale in sheer stat comparison with those from IH.  On the other hand, the IH sisters don't have BoM Faith Talents which are some of the most broken things on this green earth.  



#9 Lynata

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:20 AM

Yeah, in my opinion BoM places too much weight on (sadly way too obvious) divine magic alone, rather than the original fluff's mixture of elite training, Astartes-grade wargear, and those ambiguous miracles that might be divine intervention ... or just a combination of extreme willpower and superstition. It results in a ... different version of the Sororitas. I suppose some people might like it more, even if it makes the Space Marines look like idiots for still not believing the Emperor is a real god.

 

That's why I personally prefer the IH version. It was not without its flaws, just like BoM was not all bad - but all in all, I think it's the one that does the original fluff more justice, simply because it doesn't have them come across like some sort of Space Mage.

 

In regards to Black Crusade, I suppose both versions might be somewhat interesting, in that one allows the Heretics to clearly demonstrate that they have powers the Imperium has no access to (and ridiculing them for it), whereas the other makes the player characters even more angry for brazenly displaying the Emperor's divine might as rivaling that of their own Gods.

 

Sidenote:

Also, though the IH ones are more grounded they make little to no fluff sense [...]

 

How so?  :huh:


Edited by Lynata, 04 June 2014 - 10:22 AM.

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#10 FieserMoep

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:34 AM

Well, I also prefered the Battle Sisters to be some sort of elite personnel that were handpicked and among the most gifted that the schola ever "produced". Clerics are holy men, priests of the imperial cult but unless they were very high rankes still something rather "ordenary" where else the sororitas always had some kind of devine aura. I do not like them to be space mages, I do like them as being exemplars of want humanity can be. Without all the implants and gene-seed but with "mere" true, honest and utterly convinced believe into the god-emperor.

 

On their own they are a formidable force, able to fight roughly anything as shocktroopers, aside from fully escalated long term warfare where SMs still were the stronger, better and more adaptable soldiers. (How cheesy it sounds, they are the best) or the IG that has the armour and numbers. But in these conflicts it would not be about them casting miracles or killing anything on their own. They would be an inspiration, a symbol ob the emperors wrath and might. What guardsman would duck and cover in his trench when there is the guiding hand of a sister, reassuring his hope through sheer acts of a human beeing, overcoming the pain, the exhaustion and suffering with its, or hers, own will? And now imagine this scenario where something rare as a real miracle might happen?

 

For me sisters are not a ****** train that slaughters anything with holy intervention but simply among the best humanity can offer - and these are truly protected by the emperor.



#11 AlphariusOmegon7

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:25 PM

Yeah, in my opinion BoM places too much weight on (sadly way too obvious) divine magic alone, rather than the original fluff's mixture of elite training, Astartes-grade wargear, and those ambiguous miracles that might be divine intervention ... or just a combination of extreme willpower and superstition. It results in a ... different version of the Sororitas. I suppose some people might like it more, even if it makes the Space Marines look like idiots for still not believing the Emperor is a real god.

 

That's why I personally prefer the IH version. It was not without its flaws, just like BoM was not all bad - but all in all, I think it's the one that does the original fluff more justice, simply because it doesn't have them come across like some sort of Space Mage.

 

In regards to Black Crusade, I suppose both versions might be somewhat interesting, in that one allows the Heretics to clearly demonstrate that they have powers the Imperium has no access to (and ridiculing them for it), whereas the other makes the player characters even more angry for brazenly displaying the Emperor's divine might as rivaling that of their own Gods.

 

Sidenote:

Also, though the IH ones are more grounded they make little to no fluff sense [...]

 

How so?  :huh:

As far as I remember - and it's been a while since I've flicked through IH - they start with lasguns and flak armour which, even for an undercover novitiate being seconded to the Inquisition seems a little bizarre.  Honestly I think the real problem was that, like Astartes, Sororitas of the Militant Orders are too combat focused and significantly too powerful for DH play, and branding these careers as such and trying to craft them that way leads to broken.  As far as I can recall though, the IH version did a fairly good and fluffy NON Militant sister much better than BoM.  



#12 Lynata

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:41 PM

As far as I remember - and it's been a while since I've flicked through IH - they start with lasguns and flak armour which, even for an undercover novitiate being seconded to the Inquisition seems a little bizarre.

 

Lasgun and carapace chestplate - I thought that was rather fitting for a Sororitas Novice. Of course I interpreted this as their official gear, rather than some undercover equipment. Not all Inquisitors do act undercover, after all, and undercover gear should always be chosen according to circumstances and individual aliases.

 

The only bizarre thing (to me) was that you could alternatively give them a Feudal World background, a set of Primitive quality platemail, and a flail. That was really weird.  :huh:

 

Honestly I think the real problem was that, like Astartes, Sororitas of the Militant Orders are too combat focused and significantly too powerful for DH play, and branding these careers as such and trying to craft them that way leads to broken.  As far as I can recall though, the IH version did a fairly good and fluffy NON Militant sister much better than BoM. 

 

Yeah, the combat power could be a problem, though the role does come with some significant drawbacks which the GM should feel free to enforce. Sisters are very much indoctrinated, after all, and so could be problematic to have around in certain situations. There is also the option of forcing the player to buy some of the suitable non-combat skills (such as Singing) as an XP-sink in order to prevent them from hogging the limelight to the detriment of other combat specialists.

 

I think the Novice background they came up with for IH was a brilliant idea in that it created a reasonable explanation for a "nerfed" Sororitas character who has to make do without the organisation's signature equipment for the first couple Ranks until she finally gets to go to Terra to take her vows and don power armour. And the GM can always delay this promotion indefinitely all depending on how it suits to the campaign and/or party balance.

 

Compare this to BoM where a Battle Sisters gets power armour and boltgun on Rank 1 (!). Though this is actually a trap, because that Sister will utterly pwn everything during the first 1-3 Ranks, and then slowly fall behind due to the excessive XP costs of her Skills and Talents, until finally she is surpassed by the group's Guardsman or Assassin and ends up being the "weakest link" of the group's combat section, once her gear advantage is neutralised by everyone else getting shiny toys to play with, too.

 

So it's kind of broken for two reasons. I have heard that the new Arbites in the Book of Judgment is similar, though, so perhaps this is just a case of different design visions clashing. Of course, what makes it bad is that this should not happen in a single game where you may actually end up using material of both developer teams.

 

Agreed about the Non-Militant Sisters, though! That development tree nicely reflected how their training was described in the original fluff, and made for a suitable overlap between the subclasses.

Conversely, BoM renders them a subtype of either the Adept or the Cleric career. Sigh.


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current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)




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