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Crippling Las Munitions?


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#1 Hourhe

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 07:03 AM

In Hammer of the Emperor, on the table for designing pros/cons of variants for ranged weapons,  there is an option to have "Crippling Munitions" granting the weapon Crippling (2). Now-- say I wanted to put that quality on a las weapon... kinda hard to cripple something with Pen 0.

 

So really I'm just getting ideas for how to justify a las  (specifically a rifle, if that factors in at all) have a "cripple" effect.

Anything short of tech-heresy is fine by me.

 



#2 Myrion

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 07:26 AM

The las bolt is tuned to such a frequency that it leaves lingering pain as the synapses are overloaded and continue firing. How about this?

#3 Hourhe

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 07:45 AM

I like the idea of the Toughness Bonus soak working against the enemy-- like I can kinda picture the energy diffusing across the limb, then the foe's face contorting

 

But then how to justify that effect on non-biological enemy types...



#4 FieserMoep

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 08:12 AM

Maybe the Las Weapon does not fire a las-bolt (the thing that is painted like a constant stream of energy on most artworks) but instead short pulses that do not simply pierce the target but instead apply the energy to one area again and again and hence causing some greater wounds with less penetration.

 

Are there any cons you create for that weapon? Maybe that could help us too. With my example a good con might be inefficient barrel.


Edited by FieserMoep, 24 May 2014 - 08:20 AM.


#5 Hourhe

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 10:31 AM

Due to the ammo, I was thinking that Overheat or Recharge would be apt
I also like Bulky, (additional 2kg), it also justifies fluff for whatever machine-process occurs to produce the cripple-effect

#6 Adeptus-B

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 11:03 AM

Laser weapons in sci-fi are almost always depicted as cauterizing the wounds they inflict, but in real life, lasers can be 'tuned' to turn water into steam (yes, including the water in human bodies, causing portions of the body to instantly explode into pink steam) There are rumors that the U.S. military used the invasion of Panama in the 1990s as an opportunity to test some of these weapons on the civilian population...



#7 Hourhe

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 11:26 AM

But that in particular would be minimally effective against anything inorganic or with even mediocre armour.
While it'd be ridiculous against unarmoured targets...

Edited by Hourhe, 24 May 2014 - 11:28 AM.


#8 Fgdsfg

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 11:32 AM

The C59 "Crippler" Lasgun has a wide-dispersal photonic wave converted mounted on the muzzle, resulting in a series of strong burning radiation flashes hitting the enemy. These flashes are incredibly hard to dodge (provided the soldier's aim is true) and keeps flashing shortly after the lasgun has been fired. As a result, the enemy suffers greatly as the radiation wrack the body, making every attempt to move painful. At the GM:s discretion, some radiation-proof equipment may allow a target to ignore this Crippling (2) effect. The Crippler has been outlawed in many sectors, but remain in use amongst some less than reputable regiments throughout the Spinward Front and Sector Calixis.

How does that sound?


Edited by Fgdsfg, 24 May 2014 - 11:36 AM.

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#9 Hourhe

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 11:48 AM

The pulsating round is a bit challenging to get my head wrapped around-- but using that method of discharge, I think I can mess with some of the base stats. Maybe bump up damage, then give it a recharge cycle

But it do like the C59, I think I may just take that
Might change it to "Cripple-strike" though

Furthermore I like the less-than-reputable bit, because I'm planning a Frontier-World regiment

Edited by Hourhe, 24 May 2014 - 12:59 PM.


#10 FieserMoep

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:02 PM

 Since when does your reputation go low when you utilize brutal but effective Ammunition against a foe? This reminds me of the count-as dum-dum ammunition of Mass Effect Description but the imperial society would simply not care about such a thing. I doubt that they have any sort of Geneva convention that bans weapons that cause unnecessary suffering.^^



#11 Hourhe

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:12 PM

Well-- in all likelihood, a given weapon's degree of acceptance is mostly based on it's usefulness and it's relationship with the Mechanicus
So in this case, it's likely that my frontier-world is the source of manufacture, and for whatever reason it's creation is at-odds with the standard practices of the Tech-Priests

#12 Fgdsfg

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:24 PM

 Since when does your reputation go low when you utilize brutal but effective Ammunition against a foe? This reminds me of the count-as dum-dum ammunition of Mass Effect Description but the imperial society would simply not care about such a thing. I doubt that they have any sort of Geneva convention that bans weapons that cause unnecessary suffering.^^

A lot of weapons are outlawed in the Imperium for a variety of reasons, including being illegally modified, being originally created by hereteks, being suspected of being warptech, or because they damage **** the Imperium does not want damaged.

Atomics, for example, is specifically illegal due to their planet-wide destruction, rendering target worlds unlivable.

Honestly, just take your pick as to why it would be illegalized. The potential of it falling into enemy hands? Maybe it irradiates the corpses, resulting in considerable fallout during protracted warfare? Maybe it rendered a nobleman sterile once and since then people using it is shot on sight?

 

Or based on what Hourhe said, it may simply not have been sanctioned yet, but still fallen into the hands of those that do not care, creating an underground market for the weapon. It being arguably illegal then gave it a bad reputation, staining those that use it, even though there's absolutely nothing wrong with the weapon. Getting something "new" sanctioned (or something old investigated) might take centuries!
 

 

[...]

But it do like the C59, I think I may just take that
Might change it to "Cripple-strike" though

[,,,]

The "Crippler" was just a nickname, anyway. Cripple-strike has a bit more official ring to it, but if you want an official name, I'd just name it after the world on which it was discovered/created, such as "C59 Hourhe-Pattern Lasgun".


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#13 Hourhe

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:39 PM

I'd prefer *not* having my regiment investigated by the Mechanicus, so I'll probably need to iron out the detail of why exactly this effect isn't as widely circulated as it should hypothetically be. 

While some Cons from Hammer of the Emperor can do a bit to justify why its not as reliable as the M36... I still think that I need a background for the weapon that leans away from a completely unsanctioned design

 

Ooh, and this could tie in to the Cloud of Suspicion regimental Drawback...
--but like I said, tech-heresy is something that I *really* don't want to even look at, even from orbit


Edited by Hourhe, 24 May 2014 - 02:42 PM.


#14 FieserMoep

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:48 PM

Going form a handgun straight up to atomics is a bit of a step eh?

Also the thing, outlawed about atomics is not their destructive potential (There are far more worse things), the problem about them is their availability.

You do not need a law against virus bombs because there are not that much virus bombs in the hands of those that would be regulated by said law.

 

And all these other reasons you mentioned are because of one thing: Faith. The Cult Mechanicus has the monopoly on technology and is rather pissed if someone fabricates stuff. They do not ban guns because they kill people or hurt a bit but for they are against their believes, some of them make sense, some not so much.

 

There is a reason the Lasrifle is the gun of the imperium for it is always standardizes to a certain degree. Well, I do not want to be the guy that goes to the munitorium officer, trying to explain on a battlefield far from home, why he does use a non-sanctioned gun. Even less do I want to be the guy trying to get some assistance from an enginseer after he realized that the entire regiment is doing rather suspicious stuff.

 

IG Regiments can do a lot of stuff but openly and regularly carrying something around that is forbidden is rather difficult to explain with: "We are just some savages from a frontier world, intelligent enough to create some tech-heresy and stupid enough to sell it as our tithe back to the imperium."


Edited by FieserMoep, 24 May 2014 - 02:50 PM.


#15 Askil

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 01:17 AM

A simple explaination for a crippling lasgun would be that it has been tuned to fire a slighty longer beam over a wider spread than the regular lasbolt, as such it applies it`s heat over a longer time and wider area and inflicts larger if slightly less severe wounds which reopen if the victim continues running about.

 

Although that would rather beg the question of why flamers aren`t crippling.



#16 Fgdsfg

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 04:22 AM

I'd prefer *not* having my regiment investigated by the Mechanicus, so I'll probably need to iron out the detail of why exactly this effect isn't as widely circulated as it should hypothetically be. 

While some Cons from Hammer of the Emperor can do a bit to justify why its not as reliable as the M36... I still think that I need a background for the weapon that leans away from a completely unsanctioned design

 

Ooh, and this could tie in to the Cloud of Suspicion regimental Drawback...
--but like I said, tech-heresy is something that I *really* don't want to even look at, even from orbit

I'd go with the "not sanctioned yet" approach, where it's simply not been sanctioned, so it's not outlawed, it's just in this grey murky area, malatek (is that the name? Or is it malatech?) at best, and have been locally outlawed in various sectors or planets, but not any blanket ban from the AdMech or the Administratum.
 

Going form a handgun straight up to atomics is a bit of a step eh?

Also the thing, outlawed about atomics is not their destructive potential (There are far more worse things), the problem about them is their availability.

You do not need a law against virus bombs because there are not that much virus bombs in the hands of those that would be regulated by said law.

 

And all these other reasons you mentioned are because of one thing: Faith. The Cult Mechanicus has the monopoly on technology and is rather pissed if someone fabricates stuff. They do not ban guns because they kill people or hurt a bit but for they are against their believes, some of them make sense, some not so much.

 

There is a reason the Lasrifle is the gun of the imperium for it is always standardizes to a certain degree. Well, I do not want to be the guy that goes to the munitorium officer, trying to explain on a battlefield far from home, why he does use a non-sanctioned gun. Even less do I want to be the guy trying to get some assistance from an enginseer after he realized that the entire regiment is doing rather suspicious stuff.

 

IG Regiments can do a lot of stuff but openly and regularly carrying something around that is forbidden is rather difficult to explain with: "We are just some savages from a frontier world, intelligent enough to create some tech-heresy and stupid enough to sell it as our tithe back to the imperium."

Well yes, it's a step up, but I brought it up to make a point. On the issue of atomics being outlawed not because of their destructive potential, you're objectively wrong. They are specifically outlawed because they render planets uninhabitable. The warfare of 40k is all about taking an holding objectives and worlds, to which atomics would be completely counter-intuitive. If the objective is to carry out an Exterminatus, there are far more effective means, such as Virus Bombs or Cyclonic weapons.

As for the AdMech, I don't think it comes down to faith. This is the 41st millennium. To the AdMech, atomics are likely considered to be incredibly basic technology, something infant civilizations play with, completely outdated and surpassed by even the most basic Macrocannons.

Also, the point was that it doesn't have to be widescale banned, but rather that it's been banned in some places. The Imperium is far from uniform, and I brought up a number of examples as to why a weapon could have a bad reputation or be locally banned without suffer major sanction at the highest levels.
 

 

A simple explaination for a crippling lasgun would be that it has been tuned to fire a slighty longer beam over a wider spread than the regular lasbolt, as such it applies it`s heat over a longer time and wider area and inflicts larger if slightly less severe wounds which reopen if the victim continues running about.

 

Although that would rather beg the question of why flamers aren`t crippling.

Because they put you on fire, which actually mimics much of the effects of Crippling anyway. :D


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#17 TemplarofSteel

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 06:17 PM

As to why it isn't widespread. that's quite simple, the processes for making it are either far too involved or some of the weapons downsides make it less than practical. For example, in a game I ran the players lasguns all had the felling property as well as, I believe, being Ogryn Proof (They were fortress worlders and the world was an anti-ork bulwark so the weapons were more or less customized to that) However the guns were bulkier and had 5 fewer shots per clip. Great weapons against Orks, but those fewer shots and extra weight wouldn't be as useful in other scenarios. My way of looking at the crippling shot would be that it was probably either harder to make in that it required special resources or semi-forgotten rites of the adeptus mechanicus. Another possibility could merely be that instead of being banned or something it was instead frequently misfiled because of how it behaved (if it fires something more like a spread than the standard las blasts it might be misidentified as a different weapon type that the squad got more or less by luck/mistake/emperors will)



#18 Fgdsfg

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 03:11 AM

I just realized that we haven't discussed the Drawbacks. The drawbacks alone could be a reason that it doesn't have a widespread distribution.

Myself, I rolled up a custom lasgun pattern:
 

M37 Torque-Pattern Lasgun:
Class: Basic; Rng: 110m; RoF S/3/-; 1d10+3E Pen 0; Clip 60; Rld Half; Reliable, Variable. 2kg.
In melee: 1d10R Pen 0; Primitive (8).

Light-Weight; -2kg, Only -10 to One-hand.
Rapid Clip Ejecton; Half Rld.
Longbarrel; Increases range by 10m.
Forgotten Construction; -30 on Skill Tests to repair.
Delicate; If it jams, roll 1d10. On a 1, internal mechanisms seize up or snap, requiring repair (Hard (-20) Tech-Use Test), taking several minutes.

Now, the reason that this isn't a widespread pattern is that there simply weren't that many made, and it's employed by the Inquisition (and a specific part of it, no less, in fact, under a single Inquisitor).

But note that it's got Forgotten Construction and Delicate as drawbacks. That means that if there's a Jam, 1/10 times, it will require repair. And that repair is at a total -50.

That thing being used in battlefield conditions? Hahaha, oh wow, no, never. It's lightweight and flimsy, extended focusing lenses, but oh how delicate that thing is.

So if you are still monitoring this thread, Hourhe, I'd love to see how the final pattern worked out. It would be easier to pitch ideas and such. And even though you're probably done with it now, and probably incorporated it into play (if you are even playing at the moment), I'd like to see it "just because". :)


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#19 Hourhe

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 09:35 PM

Well, I kinda went a different direction a bit...

 

C5-9 "Cripplestrike" Lasgun

Class: Basic; Range: 90m; RoF: S/3/- ; Dam 1d10+3E; Pen 0; Clip 40; Rld Half; 

Special: Crippling (2), Accurate, Reliable

 

So I threw together a few from the Ranged Weapon table, as well as the General Eq. table. At the same time I was more concerned about working out design versus trait-balance

 

From Gen Eq:

Pros

Durable: when the undergoes destructive damage, 6+ on a d10 means its okay

Cons

Capricious: whenever used for a test roll d10, on a 1, it imposes a -10 penalty

 

From the Ranged:

Pros

Rapid Clip Eject: half-round for reload

Crippling Munitions: Cripple (2)

Incredibly Lethal: Accurate

Cons

4 stacks of Small Clip (feel free to tell me if that's BS)

Rare Model: -20 on acquisition attempts outside of place of manufacture

 

Found within a STC fragment located on a moon in [home system] the Cripplestrike, or "Five-by-Nine" harnesses a modification in the firing chamber to produce a nanometers-wide gap within the center of the beam produced during firing. Within this microscopic gap, energy from the beam arcs around and produces an area of intense electromagnetic radiation. when it comes into contact with a surface, the radiation sinks deep into organic tissue and scrambles electrical systems, the force of the radiation expanding upon contact also leaves uncharacteristically circular scorch marks averaging 2-5cm in diameter, giving rise to the "Halo-strike" Las.

 

Commonly used by Light Infantry and Regiments particularly skilled in hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare, they pack a punch, but have less punches to throw. The discharge also is documented to have minor effects on accuracy, as the energy sometimes leaks through the grounding and into the user's hands. Specialists from [player character's regiment] who train for years extensively with these weapons undergo a single shot from a Cripplestrike at 10m to prove their dedication, and are commonly addressed as "Crips" in Low Gothic

 

So, yeah, my only balancing was to knock 1/3 of the clip off and give it a 10% chance of -10 penalty...

but the clip restrictions make sense in canceling out the Rapid Eject. and partially the Cripple, then I figure Capricious more-or-less covers the rest to a pretty good degree. And the Rare Model is a pretty good tool for playing up the value of the weapon, and allows me to give PCs a reason to interact with other Regiments ("Oh, hey, we're from the same system-- Why, yes, in fact, we *do* have some fresh gear!")

Unfortunately I didn't have a completely fluff-solid reason for the Mechanicus to have beef with the design, other than making it the product of a *corrupted* STC frag, and I reeeeaally don't want to go there... (If I did, I'd also feel obligated to throw in Corrupted Pattern, and I don't want to do that to my PCs)

Plus, I figured some of the more civilized reg.s will give the PCs issues over how "barbaric" the ritual maiming of their Sharpshooter's is. (I've got a running adv. specialization variant of Sharpshooter, so it ties in well)

I was also considering giving it Valuable (+20 for Commerce tests when trading) but I figured that that would be reserved for less available equipment.

 

All-in-all, do tell me if you think that I went too easy on the balance with this. I know I went a little more in the PCs favor, but it has to be a weapon they'll find fun and effective. I figure I leave the harsh-reality stuff to scenarios and killing off a few more Comrades than I usually would.



#20 Elmer84

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 03:01 AM

You do realise how overpowered this weapon is, right?

 

A single shot with half round aim action at the range of <45m is:

10 (basic dificulty for a single shot) + 10 (short range) + 10 (half round aim) + 10 (accurate) = +40

and that's not counting any conditions or attachments to a weapon like a scope of laser sight, so an average PC guard has ~70% chance to hit enemy in a firefight.

Not very advanced weapon specialist with BS35, "Dead Eye" and "Marksman" traits [cheap] will have 85% [35 (basic) + 10 (single shot) + 10 (half round aim) + 10 (accurate) + 30 (unaware) - 10 (called shot with "Dead Eye")] chance to shoot off balls of an enemie taking a piss 360m away [maximum/extreme range of your gun (4x given range)]

 

 

Now to the damage:

 

1d10+3 with pen 0 ok, but don't forget that most lasguns have variablesettings so as a smart guard I shoot at the overload setting so:

 

1d10+3(basic)+2(overload)+1/2d10 (from accurate, 01-30 on dice is 2d10 and 30-50 is 1d10 for BS70 as mentioned above) with penetration 2. So the damage range goes from 4 (on the most basic settings and the worst shot) up to 35 with PEN 2, and that would take out a light vehicle in 1 shot (sentinel hit on a side/rear would land on 2 crit dam, and you could even score 7 structural damage to the back side of a bloody baneblade). Yes the max damage is almost impossible and will also incure emperrors fury (or whatever you call it) but average shot will be sth around 15-17 dam with pen 2, and that storm troopers in a carpace armor just lost his will to live, and even if he lives it thru, he won't be able to run away since the cripple effect will kill him.

 

What you created is a hand held sniper laser cannon, and not a las gun. The clip thing is laughable in comparison with the pros, and the 10% for -10 to bs, with the +40 for a single shot in a range <45 m is not worth mentioning. Rare model? in your description you made it into yet another advantage, and not a disadventage.

 

If you wan't to keep the pros but make it less overpowered, shrink the clip to 12 rounds and make the reload 1 full round, make the weapon bulky/heavy or give it an overheating trait. Otherwise, your players will abuse **** out of it, belive me they will. What is there to stop them from standing 300 m away from enemy camp and just make a shooting galley with a massive damage per shot?

 

Also, the guide lines are to give weapon traits to weapons and general traits to nonweapon stuff like armor and tools, also the best result on the chart you can get is 3 pros and 2 cons, and that is 10% chance for it, but your game your rules :)


Edited by Elmer84, 15 September 2014 - 05:28 AM.





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