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Best Quality Weapons


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#1 kobrain

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 11:23 AM

Specifically ranged weapons. This link by Moxiane on RPG.net came up with this innovative idea, but I'd like to run it by the community first to see how well it functions

http://forum.rpg.net...ty-weapons-suck

I'd also like to see if it can be moved to a acquisition system like in Rogue Trader, and if so how?

Thanks

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#2 Errant Knight

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:16 PM

RT already has availability and acquisition.  I don't see how that system is an improvement at all.  Also, to use the example of a laspistol (what the OP did at that link), the best-craftsmanship would be +10 to hit, +2 damage, and reliable.  That's quite a bit of difference over the standard variety.  I think that system was designed for DH, and I'm not familiar enough with DH to comment on that.


Edited by Errant Knight, 21 May 2014 - 12:47 PM.


#3 Erathia

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 06:36 PM

Getting rid of jamming on ranged weapons is pretty important, and honestly I feel like the ranged weapons being deliberately under-powered compared to melee was very in-line with 40K. Humanity's "basic" weapons are not designed for power, they're designed to be able to be produced on the order of millions per day in order to ship them out to Guardsman across the galaxy. They're expected to advance while firing, so you want las weapons with a large ammo capacity, that are easy to reload, and even if they rely on one in every hundreds hits maybe doing some damage because there will literally be millions flying in each round of "combat".

 

So I'm not in favour of such a change. If you wanted to though, turn the qualities there into an Upgrade, similar to how Lathe-Forged works for melee, and make them only acquirable one at a time and at great expense. That way your PCs can get something good if they so choose.


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#4 kobrain

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 06:22 AM

@Errant Knight, I was more seeing if the costing system that moxiane implemented can be converted to something usable in the acquisition system, since moxiane's system, as it was designed for Dark Heresy, involves thrones rather than an acquisition roll. Also, these would be highly personalised weapons, you are a rouge trader after all, and I was seeing if this type of customisation can be made quantifiable in an economy which doesn't use thrones.
(Soz if grammar/spelling is horrible, posted from mobile)

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#5 Kasatka

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 07:47 AM

I'd say that there's loads of upgrades across all the RT books and existing rules for combined acquisitions so these proposed rules aren't needed for RT.


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#6 Amaimon

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 09:19 AM

You can just use the rules from Deathwatch. Exceptional quality weapons and Master crafted weapons deal +1 and +2 damage, even if they are ranged. 

 

As for crafting rules - they look ok, can be used to make nice toys, but in 90% of cases, it would be wiser to just buy better weapon. In case above i would buy compact bolt pistol (preferably sacristian) for half that price. (Yeah lower magazine, buy fire selector or duplus clips). Fights dont last that long, anyway not the ones, on which you take compact weapon :P



#7 Kasatka

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 10:31 AM

Fights don't last long when your Explorator in Heavy Power Armour duel-wields forearm-mounted micro-storm bolters...


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#8 Magellan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:50 AM

Or just regular storm bolters.


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#9 Errant Knight

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:54 PM

I die a little every day.  If your Explorator is busy equipping with "kewl new toyz" you're not thinking big enough.  This is Rogue Trader.  We negotiate for planets and fight wars for star clusters.  The Storm bolters, or even the twin-linked twin-links with super hyperbole ammuniton and excruciating sights are for the hired help.  Powered armor is for the hired help.  Getting dirty is for the hired help.  Rogue Traders stand around in classy hats while directing the hired help, yes in the midst of melee.  It's what makes the hired help look upon you as invincible gods.


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#10 Erathia

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:22 PM

I die a little every day.  If your Explorator is busy equipping with "kewl new toyz" you're not thinking big enough.  This is Rogue Trader.  We negotiate for planets and fight wars for star clusters.  The Storm bolters, or even the twin-linked twin-links with super hyperbole ammuniton and excruciating sights are for the hired help.  Powered armor is for the hired help.  Getting dirty is for the hired help.  Rogue Traders stand around in classy hats while directing the hired help, yes in the midst of melee.  It's what makes the hired help look upon you as invincible gods.

This isn't entirely true. You need blinged out armour and matching fancy weapons for formal dinners and the like. Do your players go to the Governor's Ball in anything less than tactical assault armour?


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#11 Magellan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 04:33 PM

You're playing the game wrong!

Spoiler


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#12 Kasatka

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 07:24 AM

Haha, i totally agree that due to the nature of RT players shouldn't be using all their time, effort and XP on their own personal combat - they can control empires to do that for them while they recline with a glass of amasec and a dozen planetary governors and imperial officials on vid screens or telepathic-collect-call...


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#13 kobrain

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 01:55 PM

I understand about Rogue Traders not needing weapons, and I understand your dislike of the las pistol example, and how you would prefer a bolt pistol. But how about if you applied these upgrades to that bolt pistol? Or an even better weapon? That example was written with Dark Heresy in mind. I was simply wondering if there was a way of converting cost into an acquisition modifier.


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#14 Amazing Larry

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:53 AM

Haha, i totally agree that due to the nature of RT players shouldn't be using all their time, effort and XP on their own personal combat - they can control empires to do that for them while they recline with a glass of amasec and a dozen planetary governors and imperial officials on vid screens or telepathic-collect-call...

 

Hey if you wanna play it that way that's fine but I think it's boring and in some ways un-40k, ruling planets is one thing but unless you occasionally ride ontop of a tank running down the enemy so you can hit them with your sword nobody is going to take you seriously.

 

At this point my group has twenty five hundred assorted dedicated redshits/mooks/green joes or whatever you want to call them in the form of a guard regiment and they utalize them but they still largely lead from the front. There are like twenty pages in the core rulebook about characters in combat, there are only two for mass combats. Call that an oversight if you will but I call it direction, even when we do mass combats they usually climax with the player characters squaring off against the enemy HQ characters because that's more fun. Nearly everyone in our group basically sees their character as the star of his own 80's action schlock film.


Edited by Amazing Larry, 24 May 2014 - 02:54 AM.


#15 RogalDorn01

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:55 AM

I talked about how to mass combat extensively with Chris Perkins (the head honcho for Dungeons and Dragons) he said that the best way to do it and make it fun is to simply make it so that the enemy force has it's own leaders and such that are directing their forces.  And that through the massed battle the captain and his coterie fight their way into direct combat with the enemy leaders.  Then once you capture or kill them the battle will turn in your favor dramatically...but that the longer it takes for you to see of the enemy command party, the higher the casualties will be on your side.  It's a good way to make it so that the characters still have a reason for all those awesome pistols and power armors.


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#16 Kasatka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:37 AM

Narratively described macro-level combat with the players mechanically describing micro-scale combat with enemy leaders: it is the only way to do mass combat (meaning more than a dozen combatants per side) with any degree of success.


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#17 Kiton

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:11 AM

Or in some cases the players holding off entire hordes while sending some elite (suicide) squad (poor bastards) to fight (explode against) the enemy leaders.

 

AKA the only time that 25kg backpack with 80 shots of lasgun makes any sense at all.

"Lord Captain says my other 24 kilograms 'initiate'!"


Edited by Kiton, 06 June 2014 - 09:13 AM.


#18 Traejun

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:27 AM

I have long thought that the craftsmanship effects on ranged weapon were a bit... underwhelming.  Sure, making weapons reliable or unable to jam/overheat is a REALLY powerful thing on certain weapons (i.e. plasma), but it still seemed like considerable less than what it should be.  

 

I tend alter the effects via house rules depending on the weapon type.  Best las weapons would have different qualities than best plasma, melta, etc...



#19 Notch

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:48 AM

Personally, I apply to best quality ranged weapons the same, simple rule WFRP 2nd edition used: they give you a bonus to BS. That's all, they are simply more accurate (and reliable, of course).

Which means that yes, best quality sniper rifles with omni-scope are going to be awesome, but we all know that snipin' is a good job, mate!

And I'll be honest with ya... my players, do not care for it.

 


Edited by Notch, 06 June 2014 - 10:50 AM.





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