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thinking about F&D beta.


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#1 oriondean

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:23 AM

so I am thinking about buying the F&D beta book and participating in the beta. but is the book just going to be full of the rules and no descriptive text like we see in the finished products for EotE and AoR?



#2 Zar

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:35 AM

It will probably be a repeat of the rules, equipment, and some vehicles with new careers and specs based around jedi, and then a section on force powers. 


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#3 Lathrop

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:35 AM

Pretty much - rules and descriptions as necessary; fluff on the galaxy left out. I'm assuming you don't have the Age of Rebellion Beta, but if you've got the EotE Core, AoR's Beta is basically missing the "The Galaxy" and "Law and Society" chapters; you can expect Force and Destiny's Beta to be similar.



#4 copperbell

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:17 PM

I'm hoping the Force rules will make use of the narrative dice used by the prior systems so we'd actually have Force Rating as a characteristic that could go as high as 3 for actual force users and the force powers becoming skills keeping the talent trees for them so they'd keep that improved strength, range, etc.

 

I've yet to hear or see an explanation for the Influence power that causes only 2 strain to foes since I'd have visualised that differently so I'm hoping for an explanation that fits the three systems that looks like it can work.

 

This might be me expecting too much but its something to look forward to!



#5 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:46 PM

so I am thinking about buying the F&D beta book and participating in the beta. but is the book just going to be full of the rules and no descriptive text like we see in the finished products for EotE and AoR?

The majority of the rules are going to be reprints of the basic dice mechanics from the prior two rulebooks.

 

The bulk of the new material is likely going to consist of species, careers, specializations, new talents, maybe some new gear, possibly some new vehicles, and possibly some new Force powers (though it is possible they may just reprint the five powers from EotE & AoR and call it a day, I find that notion rather unsatisfying).

 

Don't expect any radical alterations to the way Force powers work either.  That part of the mechanics has already been pretty well hammered out in the two prior books, so it's doubtful FFG is going to change things up too much for the third book in what is meant to be part of a greater whole.


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#6 Lathrop

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 03:34 PM

Yeah, no reason to think Force Rating won't work into Force and Destiny. While there may be talents/powers that can be used to alter force power use, Force Rating will still be the basis of powers and there'll undoubtedly be ways to continue to expand it. Keep in mind the system was meant to not only allow people to use each system's various mechanics with each other with no issues, but that it was also created to allow players to follow character growth similar to how it was through the original trilogies (so in particular, Luke as some kid on the Rim, going into a starfighter pilot and being a capable force user, to being an incredibly powerful Jedi).

 

Not to mention Edge of the Empire had a chart that was used to indicate approximate power levels of force-users by their Force Rating. I don't have mine easily accessible, but I vaguely recall a force rating 6 to be on the very upper end of the chart.



#7 HappyDaze

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 12:22 AM

Not to mention Edge of the Empire had a chart that was used to indicate approximate power levels of force-users by their Force Rating. I don't have mine easily accessible, but I vaguely recall a force rating 6 to be on the very upper end of the chart.

Do note that Force Rating (the talent) has no limit listed to how many ranks of it you can take and the chart you mention was removed from the final version of Edge of the Empire. It's quite possible that a character with several specializations could have a massive Force Rating.


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#8 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 04:32 AM

 

Not to mention Edge of the Empire had a chart that was used to indicate approximate power levels of force-users by their Force Rating. I don't have mine easily accessible, but I vaguely recall a force rating 6 to be on the very upper end of the chart.

Do note that Force Rating (the talent) has no limit listed to how many ranks of it you can take and the chart you mention was removed from the final version of Edge of the Empire. It's quite possible that a character with several specializations could have a massive Force Rating.

 

I'm actually hoping that a hard cap is set on Force Rating, much as Characteristics and Skills have a hard cap.

 

Guess we'll see in a few months...


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#9 Cynabar

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 08:20 PM

I think that there will be Lightsabre combat as a force power, rather than as a skill. But what about the idea of a heal/injure power?

 

I do remember that force rating chart in the EotE beta, but I suspect Donovan will be correct about an upper limit.

 

Cynabar



#10 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:42 AM

I think that there will be Lightsabre combat as a force power, rather than as a skill. But what about the idea of a heal/injure power?

 

I do remember that force rating chart in the EotE beta, but I suspect Donovan will be correct about an upper limit.

 

Cynabar

I'd rather they avoid doing a separate Force power that centers solely upon lightsabers.  Between the Sense power, having Lightsaber as a career skill, and a selection of talents to cover defense/deflection/reflection, that would be sufficient.

 

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with the notion that everything we see a Jedi do in the films is strictly the domain of Force powers.


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#11 awayputurwpn

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 11:14 AM

 

I think that there will be Lightsabre combat as a force power, rather than as a skill. But what about the idea of a heal/injure power?

 

I do remember that force rating chart in the EotE beta, but I suspect Donovan will be correct about an upper limit.

 

Cynabar

I'd rather they avoid doing a separate Force power that centers solely upon lightsabers.  Between the Sense power, having Lightsaber as a career skill, and a selection of talents to cover defense/deflection/reflection, that would be sufficient.

 

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with the notion that everything we see a Jedi do in the films is strictly the domain of Force powers.

 

Yeah "Lightsaber" is already called out as a skill in the other two games. It'd be a silly move to change it to a Force power in the third game. The games are supposed to be capable of being seamlessly integrated.  



#12 oriondean

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 04:24 PM

 

 

I think that there will be Lightsabre combat as a force power, rather than as a skill. But what about the idea of a heal/injure power?

 

I do remember that force rating chart in the EotE beta, but I suspect Donovan will be correct about an upper limit.

 

Cynabar

I'd rather they avoid doing a separate Force power that centers solely upon lightsabers.  Between the Sense power, having Lightsaber as a career skill, and a selection of talents to cover defense/deflection/reflection, that would be sufficient.

 

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with the notion that everything we see a Jedi do in the films is strictly the domain of Force powers.

 

Yeah "Lightsaber" is already called out as a skill in the other two games. It'd be a silly move to change it to a Force power in the third game. The games are supposed to be capable of being seamlessly integrated.  

 

about the force power thing. that was somewhat of the downfall of starwars d20. every minuscule thing we see in the films was forcepowered. and force powers were either skills or feats. so for a jedi to do anything and still have effective non force skills/feats he always had low skill ratings and never climbed any feat trees.  they tried to reverse that trend in starwars saga by introducing force powers and a 1/2/3 per day whatever thing. so jedi ended up feeling like sorcerers or wizards/mages from D&D 3.5 ugg. the good news was that deflect and lightsaber deflect were something that you just picked up as you advanced in level that was neither a feat or a skill or a force power. that was nice.


Edited by oriondean, 30 May 2014 - 04:27 PM.

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#13 awayputurwpn

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 04:51 PM

Yeah, Force Powers were more of a "once-per-encounter" thing in Saga, so not quite Vancian, but it did explain why Obi-Wan couldn't use surge again to catch up with Darth Maul & Qui-Gon during their duel :)



#14 bull30548

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:10 AM

Well my concern is that a lightsaber is going to be like the weapon in the Jedi Knight Series video games especially the last few.  Basically what happen is as soon as the lightsaber touched your opponent = instant death.  I had a tendency just to force pull an enemy (or choke depending on my light/dark powers) and just wack them real quick and get an instant kill.  I want actual lightsaber combat (which in the game usually equal your death because as I said a simple touch).  So I have been coming up with something I ripped off from the EU book and well The Mask of Zorro.  

 

Engaged combat gets its own range bands.

It is basically close, medium, long and extreme.

Extreme- equals short range in ranged combat and is the range to move into and out of engaged as per the rules.

Long- This is the distance you wish to engage large weapons (such as two handed ones) as to not get skewered.  As far as personal lightsaber combat this gives the character the most options in attacking an opponent from almost any point.  However, the drawback is that the strikes are slower as they are more broad regardless if delivered one handed or two handed strikes.  To move to/from long to medium/extreme is a maneuver and two maneuvers to move in and out of close.  The second will impose a setback die on deflection/blocks on the characters next turn.

Medium- This is the distance at which a player may wish to use for both blaster bolt blocks and lightsaber blocks and strikes against equal length weapons (such as vibroweapons or another lightsaber blocks).  This is also the optimal range to strike at one opponent in lightsaber combat.  It is only a single maneuver to move from either close or long range and two to move out to extreme.  Doing the latter does not impose a penalty and is explained in extreme why.

Close-This is the last line of defense and most duelist do not wish to be engaged at this range if on the defensive.  If one attempts blaster or lightsaber blocks/deflections causes a setback die (unless a talent counteracts it) and all attacks get a boost die when attacking.  Moving from close to medium is a maneuver and long is two maneuvers

 

That what I got so far though I admit is not the best and has lots of room of improvement I thought it do a better job of simulating the cinematic feel of lightsaber combat we see (especially in Episode 1-3).  I figure that there will be lightsaber forms that will be talent trees unto themselves to help mitigate or increase dice pools.


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#15 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:14 AM

I doubt we're going to see any major alterations to the combat rules where lightsabers are concerned, at least not in the corebook,  The eventual GM's kit may have some optional rules for handling 'saber duels, but that's be 2015.

 

As for lightsabers being deadly... yes, they very much are, just as they are in the source material.  Luke went to town on Jabba's mooks during RotJ, and in the prequels we saw Jedi hewing through nameless adversaries (particularly battle droids) like they were made of tissue paper.  The only folks to come out ahead against a lightsaber-wielding opponent either had lightsabers themselves or stayed the heck away from the 'saber wielder (Jango Fett during the Kamino fight).  Luke only survived his first actual duel with Vader due to the Sith Lord not wanting to kill Luke, but instead either capture or turn the boy; Vader probably won't show that same degree of mercy to any lightsaber-wielding PCs he comes across, and instead will probably demolish them in short order if they opt to stand and fight.

 

There's also the story/fluff-based elements that openly brandishing a lightsaber in the Rebellion Era is going to cause that character a lot of problems unless they're in the habit of leaving absolutely no witnesses.  DarthGM's Fragments from the Rim micro-cast (part of the Mad Adventurer's Society) recently posted an episode that discusses the kinds of problems a character could expect to have if they start openly using a weapon that's pretty much iconic to a quasi-religious order that's gotten a very bad name in the 20 years since it's abolishment thanks to Imperial propaganda.

 

Combatwise, yeah a lightsaber is going to chew through minion groups and dole out critical injuries by the handful... but that's part of what it's supposed to do.  It's much the same as trying to completely rework the ranged combat rules simply because of how brutal a disruptor pistol/rifle can be.


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#16 bull30548

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:47 AM

Actually my lightsaber combat could not be limited to just lightsabers it could be applied to a majority of melee weapons.  Donovan you going to stop playing if they introduce new melee combat rules? lol j/k.  Actually i wonder if they will do just that because they are introducing such a melee intensive weapon? It would make sense since they waited until an adventure book to introduce mass combat of squads and squadrons.  They craft over there at FFG.....


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#17 Chortles

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 11:27 AM

Combatwise, yeah a lightsaber is going to chew through minion groups and dole out critical injuries by the handful... but that's part of what it's supposed to do.  It's much the same as trying to completely rework the ranged combat rules simply because of how brutal a disruptor pistol/rifle can be.

As importantly, the melee rules from as far back as Edge of the Empire were/are already designed to account for lightsabers (one sort at least)... it can't be customized, but even without that it's hilariously brutal in a trained user's hands!


 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#18 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:01 PM

 

Combatwise, yeah a lightsaber is going to chew through minion groups and dole out critical injuries by the handful... but that's part of what it's supposed to do.  It's much the same as trying to completely rework the ranged combat rules simply because of how brutal a disruptor pistol/rifle can be.

As importantly, the melee rules from as far back as Edge of the Empire were/are already designed to account for lightsabers (one sort at least)... it can't be customized, but even without that it's hilariously brutal in a trained user's hands!

 

Bingo.

 

FFG's had two books to note that if the standard combat rules are going to be changed for lightsabers in your average combat encounter.  Even if it's something as simple as "base difficulty is upgraded once due to the extreme danger in using a lightsaber, both to the target and the wielder."  And yet... nothing.  The only special rule where lightsabers are concerned is that EotE and AoR don't have an official skill to cover wielding them.  And since this entire system was devised with all three parts in mind, it's certain they had a pretty good idea of how lightsabers were going to shake out by the time F&D rolled around.

 

Heck, the rules for mass combat are being introduced as an option in supplemental material, as opposed to being in the core rulebook the way some folks were all but demanding when the AoR Beta.  And we've seen no sign of special rules for handling one-on-one dogfights in starfighters or gunslinger duels (such as Han vs. Gallandro in the Han Solo Corporate Sector Trilogy), with both instances being handled (thus far) under the standard rules.

 

As I said earlier, we may see optional rules for lightsaber duels when it's a PC vs. a Nemesis-tier NPC, but it seems that FFG's approach is that each core rulebook contains exactly that, the core rules required to play the game.

 

Also, their general approach falls in line with "Keep It Simple Simon," and not clogging down the game with excessively fiddly rules, even in those cases where folks are clamoring for excessively fiddly rules.  I wouldn't be surprised if the mass combat rules in the GM Kit/Operation Arda are a lot simpler than folks seem to be expecting, and really don't vary all that much from how standard skirmish-scale combat operates.  Heck, could be that it'll simply be a set of guidelines for treating a bunch of troops as a vehicle unit, with scaled-up damage ratings and damage thresholds with a handful of new maneuvers and actions for the groups to take.

 

if any special rules for lightsaber duels are implemented, it'll quite likely be something very simple that doesn't bog the game down, owing more to the system's narrative roots than any desire some might have to see a tactically-heavy method put in place.


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#19 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:14 PM

Actually my lightsaber combat could not be limited to just lightsabers it could be applied to a majority of melee weapons.  Donovan you going to stop playing if they introduce new melee combat rules? lol j/k.  Actually i wonder if they will do just that because they are introducing such a melee intensive weapon? It would make sense since they waited until an adventure book to introduce mass combat of squads and squadrons.  They craft over there at FFG.....

But is there a need for it?

 

Melee combat in general works just fine, so why over complicate it?

 

Unlike WotC and their approach to "special rules just because we can" tactic they took with D&D4e, FFG seems to be generally sticking to the concept of "special rules only if absolutely necessary."  The current rules really can't handle large scale combats of the sort we see at Hoth or Geonosis, with hordes of combatants on each side.  Thus, a set of optional ruls are needed.

 

The current rules can handle lightsaber combat just fine, again with the notion that if you're going up somebody that's skilled with the weapon in a straight-up fight, odds are you're gonna get utterly qwned.  Exactly like Jabba's goons in RotJ or the battle droids in the prequels.  And with the Sense power and existing defensive options (Defensive Stance, Dodge, and Superior Reflexes talents, as well as Guarded Stance maneuver and armor with defense values), there exist means for someone to become capable at defending oneself in a melee battle.


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#20 HappyDaze

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:01 PM

 

The current rules can handle lightsaber combat just fine, again with the notion that if you're going up somebody that's skilled with the weapon in a straight-up fight, odds are you're gonna get utterly qwned.  Exactly like Jabba's goons in RotJ or the battle droids in the prequels.  And with the Sense power and existing defensive options (Defensive Stance, Dodge, and Superior Reflexes talents, as well as Guarded Stance maneuver and armor with defense values), there exist means for someone to become capable at defending oneself in a melee battle.

 

The rules are largely built around getting hit and shrugging off the damage. It's very hard to have enough defensive boosts that an equally competent attacker will have real trouble hitting. The solution up until now has been to have good Soak and push your WT as high as possible while hoping that those defensive options you mention help keep things from getting too bad. You still get hit, just not as hard and (hopefully) not for critical damage. Lightsabers have Breach, so Soak is largely eliminated from defense, and that's a significant factor, but I can't say how FaD will address this issue,


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