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Dark Charm and Monster Auras.


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#21 Madmartigan

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 10:00 PM

 

 

First things first- I agree with BentoSan- you should ask (looks like you did.)

 

But, if I may- the issue is not whether the hero is allowed to suffer fatigue at all. The issue (that I've been trying to address, and I think you understand) is that the Wendigo's ability doesn't trigger when the hero moves adjacent, because he's treated as a monster, not as a hero.

 

"Freezing" reads: Each time a hero enters a space adjacent to this monster, the hero suffers 1 fatigue.

 

When a DC'd hero moves adjacent to a Wendigo, he is treated as a monster, not a hero. There is no hero moving adjacent, so "Freezing" doesn't trigger.

 

If the Wendigo's ability read: "Each time a figure moves adjacent..." , then the DC's hero would indeed suffer 1 fatigue, and that would be perfectly legitimate.

 

We are in perfect agreement about that point. However, the question now is whether DC'ed heroes, treated as monsters, should be considered to temporarily have no stamina value, like any other monster, and should suffer any legitimate fatigue loss as damage accordingly, which seems easier and more consistent than considering them a special kind of monster which has a stamina value.

 

This would allow the overlord to inflict legitimate damage via movement, but not allow the overlord to use DC to drain a hero's fatigue, which is consistent with the wording of DC.


Edited by Madmartigan, 20 May 2014 - 10:01 PM.

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#22 Zaltyre

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 10:15 PM

And we're in agreement that question is something FFG would have to answer. Personally, I am fine with the interpretation that the "no suffering fatigue" covers:

a) no fatigue to gain extra movement points on the DC move action

b) no exhausting of hero skills, or using any that cost fatigue. As shown by Leoric's hero ability, passive abilities would seem to still be in effect (for example, the Skirmisher's "Keen Edge" would still apply to a DC'd attack.)

 

Otherwise, the OL is allowed to make a move action that includes moving through monster spaces but not hero spaces, whether or not said movements would cause other damage (or in my opinion, fatigue) to the hero. Alternately, he can attack any hero in range (including the hero himself) and make all decisions during the attack, with the exception of the skills caveat listed above. (Also worthy of note, the rulebook does EXPLICITLY state that monsters cannot use "surge: recover 1 fatigue," though I have no idea why an OL would choose to do that.)

 

If it turns out that a hero's stamina becomes temporarily non-existent for the duration of DC (seems a little weird to me, but again, official word pending) I believe everything would stay the same as above, except any time the DC'd hero might have suffered fatigue, he would suffer a wound instead.



#23 BentoSan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:54 AM

You could argue the condition and not the OL is forcing the hero to lose fatigue in this situation... it's really up to FFG though

#24 mm26

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:21 AM

First things first- I agree with BentoSan- you should ask (looks like you did.)
 
But, if I may- the issue is not whether the hero is allowed to suffer fatigue at all. The issue (that I've been trying to address, and I think you understand) is that the Wendigo's ability doesn't trigger when the hero moves adjacent, because he's treated as a monster, not as a hero.
 
"Freezing" reads: Each time a hero enters a space adjacent to this monster, the hero suffers 1 fatigue.
 
When a DC'd hero moves adjacent to a Wendigo, he is treated as a monster, not a hero. There is no hero moving adjacent, so "Freezing" doesn't trigger.
 
If the Wendigo's ability read: "Each time a figure moves adjacent..." , then the DC's hero would indeed suffer 1 fatigue, and that would be perfectly legitimate.
We are in perfect agreement about that point. However, the question now is whether DC'ed heroes, treated as monsters, should be considered to temporarily have no stamina value, like any other monster, and should suffer any legitimate fatigue loss as damage accordingly, which seems easier and more consistent than considering them a special kind of monster which has a stamina value.
 
This would allow the overlord to inflict legitimate damage via movement, but not allow the overlord to use DC to drain a hero's fatigue, which is consistent with the wording of DC.
Even when charmed, heroes have fatigue.

#25 Madmartigan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:29 AM

Even when charmed, heroes have fatigue.

 

On what are you basing that conclusion?


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#26 Zaltyre

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:51 AM

 

Even when charmed, heroes have fatigue.

 

On what are you basing that conclusion?

 

If I had to guess it's the same thing I'm basing it on, which is the fact that nowhere in the rules are monsters "required" to have no stamina value. It just so happens that monsters are designed without stamina. The hero isn't, and nowhere does it state that his stamina disappears when he becomes treated as a monster (or that any of his other attributes change.)

 

It's very similar to how monsters (in general) auto-fail attribute tests because they don't have attributes. However, LT's do have attributes so they don't auto-fail, yet they're still monsters- they're just a special type of monster.


Edited by Zaltyre, 21 May 2014 - 05:51 AM.


#27 Indalecio

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 06:10 AM

From what I got, a DCed hero is treated as a monster, and monsters have no stamina/fatigue, therefore they cannot receive, lose nor spend fatigue. So technically speaking the hero's fatigue/stamina level has no relevance for the duration of Dark Charm. That's how I would interprete the rules.



#28 Madmartigan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 06:32 AM

From what I got, a DCed hero is treated as a monster, and monsters have no stamina/fatigue, therefore they cannot receive, lose nor spend fatigue. So technically speaking the hero's fatigue/stamina level has no relevance for the duration of Dark Charm. That's how I would interprete the rules.

That is my conclusion as well, but we are still debating and waiting for an official word from FFG.


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#29 mm26

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 10:24 AM

Even when charmed, heroes have fatigue.

On what are you basing that conclusion?
If I had to guess it's the same thing I'm basing it on, which is the fact that nowhere in the rules are monsters "required" to have no stamina value. It just so happens that monsters are designed without stamina. The hero isn't, and nowhere does it state that his stamina disappears when he becomes treated as a monster (or that any of his other attributes change.)
 
It's very similar to how monsters (in general) auto-fail attribute tests because they don't have attributes. However, LT's do have attributes so they don't auto-fail, yet they're still monsters- they're just a special type of monster.
Pretty much. There's no reason to believe the syllogism of, "monsters don't have stamina. Therefore, heroes as monsters don't either."

No monster is named Elder Mom. But he doesn't change his name. The no spending stamina is clearly to avoid using the card to burn out their staminan and do a more powerful attack. For a hero, that is a good/bad tradeoff. For an overlord controlling a hero, it's only good/good.There's no reason to extend that any farther than that.

#30 Madmartigan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 10:57 AM

There's no reason to believe the syllogism of, "monsters don't have stamina. Therefore, heroes as monsters don't either."

The syllogism would be:

P1: All monsters have no stamina value.

P2: DC'ed heroes are treated as monsters.

C: Therefore DC'ed heroes are treated as having no stamina value.

The argument is valid (if the premises are true, the conclusion must be), and according to the rules as written, there is no specific evidence suggesting that it is not also sound (all premises are true). So we are waiting on the ruling from FFG, whether or not P1 or P2 is in fact false.


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#31 Zaltyre

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:20 AM

 

There's no reason to believe the syllogism of, "monsters don't have stamina. Therefore, heroes as monsters don't either."

The syllogism would be:

P1: All monsters have no stamina value.

P2: DC'ed heroes are treated as monsters.

C: Therefore DC'ed heroes are treated as having no stamina value.

The argument is valid (if the premises are true, the conclusion must be), and according to the rules as written, there is no specific evidence suggesting that it is not also sound (all premises are true). So we are waiting on the ruling from FFG, whether or not P1 or P2 is in fact false.

 

No monsters have hero abilities.

Leoric, when DC;d is treated as a monster.

Therefore, DC'd Leoric does not have a hero ability.

 

However, this conclusion has been officially ruled false.

 

EDIT: Probably a poor example, because monsters have "monster abilities." However, I agree with BentoSan (below,) monsters are not required by definition to have no stamina, they simply happen to not have any. 


Edited by Zaltyre, 21 May 2014 - 11:35 AM.


#32 BentoSan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:25 AM

 

Even when charmed, heroes have fatigue.

 

On what are you basing that conclusion?

 

 

The fact that no where does it in the rules, cards or erratas does is say they have no fatigue.

 

 

It can "feel" like they have no fatigue but that does not necessarily mean they do not have fatigue.

 

Unless is in the rules clearly states monsters do not have fatigue, then i am mistaken.


Edited by BentoSan, 21 May 2014 - 11:26 AM.


#33 mm26

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:26 PM

 

There's no reason to believe the syllogism of, "monsters don't have stamina. Therefore, heroes as monsters don't either."

The syllogism would be:

P1: All monsters have no stamina value.

P2: DC'ed heroes are treated as monsters.

C: Therefore DC'ed heroes are treated as having no stamina value.

The argument is valid (if the premises are true, the conclusion must be), and according to the rules as written, there is no specific evidence suggesting that it is not also sound (all premises are true). So we are waiting on the ruling from FFG, whether or not P1 or P2 is in fact false.

P2 isn't false. As others have said, the rules don't define monsters as being things without fatigue. They just don't have it. You're just using certifiably bad logic.

 

I don't get Christmas gifts on the 4th of July. I didn't get a Christmas gift today. Therefore, today must be July 4th?


Edited by mm26, 21 May 2014 - 12:35 PM.


#34 Electris

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:03 PM

1. Let's suppose I, as the overlord, DC a hero who is bleeding. I force him to move one space during a move action. Moving to one space does not cost a fatigue. The bleeding effect causes the hero to suffer one fatigue. Therefore I, as the overlord, did not force the hero to suffer a fatigue.

 

2. Now suppose, with the DC hero, instead I force him to use a skill (which is against the RAW). To do so would require him to suffer a fatigue caused only by the Overlord. Since I cannot force the hero to suffer a fatigue I cannot use the skill.

 

3. Suppose I use a move action for the DC hero that moves him into a *swamp* tile (see note below). The *swamp* tile causes any figure to lose 2 stamina. The tile causes the hero to lose the stamina, not the Overlord. The Overlord merely performed a move action which does not cost stamina.

 

4. Using no. 3 change the wording to hero. The *swamp* tile causes any hero to lose 2 stamina. The figure would not lose any stamina because the DC hero is being treated as a monster while under DC.

 

Note: Swamp tiles don't exist....yet.



#35 mm26

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:50 PM

I think it can be understood as simply as:

 

Heroes have options to improve their actions (move, attack) by using up a limited resource. The limited nature of the resource is the trade-off for them to achieve their benefit. If an Overlord assumes temporary control, that trade-off doesn't exist. They benefit by improving the action and by using up the hero's resource. So you disallow it.

 

There's nothing special about stamina as such. You can walk a hero into a lava pit, causing them to take damage. In the example above where you entered a swamp, I see no reason why that would not be totally fine. 



#36 griton

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:29 PM

You can walk a hero into a lava pit, causing them to take damage. In the example above where you entered a swamp, I see no reason why that would not be totally fine. 

It depends on if you're using #3 or #4. In #3, it refers to any figure (the same way lava does), in #4, it only refers to heroes, so a hero treated as a monster wouldn't fulfill that condition. That's the key point he was trying to make.



#37 Madmartigan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:55 PM

P2 isn't false. As others have said, the rules don't define monsters as being things without fatigue. They just don't have it. You're just using certifiably bad logic.

 

I don't get Christmas gifts on the 4th of July. I didn't get a Christmas gift today. Therefore, today must be July 4th?

 

Your example is committing the categorical syllogistic fallacy of exclusive premises, and is therefore invalid. My argument as presented is committing no fallacies, and is ostensibly valid and sound, if both premises are true.

 

The reason I have asked FFG for clarification is because the quote above from page 13 of the core rules can be interpreted as implying P1. This implication may be unintended or false, we just have to wait and see.


"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#38 Madmartigan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 04:00 PM

I received a response and have corresponded back an forth with Nathan Hajek Creative Content Director of FFG. The conversation went as follows:

 

Me:

There is a spirited discussion about Dark Charm going on at the moment: http://community.fan...-monster-auras/

 

My understanding now is that a DC'ed hero is considered a monster for one action, which can only be a move action or an attack action. And that the DC'ed hero otherwise has all of the properties and restrictions of a monster, so can only be affected by affects that target monsters, and cannot be affected by any affect that targets a hero. Also, a DC'ed hero, being treated as a monster, temporarily has no stamina value, and so cannot suffer fatigue to use skills or hero abilities, and will suffer damage whenever affected by an affect which targets a figure or monster and causes fatigue loss.

Essentially Dark Charm, changes a hero into a monster for all intents and purposes, for one move or attack action only.

Is this correct?

Best Regards

 

Nathan Hajek:

Yes, I’ve been watching that thread grow. I hope this is helpful. 
 
First of all, getting back to the intent of the card, “You cannot force him to suffer [fatigue]” is a rough equivalent to the rule that a hero cannot suffer fatigue if he already has fatigue equal to his stamina. If the fatigue is a cost for something else to happen, the overlord cannot force that hero to suffer it. However, if the fatigue is a reaction to something else happening, the hero would suffer it. 
 
Now, to the issue of a monster not having a Stamina value. On page 13 of the rule book, under “Fatigue and Stamina,” it states, “Since monsters do not have a Stamina value, if a monster suffers any amount of fatigue, it suffers that amount of damage instead.” This is saying, “because A is true, B must happen.” However, when a hero performs an attack or move action as if it were a monster, it does have a Stamina value. There is no rule (that I could find) that says that monsters cannot have a Stamina value and Dark Charm does not say that the hero loses his Stamina value. Therefore, the “if, then” statement of monsters suffering fatigue as damage does not apply to heroes-as-monsters because they do have a stamina value. 
 
A hero treated as a monster can suffer fatigue and will suffer it as fatigue (unless he already had fatigue equal to his Stamina). 
 
Thanks,
 
Nathan Hajek:
Just to make sure I cover everything in your question, everything else you stated seems to be correct. While under the effect of Dark Charm, a hero is not treated as a hero, he is treated as a monster.
 
Me:
So you have presented two distinct circumstances pertaining to Dark Charm and heroes suffering fatigue:

1. "If the fatigue is a cost for something else to happen, the overlord cannot force that hero to suffer it."

I interpret this to mean that the overlord cannot make the hero actively spend fatigue. (activating skills, gaining movement points, etc.)
 
2. "If the fatigue is a reaction to something else happening, the hero would suffer it."
I interpret this to mean that the overlord can cause a DC'ed hero to passively suffer fatigue as a secondary effect of the performed move or attack action. (entering spaces, bleeding, etc.)
 
So, the correct interpretation of Dark Charm would be:
 
A DC'ed hero is considered a monster for one action, which can only be a move action or an attack action. The DC'ed hero can only be affected by affects that can target monsters, and cannot be affected by any affect that targets a hero. Also, a DC'ed hero, cannot suffer fatigue to use skills, hero abilities, or to gain movement points, but may suffer fatigue from other affects.
 
Is this correct?
 
Thanks.
 
Nathan Hajek:
Yes, that sounds correct.

 

There you have it folks. P1 is indeed false, according to FFG, and my above argument is invalid. My esteemed colleagues are correct that a DC'ed hero is essentially considered a monster that happens to have a Stamina value.

 

Cheers to all.


Edited by Madmartigan, 25 May 2014 - 06:50 PM.

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