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#1 Krynn007

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 04:00 AM

Played my first game last night, and a few more questions came up.

My buddy flew into the side of my transport. He rolled for damage. I move the transport 1 straight. Are the bases still considered to be touching?

Here another scenario.

He Flys into the side of my transport. According to the rules it says standard rules from the core rule book apply, when dealing with plastic bases overlapping.
Which basically says the ships cannot attack one Another,but when it collided with the back base, can it still shot at the front base?
We played it as though you can't.

I think there were a couple other questions, but for now that is all I can remember
3 xwing, 2 awings, 2 bwings,1 ywing, 1 Falcon, 1hwk, 1 ewing, 2 z95, 1 GR-75 medium transport, 1 CR90 Corvette ,4 tie fighters, 2 interceptors, 1 imperial aces, 2 bombers, 1 tie adv, 1 shuttle, 1 Firespray, 2 phantom, 1 tie defender

#2 SableGryphon

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:08 AM

1) No, they are no longer considered touching because the second maneuver didn't overlap (which would have been bad for him anyway)

 

2) In order to determine if he can shoot the front, you have to check if center base to center base passed through the blue line. If it does, it can't shoot the front. Now, I believe there's a super tiny spot where it doesn't pass throught he center line but you aren't touching the front base (for small ships), in which case I have no idea if he can shoot the front base of not. However, since the moment the transport moves they technically aren't touching anyway, I'm not sure it matters.


Come on down to Sable's Shuttle Emporium for all your Alabaster Void Bison needs!

 

5 TIE Advanced, 6 TIE Bombers, 1 TIE Defender, 10 TIE Fighters, 6 TIE Interceptors, 1 TIE Phantom, 4 Firespray-31s, 5 Lambdas

5 A-Wings, 5 B-Wings, 6 X-Wings, 4 Y-Wings, 4 HWK-290s, 2 YT-1300s, 2 GR-75 Medium Transports, 1 CR-90 Corvette


#3 Krynn007

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:31 AM

Back to my first question
He could have fired at me then.
We figured since technicalY the bases were touching and I moved only 1, we assumed they were still touching.

(Guess if that was the case though, I would have blown him up)

Still a little unclear for the second question

Edited by Krynn007, 15 May 2014 - 06:32 AM.

3 xwing, 2 awings, 2 bwings,1 ywing, 1 Falcon, 1hwk, 1 ewing, 2 z95, 1 GR-75 medium transport, 1 CR90 Corvette ,4 tie fighters, 2 interceptors, 1 imperial aces, 2 bombers, 1 tie adv, 1 shuttle, 1 Firespray, 2 phantom, 1 tie defender

#4 Krynn007

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:10 AM

Transport flying north
My opponent flies from West to east and hits the back base.

His firing arch is facing east. Can he shoot the front or back part?

I assume when measuring center to center, you must do so from the firing arch direction?

Same scenerio, but opponent is now facing north east, and collides with the back base.
Can he shoot the front?
3 xwing, 2 awings, 2 bwings,1 ywing, 1 Falcon, 1hwk, 1 ewing, 2 z95, 1 GR-75 medium transport, 1 CR90 Corvette ,4 tie fighters, 2 interceptors, 1 imperial aces, 2 bombers, 1 tie adv, 1 shuttle, 1 Firespray, 2 phantom, 1 tie defender

#5 Sergovan

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:14 AM

Transport flying north
My opponent flies from West to east and hits the back base.

His firing arch is facing east. Can he shoot the front or back part?

I assume when measuring center to center, you must do so from the firing arch direction?

Same scenerio, but opponent is now facing north east, and collides with the back base.
Can he shoot the front?

It depends on if the line you draw from center to center crosses through the blue mid line. If you are targeting the front section, but the C to C line goes thru the blue midway line, you can't target the front section (it  is blocked by the rear section). If the C to C line does not pass through the blue mid line, you can target the front section.


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wing, 2 Yt-1300, 3 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 CR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 1 Tie Phantom, 1 Defender

Tournament results: 11 of 11; 3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; 12 of 28


#6 Krynn007

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 09:40 AM

Ok.
You see, we were looking at the core rule book,and all it says is is when ships bases were colliding they can't shoot at each other, so in this case I assumed that the key word here is ship.
That and /or the base was considered as one

Can't wait to play again

Edited by Krynn007, 15 May 2014 - 09:40 AM.


#7 Bilisknir

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 09:53 AM

Krynn007, I think perhaps you misunderstand the nature of a collision a little.

Assume ships A with pilot skill 1 and B with pilot skill 2. If A overlaps B when he performs his manoeuvre then they have collided, as such A loses his action. Now B gets to manoeuvre, if his manoeuvre is such that his base does not overlap A at the end of the move they are no longer in base contact, and can thus shoot each other.


Bilisknir corrupt ver of Bilskirnir (Old Norse "lightning-crack"). The hall of the god Thor in Norse mythology.

Rebel: 8 X-Wing, 9 A-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 8 B-Wing, 2 YT1300, 3 HWK-290, 2 GR-75 Transport, 1 Corellian Corvette, 8 Z-95, 4 E-wing

Imperials: 9 Tie/ln, 10 Tie Int, 5 Tie Bomber, 3 Tie Adv, 2 Firespray-31, 2 Lambda-Class Shuttle, 4 Tie Defender, 4 Tie Phantom


#8 Forgottenlore

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:42 AM

It seems like the bulk of you are mis-understanding his question.

It does need a FAQ, but until then I would say that if you overlapped the ship and are still touching it (by the rules definition) that you cannot attack any portion of the ship.

Also, didn't the new FAQ change the rules for touching so that it persisted from round to round if the 2 ships couldn't get clear (stationary shuttles and all)? I thought there was a change in wording, I don't remember.

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#9 Bilisknir

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:54 AM

Forgottenlore - that would be true but neither of the Huge ships have a stationary manoeuvre. So the only way they can not move is to have been rammed by (or previously rammed) another Huge ship and choose a manoeuvre which leads to a continued overlap. Excluding that rather rare situation, the huge ship will move and thus will not be in base contact with a small or large ship in the combat phase.


Bilisknir corrupt ver of Bilskirnir (Old Norse "lightning-crack"). The hall of the god Thor in Norse mythology.

Rebel: 8 X-Wing, 9 A-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 8 B-Wing, 2 YT1300, 3 HWK-290, 2 GR-75 Transport, 1 Corellian Corvette, 8 Z-95, 4 E-wing

Imperials: 9 Tie/ln, 10 Tie Int, 5 Tie Bomber, 3 Tie Adv, 2 Firespray-31, 2 Lambda-Class Shuttle, 4 Tie Defender, 4 Tie Phantom


#10 Forgottenlore

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:11 AM

The OP just laid out a scenario where it happens. The huge ships are so big and so slow that they can move forward, complete the move, and a ship that was touching them before is still in contact with the base.

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#11 Krynn007

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 01:13 PM

So what is the census?

If you hit a huge ship from the side, and back off until you are no longer overlapping, then the huge ship moves straight, technically, you would still be touchin, would you consider the ship who first collided, now able to shoot the huge ship?
If not then he could shoot the front part so long as the center to center does not cross the the blue line

Edited by Krynn007, 15 May 2014 - 01:20 PM.

3 xwing, 2 awings, 2 bwings,1 ywing, 1 Falcon, 1hwk, 1 ewing, 2 z95, 1 GR-75 medium transport, 1 CR90 Corvette ,4 tie fighters, 2 interceptors, 1 imperial aces, 2 bombers, 1 tie adv, 1 shuttle, 1 Firespray, 2 phantom, 1 tie defender

#12 Bilisknir

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:47 AM

The OP just laid out a scenario where it happens. The huge ships are so big and so slow that they can move forward, complete the move, and a ship that was touching them before is still in contact with the base.

 

As from the rules the only way you can be in base contact with a model is to have overlapped it during the movement phase. If the Huge overlaps the small ship in its movement phase the small ship is destroyed. So in the example given by the OP they are not in base contact. So can shoot each other.


Bilisknir corrupt ver of Bilskirnir (Old Norse "lightning-crack"). The hall of the god Thor in Norse mythology.

Rebel: 8 X-Wing, 9 A-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 8 B-Wing, 2 YT1300, 3 HWK-290, 2 GR-75 Transport, 1 Corellian Corvette, 8 Z-95, 4 E-wing

Imperials: 9 Tie/ln, 10 Tie Int, 5 Tie Bomber, 3 Tie Adv, 2 Firespray-31, 2 Lambda-Class Shuttle, 4 Tie Defender, 4 Tie Phantom


#13 Krynn007

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:47 AM

Maybe im being too technical then
But my thought was they are technically still touching
3 xwing, 2 awings, 2 bwings,1 ywing, 1 Falcon, 1hwk, 1 ewing, 2 z95, 1 GR-75 medium transport, 1 CR90 Corvette ,4 tie fighters, 2 interceptors, 1 imperial aces, 2 bombers, 1 tie adv, 1 shuttle, 1 Firespray, 2 phantom, 1 tie defender

#14 dbmeboy

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:50 AM

The OP just laid out a scenario where it happens. The huge ships are so big and so slow that they can move forward, complete the move, and a ship that was touching them before is still in contact with the base.

 
As from the rules the only way you can be in base contact with a model is to have overlapped it during the movement phase. If the Huge overlaps the small ship in its movement phase the small ship is destroyed. So in the example given by the OP they are not in base contact. So can shoot each other.
Except that the part of the FAQ that said that has been removed and at least one exception to that has been confirmed... Making it much less clear.

#15 Forgottenlore

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 11:27 AM

Which is what I said 6 posts ago, the FAQ was changed, implying they can remain touching from turn to turn.

Plus, even under the OLD ruling, if the first ship overlapped the second, and then the second executed a maneuver that didn't overlap the first, but left them still I'm base to base contact, then they were still considered touching that round because they had overlapped earlier in the round.

Edited by Forgottenlore, 16 May 2014 - 11:28 AM.

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#16 Kpuc

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 01:20 PM

Plus, even under the OLD ruling, if the first ship overlapped the second, and then the second executed a maneuver that didn't overlap the first, but left them still In base to base contact, then they were still considered touching that round because they had overlapped earlier in the round.

Sorry to jump in and ask, but does bases touching not count as an overlap? As I thought I understood, In the first example, the opponent's ship collided with the GR-75 (and couldn't shoot at the huge ship because they were in theory vertical to each other). But then the GR-75 moved one space and still had the back base in contact with the ship. Doesn't that mean that the GR-75 is now overlapping the smaller ship, thus destroying it?

I'm still trying to figure these huge ships rules out.

Edited by Kpuc, 16 May 2014 - 01:41 PM.


#17 Forgottenlore

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 01:55 PM

Just being in contact doesn't necessarily mean that the ships overlapped. If the base can be placed flat on the table then it isn't overlapping another ship's base, even if the 2 bases are in physical contact. It is very very rare, but there are a couple ways it can happen. In fact, the rules for overlapping specifically say that the small ship had to be placed so that it was no longer overlapping the huge ship, so if the huge ship just slid forward there is no way it could have overlapped the small ship.

 

The old FAQ had language saying something like, two ships are only "touching" (rulebook definition of the word) if at least one of them overlapped the other that round. This meant (again, in the old FAQ) that if a ship overlapped a shuttle and then the shuttle performed a stationary maneuver, the 2 ships were still "touching" (again, rulebook definition) and could not shoot each other, even though the shuttle didn't overlap the first ship with its maneuver. It also meant (still, old FAQ) that if 2 shuttles overlapped and were touching in one round, and then both of them performed the stationary maneuver on the next round, that they were no longer "touching" on the second round, even though both bases were still in physical contact with each other.

 

Now, the NEW FAQ removed the wording about overlapping that made all that happen, suggesting that the ruling has changed, but it didn't really replace it with anything to make it clear what is supposed to happen now. I seem to remember reading, when the new FAQ came out, that the implication was that "touching" could continue from round to round until the ships actually separated, but I cant find the new wording now. Anyone?

 

With the OP's situation. The small ship overlapped the side of a huge ship, was moved back and took damage. At that point, the two ships were "touching" according to the rules. Then the transport moved straight ahead. The geometry of the situation means that the transport can't be overlapping the small ship because when the small ship moved it had to be placed where it was no longer overlapping the huge ship (boy, hope that made sense), but because the huge ship is so, well, huge, and slow the small ship was still in physical contact with the huge ship, creating a situation similar to the shuttles I talked about above.

 

Lacking any further clarifying statements in the FAQ, I would probably continue to rule it the old way. The round that the overlap occurred the 2 ships are considered touching as along as they are in physical contact, but latter rounds they are not unless a new overlap happens.

 

For the OP, I would also assume that you cannot target the fore section of the ship if you are touching the aft, and vice-versa as the rules seem to care about the ship, not the section.


Edited by Forgottenlore, 16 May 2014 - 01:58 PM.

  • Kpuc likes this

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#18 dbmeboy

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:23 PM

Now, the NEW FAQ removed the wording about overlapping that made all that happen, suggesting that the ruling has changed, but it didn't really replace it with anything to make it clear what is supposed to happen now. I seem to remember reading, when the new FAQ came out, that the implication was that "touching" could continue from round to round until the ships actually separated, but I cant find the new wording now. Anyone?

 

It doesn't specifically say that, but it does address one situation where that can happen (the shuttle and its 0 move) and says that counts as still touching.



#19 Krynn007

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:41 PM

Well from what I also remember, now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was in the core rule book, but it defined that when ships collided, that technicaly, they didn't collide, but was considered to be in 3d space, and were actually flying over one another, so therfore that is why they can't shoot at each other.

If that is the case in the scenerio in which I laid out, then the shuttle would be flying over /under the transport, even after the transport moved, since it's so slow.
Which explains why the base are still physically touching.

With new ships comes a lot of new situations that come with them, and in sure when they play test, not all situations come up.

I feel as though this is one of them.

With the new huge ships, come new questions which are not covered, and I'm thinking after the corvette we will see a new faq.Hopefully to address some of these new situations
3 xwing, 2 awings, 2 bwings,1 ywing, 1 Falcon, 1hwk, 1 ewing, 2 z95, 1 GR-75 medium transport, 1 CR90 Corvette ,4 tie fighters, 2 interceptors, 1 imperial aces, 2 bombers, 1 tie adv, 1 shuttle, 1 Firespray, 2 phantom, 1 tie defender

#20 dandirk

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 07:34 AM

The current FAQ still seems to only consider ships "touching" if they overlapped that round...

 

overlApping inline ships - Page 4 of FAQ

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and 
facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute 
the same unobstructed straight [ ] maneuver during the next round, the ships 
do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they 
remain physically adjacent.

 

 
 
While one could say this is a very specific FAQ for that specific scenario, yet I take away the distinction that ships are only considered touching if they overlap that round.  Shuttles moving 0 would not be considered overlapping nor touching if they overlapped the round before.
 
As for the OP question... I would consider ships still touching since they overlapped that same round.  At least if the touching stayed on the same section (blue line).
 
Now can the ship target the aft section while "touching" the fore section....  I would say yes as long as normal targeting rules apply... aka center of small ship to center of section is not obstructed by blue line...





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