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What we like about the expansion, and what we don't


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#1 GrooveChamp

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:58 AM

The most obvious: adding more cards to some of the shallower decks that really needed it. 6 mysteries for each ancient one really makes a difference.

 

Yig has an interesting reckoning mechanic: forcing investigators to trot the globe tracking down cultists gathering at roving expedition sites.

 

 

Now, what we don't like.

 

The fact that they kept the turn skip mechanics was one of the biggest complaints about base Eldritch Horror. So why does the expansion double down on this by bringing back Lost in Time and Space? Heck, they TRIPLE down on it since some LiTaS cards make you miss TWO turns. Are they intentionally trolling people who don't like turn skipping?

 

Eldritch makes a lot of improvements over Arkham Horror that I've sung praise for. The fact that there were almost no encounters that screwed you as bad as "a gate and a monster appear", and that you can move away from monsters you can't survive a fight against. So what happens in Forsaken Lore? Lost in Time and Space cards that read: "skip a turn, get dumped into a monster surge, become delayed to lose another turn, get killed by monsters you can't run away from".  It's like someone read all my positive reviews of Eldrtich and set out to undo every positive change by having a single new mechanic bring back every unwelcome part from Arkham Horror.

 

Another great change Eldritch made? Severely cutting back on negative skill tests. The majority had no modifier, -1s were rare, and -2s were almost unheard of. Investigator stats were then changed from 0-6 in Arkham to 1-4 in Eldritch. Everyone now had a chance of passing any test, but the max values were lowered to compensate. It seems like Forsaken Lore wants to do away with this too and crams in tons of negative skill tests. We saw more -2 skill tests in a single FL game than in over the last dozen base games. So many instances of impossible zero dice skill tests. Why so hell bent on bringing back all the frustrating Arkham stuff?

 

Finally, while Yig himself feels fun and new, his research encounter deck is not. So many encounters where you can't possible get the clue, even if you succeed! "-2 observation test or become poisoned, gain an artifact and discard clue if you succeed". Artifacts are nice, but you need clues to solve mysteries. "Take a dark pact to discard the clue and gain an artifact, lose 2 sanity and 2 allies if you refuse". We lost a game solely because the vital clue we needed next to the final mystery had us draw 3 research encounters in a row where it was impossible to acquire the clue. It would be one thing if Yig's mysteries didn't require clues, but they do. That is not a good design. Clues are vital and players spend many turns traveling to them. To have research encounters yank them away from you even if you succeed the tests is aggravating.

 

 

So to sum up: new cards good, Yig fun, turn skipping bad, ugly Arkham Horror flaws being reintroduced. Please realize what made Eldritch an improved streamlined, less frustrating (while not being less difficult) form of Arkham Horror and stop trying to turn it back into Arkham Horror. Our group on the verge of house ruling out all "you can't get this clue" research encounters and tossing Lost in Time and Space cards to the bottom of the basement closet next to the New Caprica board, never to be brought out again.

 

I better not see money and monster-blocking brought back next expansion.


Edited by GrooveChamp, 25 May 2014 - 01:10 AM.


#2 Glaurung

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 03:15 AM

yes I also play some game where I desperately need a clue and boom you get artefact or skill improve..... I need clue now to win a game and..... you stuck with artefact and boom lost a game... hate this

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#3 klaymen_sk

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:41 AM


 
We saw more -2 skill tests in a single FL game than in over the last dozen base games. So many instances of impossible zero dice skill tests. Why so hell bent on bringing back all the frustrating Arkham stuff?

 

 

 

 

Actually, if your dice pool is below 1, you still roll one die. Reference guide p.11.


Edited by klaymen_sk, 25 May 2014 - 06:41 AM.

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#4 Julia

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 05:51 PM

As for the clues: please, consider my results as not 100% since analysis was done on the cards from the beta and not from the actually printed cards. They shouldn't be too much different from the actual deck composition, though. Out of 72 encounters granting you clues (24 x 3 possible zones of encounter), Yig has 9 encounters granting you no clues, 53 encounters granting you 1 clue, 10 encounters granting you 2+ clues. On average, out of the 24-cards of each research decks, intervals are as follows:

 

- 0 clues: 9 min (Yig) to 12 max (Yog)

- 1 clue: 48 min (Yog) to 53 max (Yig)

- 2 clues: 10 min (Yig) to 12 max (Yog)

 

so, all AOs are balanced more or less in the same way (differences in ranges are quite low)

 

The average odds to pass a skill check and get a clue (average of all characters existing for the game after averaging each character over the array of encounters) are:

 

- Azathoth: 55%

- Cthulhu: 51%

- Shub: 51%

- Yig: 49%

- Yog: 54%

 

Here clearly Yig is a little more difficult than the others, but not too far from them.

 

So, point is that it's not Yig that it's tougher than the other AOs, but generally speaking FL makes the game slightly more difficult, with resources to be harder to gain.

 

Remember, the stat mainly tested for clues acquisition is Observation, so that you should choose accordingly who goes after clues, and eventually select investigators to be sent in places where you know you can improve Observation (it's more effective having more characters extending their dice pool than specializing a character by improving an already high stat: odds grows asymptotically, not linearly)

 

(just some thoughts about the math of the expansion, nothing more)


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#5 ricedwlit

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:30 PM

Regarding clues:

One thing that I repeatedly have to remind myself of with EH (as opposed to AH) is that when i see a clue on the board, it's not a given that I'll get it if I travel to its location (contrast with AH where you pick up first, then have to survive the encounter). If I simplify things a bit from Julia's analysis and state "50% chance to get a clue" then if I want to be "fairly certain" I'll get the clue then I should allocate two turns - possibly more.

As such, I find myself parallelizing things more: even if the rumor only needs clues = investigators / 2 I'll send a majority to claim them, since I don't know which ones will complete their tasks first.

Regarding the expansion in general:

I for one like the increased difficulty. With just the base game, I was at the point of having to decide how I would make things more difficult - either switch from four to three investigators or remove the easy Mythos (or both). Then I got the expansion and proceeded to lose my first four games. Additional negative modifiers for checks are okay for me, as noted earlier the minimum to roll will always be 1. Some of the new Assets help out in this case (I forget the name but one allows you to re-roll on die for any check).

Edited by ricedwlit, 27 May 2014 - 09:32 PM.


#6 Glaurung

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:25 AM

yes lucky ring a cool asset. Anyway I also happy witg difficulty increase but sometimes is a bit stupid. but probably there is no other way anyway. Game is cool now, have si many variations im happy. FL is really good one! And now I plat even more often.

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#7 D4L3W

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:09 PM

...I for one like the increased difficulty. With just the base game, I was at the point of having to decide how I would make things more difficult - either switch from four to three investigators or remove the easy Mythos (or both)...


Maybe it's just my sweet spot, but I'd argue that three investigators is easier than four. Sure, you have to round up, but two or three clues is still easier to come by than four, and epic monsters still seem manageable.

But having said that, I was contemplating removing the easy Mythos cards as well until Yig came along. Two, three or four investigators he still usually kicks my ass.

#8 wmtheta

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 05:18 PM

There is no turn skipping mechanic in Eldritch Horror. Well, at least there isn't from the perspective of a Talisman player, a game where "miss your next turn" actually means "miss your next turn." In EH, what people call "turn skipping" actually just means you can't take any actions (if you're delayed) and perhaps you have to make an unpleasant encounter (if you're "detained" or "lost in time and space"). Since the encounters are really the heart of EH, not the actions, you're never really taken out of the game in EH. If "miss your next turn" is really a "horrible" mechanic, it's horrible because it takes a player out of the game, making it generally boring for that player. But since the fun is mostly in the encounters (unless you're playing EH like a pure strategy game, which is silly), and since you always get an encounter in EH, I really don't think the criticism applies.     


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#9 Glaurung

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:19 PM

I like lost and time and space idea. In my opinion is done much better here then in AH. Still maybe -2 checks is a bit more difficult yes. And also I like encounters where you can choose what to do instead just only roll dice. Is make game more thematic
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Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#10 Daisu

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 10:14 AM

When gain an artifact comes up but we need a clue, we get grotesque statue artifact to gain five clues, it is usally our first artifact we tend to get due to the helpful guard versus losing sanity.  Or for an artifact tome the new tome that allows you to test lore for two clues but the waiting till next round might not fit the requrements of the mystery. I only used this artifact once, and it was last night since we needed clues and charlie was not the greatest in solvng clue encounters in my general experience with him.

 

I like the expansion adding mystery cards which lengthen our fun with the game, but I would like more non-epic monsters and invesigator cards.






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