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#1 lord inquisitor Iannise

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 02:51 AM

Realistically what psy rating would Malcador the Sigillite, Magnus the Red and the Emperor have if stated in dark heresy? 



#2 ColArana

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 09:55 AM

Well, there's a Lord of Change and an Alpha level Psyker in the Ascension book that have Psy Ratings of 9 and 14 respectively. So I'd wager Magnus might have something around Psy Rating 20 or so? Emperor even higher than that. I don't even know if you could put the Emperor's "Psy Rating" into Dark Heresy without making it sound ridiculous.



#3 Lynata

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:27 PM

It also comes down to interpretation, meaning how much of the "stories" you read about such famous character you take at face value, or whether one considers that maybe they'd actually have a lower rating, but are capable of artificially boosting it for greater power ... either with considerably powerful daemonic pacts (Magnus) or the sacrifice of a thousand psychic souls a day (Emperor).

 

In short: make something up that sounds right to you? ;)


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#4 Fgdsfg

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:02 PM

I would say that these people aren't on the scale as presented in the WH40kRP rules.

It is akin to asking for character stats for a Tyranid hive-ship. It's just not possible.

Malcador the Sigilite and Magnus the Red are both incredibly powerful, Magnus even moreso after becoming a Daemon Prince. If you absolutely have to stat them, I'd say anywhere between 20 to 40.

The God-Emperor? We are talking about a person with the psychic power to manifest a warp beacon visible from across the entire galaxy (and beyond). Psy Rating... 4000? 5000? More? Does it really matter, at that point?


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#5 Cogniczar

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:07 PM

The God-Emperor? We are talking about a person with the psychic power to manifest a warp beacon visible from across the entire galaxy (and beyond). Psy Rating... 4000? 5000? More? Does it really matter, at that point?

 

He doesn't manifest it. He just directs the Astronomican.

 

Either way, the Emperor is one of the 'New Men', an evolved psyker. His gift is innate and supine, with no risk to warp exposure. Like Wyrds, who are also able to control a single power accurately, he has no rating.

 

Now the other two would probably be psy rating 10-15. One thing to remember is that psychic strength in the rpg is measured in psy rating, willpower, and technique mastery. These guys don't need 21+ psy rating. Their overall Intellect, willpower, Psy rating and psychic discipline mastery is measured up to meet these legendary figures.



#6 Fgdsfg

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 01:10 AM

 

The God-Emperor? We are talking about a person with the psychic power to manifest a warp beacon visible from across the entire galaxy (and beyond). Psy Rating... 4000? 5000? More? Does it really matter, at that point?

 

He doesn't manifest it. He just directs the Astronomican.

 

[...]

 

When did that change? Not too long ago (could be a couple of years since I last read up on the Astronomican), he definitely projected the Light of the Astronomican, I even saw discussions on how that'd work during the Great Crusade, if he just took the Light with him as he travelled or what.

I looked it up on Lexicanum when I read your message, and saw that basically the whole fluff around the Astronomican has turned into condensed dumb.

  • Apparently it was now constructed in m30. At that point, where did the God-Emperor even find 10 000 psykers, let alone replenish the ~100 (which is a lot lower than it used to be) lost daily?
  • If only those that are turned into Acolytes by the AAT count - and out of those, only those that achieve a "mystic state", becoming Chosen - how can there possibly be enough psykers in the galaxy? Previously, mass amounts of low-grade or dangerous psykers were forced to serve in the Choir of the Astronomican, essentially press-ganged. Now it's special snowflakes amongst special snowflakes that achieve a chosen position amongst the chosen of those recruited by the AAT.
  • fgsdsfgmnasdkjkalksndaåsdpoi
  • This is the 6th Ed. Codex and the Horus Heresy abortion of a book's fault, isn't it?

I'm going to stick to the non-stupid, Emperor-projected, rogue psyker-eating Astronomican, I think.


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#7 Cogniczar

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 05:31 AM

When did that change? Not too long ago (could be a couple of years since I last read up on the Astronomican), he definitely projected the Light of the Astronomican, I even saw discussions on how that'd work during the Great Crusade, if he just took the Light with him as he travelled or what.

 

 

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the citations are accurate on the Lexicanum. Starting from 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000, the Astronomican has always been manifested by the Adeptus Astronomica. Page 140 if your interested, or I can send you a screen shot later if you'd like. 

 

The confusion with the Astronomican is that the Emperor always 'guided' it. Lots of folks took that to meaning he originated it, but it was never that. 

 

 

  • Apparently it was now constructed in m30. At that point, where did the God-Emperor even find 10 000 psykers, let alone replenish the ~100 (which is a lot lower than it used to be) lost daily?
  • If only those that are turned into Acolytes by the AAT count - and out of those, only those that achieve a "mystic state", becoming Chosen - how can there possibly be enough psykers in the galaxy? Previously, mass amounts of low-grade or dangerous psykers were forced to serve in the Choir of the Astronomican, essentially press-ganged. Now it's special snowflakes amongst special snowflakes that achieve a chosen position amongst the chosen of those recruited by the AAT.
  • fgsdsfgmnasdkjkalksndaåsdpoi
  • This is the 6th Ed. Codex and the Horus Heresy abortion of a book's fault, isn't it?

I'm going to stick to the non-stupid, Emperor-projected, rogue psyker-eating Astronomican, I think.

 

 

While I can't comment on the timing of the formation of the Astronomica in m30, the ten-thousand strong corp of psykers maintaining the Astronomica has been established from 1st edition. In this book as well is the establishment that the chosen shave their heads in preperation of their implants. Note that while the Astronomicon takes up to 100 lives a day, the members that comprise it's chorus last for days, weeks and months at at time. Lastly, the Astronomica is comprised of a vast, vast body of young supplicants to provide future generations of chosen.

 

Now I don't want to nay-say your opinion, but i do have to point out - This is no 6th edition chicanery or horus heresy redux. This is how it's always been. =D

 

Edit:

 

Also, do remember the great majority of sacrifices of lesser psykers goes to fueling the Golden Throne. You might be mixing those two up.


Edited by Cogniczar, 16 May 2014 - 05:33 AM.


#8 Lynata

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 05:49 AM

To be fair, you could interpret it as the Emperor requiring 10k psykers *now*, which is even a bit more grimdark as it hints at a possibility of the Emperor of M41 being a dessicated husk with no will of its own, only acting as a conduit through which the choir is focusing the Astronomican. There is a line in the 6E Codex about the Golden Throne requiring more and more psyker sacrifices with every day now to prevent it from failing, so obviously something must be broken.
 
That's just a silly "what if" theory I entertain about various aspects of Imperial propaganda, though.
 
Best take a look for yourself - I'm no expert when it comes to the Astronomican, but I do know that Lexicanum isn't that reliable as a source itself and may at times miss critical details from one souce because the editor had to choose between two conflicting accounts (such as the "merged" Deathwatch article which contains information from both GW's and FFG's version), and at other times may even make stuff up (I recall a made-up statement about Miriael Sabathiel).
 
So, if in doubt, hunt down the sources (this is where Lexicanum comes in handy) and then take a look for yourself. It is entirely possible that GW sticks to a different interpretation of the Astronomican than what the Lexicanum article currently says.
 
I agree about the snowflake-vs-snowflake issue, though, which seems to be a new trend for the fluff as a whole, in GW's books as well. -_-
 
 
[edit] eldar'd by Cogniczar, and with some clarifications on the subject it seems. Thanks! :)

Edited by Lynata, 16 May 2014 - 05:51 AM.

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#9 ColArana

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 10:06 AM

 

 

I'd argue they probably would need relatively high Psy Ratings too. In one of the Horus Heresy novels (forgotten which one it's been awhile), the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.



#10 Cogniczar

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:59 PM

 

 

 

the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.

 

 

'powerful as a supernova' is hyperbole in the Horus Heresy. You'll find similar descriptors in any number of psychic powers. And if your referencing the Fall of Prospero, it was Tzeentch that devestated the planet. I'm sorry to say, but the psy rating mechanic simply doesn't hold up with literary prose. In order to do so, you'd clearly get into dragon ball z meme times with, 'over 9000' quotes.


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#11 Fgdsfg

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:04 PM

Well that's the issue, isn't it? You can likely measure the power in mechanical terms with Psy Rating, but at that point, why would you? It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND!


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#12 ColArana

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:04 PM

 

 

 

 

the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.

 

 

'powerful as a supernova' is hyperbole in the Horus Heresy. You'll find similar descriptors in any number of psychic powers. And if your referencing the Fall of Prospero, it was Tzeentch that devestated the planet. I'm sorry to say, but the psy rating mechanic simply doesn't hold up with literary prose. In order to do so, you'd clearly get into dragon ball z meme times with, 'over 9000' quotes.

 

 

Didn't the Emperor once summon a Warp Storm that raged across an entire sector? I actually don't think creating a supernova-level blast of power would have been beyond a psyker of his caliber, so I don't actually think that was hyperbole in that instance. He IS the God Emperor, who can fight equally with all four Chaos Gods at once. 

 

 

Major point being, you could have a WPB in Dark Heresy of 50, and you still probably wouldn't be able to do 1/10th of what guys like Magnus or the Emperor could do, if said individual only had a Psy Rating of 8.


Edited by ColArana, 16 May 2014 - 04:06 PM.


#13 Cogniczar

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:12 PM

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is a warp anomaly. And causing anything with the strength of a supernova would...welp, destory everything around the psyker, including the psyker himself. A supernova is an exploding star, ya know? As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.



#14 lord inquisitor Iannise

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:59 PM

 

 

 

 

 

the Emperor was noted as creating a blast as powerful as a supernova, and Magnus devastated a planet. Sorry to say, but I'd wager you'd want a pretty high Psy-rating as well as high-as-Warp willpower to pull off something like that.

 

 

'powerful as a supernova' is hyperbole in the Horus Heresy. You'll find similar descriptors in any number of psychic powers. And if your referencing the Fall of Prospero, it was Tzeentch that devestated the planet. I'm sorry to say, but the psy rating mechanic simply doesn't hold up with literary prose. In order to do so, you'd clearly get into dragon ball z meme times with, 'over 9000' quotes.

 

 

Didn't the Emperor once summon a Warp Storm that raged across an entire sector? I actually don't think creating a supernova-level blast of power would have been beyond a psyker of his caliber, so I don't actually think that was hyperbole in that instance. He IS the God Emperor, who can fight equally with all four Chaos Gods at once. 

 

 

Major point being, you could have a WPB in Dark Heresy of 50, and you still probably wouldn't be able to do 1/10th of what guys like Magnus or the Emperor could do, if said individual only had a Psy Rating of 8.

 

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.



#15 Cogniczar

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 05:04 PM

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.

 

 

The point was it's irrelevant. No one is accredited in the canon as having manifested a warp storm or causing a super nova. =P


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#16 Lynata

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:54 PM

As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.

 

And let's just say that some of the source material, depending on where you look, may be worlds apart in its portrayal of said combat abilities.

 

"At the fortified city of Reillis, a Human settlement unwilling to accept the Emperor's beneficent will, the defending army used secret tunnels to infiltrate behind the besieging Imperial army and hundreds of shock troops swamped the command encampment. Unprepared and unarmoured, the Emperor and Horus fought back to back until a plasma blast stunned Horus and sent him staggering to the floor. The Emperor stood over the Primarch and refused to give ground until reinforcements arrived to drive their attackers back. On the Ork-infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge, frenzied Greenskin warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him."
- WD #268 : Index Astartes, The Luna Wolves
 
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#17 Cogniczar

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:40 PM

Not sure where you were going with that example Lynata. =P

 

That's one of the examples that demonstrates the Emperor's distinct non-use of combat psychic powers, preferring instead more martial disciplines. This trend continues with the Emperor's fight against Gharkul Blackfang where he decapitated the great warboss at the spearhead of a host of custodians. 

 

All in all, as we gain more ensight into the Emperor, and more material on him, he is progressively becoming clear as a psyker focused heavily on Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis. His preference for martial combat and immortility coupled with his technological powers (Mechanicum prologue), paint him to be a very impressive psyker, but no where near the ludicrous claims most fans attribute him (his greatest use of his powers being the aforementioned directing of the Astronomican). 


Edited by Cogniczar, 16 May 2014 - 07:41 PM.


#18 Lynata

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 08:30 PM

Not sure where you were going with that example Lynata. =P That's one of the examples that demonstrates the Emperor's distinct non-use of combat psychic powers, preferring instead more martial disciplines.

 

It's an example of both a Primarch and the Emperor being vulnerable (gasp!) against such "mundane" threats as a random infantryman's plasmagun and a big Ork, and I believe it clashes with the portrayal of these archetypical Gods of War that just stride over the battlefield, flipping Titans and generally not giving a feth about anything save other Primarchs.

 

Or at least I've always seen a ton of people going "wtf" whenever I mention this little gem from GW's own fluff, simply because they'd never have considered something like that possible as they are used to a much more "high-powered" portrayal.

 

It's details like these that make it so invaluable to scan through those ancient issues of White Dwarf. Just a few hours ago I talked to someone who was convinced the Primarchs were thrown onto their homeworlds unprotected, simply because all the legends were always talking about "falling stars" and what have you. Turns out that Index Astartes specifically mentions shielded stasis pods, as well as the fact that the native people just like to make a lot of gak up, yet a lot of fans either aren't aware of these details or failed to read between the lines, not even getting sceptical when the source talks about stuff like Ferrus Manus carrying an entire mountain over the ocean. GW = Masterful Trolls.

 

tl;dr: I'm under the impression that a lot of fans - including some Horus Heresy novel authors - are operating under the impression that myth and legend = truth, regardless of how many times Games Workshop prints a "don't believe everything you hear" disclaimer into their books (like they did in the 6E core rulebook, interestingly on the page about Primarchs).

 

And in this light, I don't have a particularly big problem with assuming that Magnus or even the Emperor aren't that much above other psykers. In fact, the more powerful and epic something comes across, the more sceptical I get ...

 

This is very much influenced by a personal preference for a more "down to earth" version of 40k, though, so I guess I'm just reading different things out of the same material. Ultimately, it's up to the individual gamer/reader/fan. But it is important to at least know that there are lots of possibilities!


Edited by Lynata, 16 May 2014 - 08:37 PM.

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#19 ColArana

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 09:12 PM

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is a warp anomaly. And causing anything with the strength of a supernova would...welp, destory everything around the psyker, including the psyker himself. A supernova is an exploding star, ya know? As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.

 

It's mentioned the blast was "as thin as a pencil" implying it was focused and controlled, rather than a straight up supernova explosion.

 

As for sources on the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, it's mentioned in the 5th Edition 

 

 

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.

 

 

The point was it's irrelevant. No one is accredited in the canon as having manifested a warp storm or causing a super nova. =P

 

 

[The Emperor] gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun.” (White Dwarf #131, in reference to his battle with Horus). 

 

Other fun quotes from that same battle:

 

"Desperately, the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual and psychic.

Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightening claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed." (White Dwarf #131).

 

Emphasis my own. 

 

 

On the note of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, while I've struggled to find a direct citation there are numerous second-hand sources (notably Lexicanum) that state that it is widely believed by the Imperium that the Storm was created by the Emperor himself.

 

 

There's also the fact that the Emperor singlehandedly defeated the Void Dragon and imprisoned it in Mars. And given the Void Dragon was the most powerful of the Ctan which... you know. Were beings that ate stars, I don't think it's necessarily hyperbole that he could accomplish these feats of such significant power. Hell, as of their 5th Edition Codex, Necrons can blow up Stars themselves. And heck they have the Tachyon Arrow-- an infantry weapon that can punch through a mountain (or so the 5th Edition Codex says). 

 

As for the "the supernova would kill the caster" it's noted that the Emperor kept the blast focused and controlled. It was not a raging explosion, it was a controlled and focused beam of power. And given that there have been later sources that suggest Horus was literally being possessed by all four Gods of Chaos at that time, empowering him? I can believe the Emperor was that powerful. I certainly can't see anything less than that being able to drive back the combined might of all four Chaos Gods.

 

----

 

And yes, as Lynata said, perhaps this is colored by our own preference to how we like to see 40k. In my case? I like to see it in this light. A realm in which mortals are less than ants-- playthings of powers they can barely comprehend, and would die in an instant, should such beings so much as turn a glance in their direction. A sci-fi verse that is so grimdark, and committed to this, that it is straight up over the top.


Edited by ColArana, 16 May 2014 - 09:15 PM.


#20 lord inquisitor Iannise

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 12:39 AM

 

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is a warp anomaly. And causing anything with the strength of a supernova would...welp, destory everything around the psyker, including the psyker himself. A supernova is an exploding star, ya know? As of yet, the references being thrown in here are those, "i heard on the internet on some forum'" type rather than from source material, which hasn't really focused on the Emperor's combat abilties much outside of the various 'contests' he held with his children before abducting them, and the battle with horus above terra at the culmination of the Horus Heresy.

 

It's mentioned the blast was "as thin as a pencil" implying it was focused and controlled, rather than a straight up supernova explosion.

 

As for sources on the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, it's mentioned in the 5th Edition 

 

 

you're compering apples and oranges here a super nova is ten octillion megatons of tnt while we have no idea how much energy is required to manifest a warp storm.

 

 

The point was it's irrelevant. No one is accredited in the canon as having manifested a warp storm or causing a super nova. =P

 

 

[The Emperor] gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun.” (White Dwarf #131, in reference to his battle with Horus). 

 

Other fun quotes from that same battle:

 

"Desperately, the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual and psychic.

Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightening claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed." (White Dwarf #131).

 

Emphasis my own. 

 

 

On the note of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, while I've struggled to find a direct citation there are numerous second-hand sources (notably Lexicanum) that state that it is widely believed by the Imperium that the Storm was created by the Emperor himself.

 

 

There's also the fact that the Emperor singlehandedly defeated the Void Dragon and imprisoned it in Mars. And given the Void Dragon was the most powerful of the Ctan which... you know. Were beings that ate stars, I don't think it's necessarily hyperbole that he could accomplish these feats of such significant power. Hell, as of their 5th Edition Codex, Necrons can blow up Stars themselves. And heck they have the Tachyon Arrow-- an infantry weapon that can punch through a mountain (or so the 5th Edition Codex says). 

 

As for the "the supernova would kill the caster" it's noted that the Emperor kept the blast focused and controlled. It was not a raging explosion, it was a controlled and focused beam of power. And given that there have been later sources that suggest Horus was literally being possessed by all four Gods of Chaos at that time, empowering him? I can believe the Emperor was that powerful. I certainly can't see anything less than that being able to drive back the combined might of all four Chaos Gods.

 

----

 

And yes, as Lynata said, perhaps this is colored by our own preference to how we like to see 40k. In my case? I like to see it in this light. A realm in which mortals are less than ants-- playthings of powers they can barely comprehend, and would die in an instant, should such beings so much as turn a glance in their direction. A sci-fi verse that is so grimdark, and committed to this, that it is straight up over the top.

 

Well if that's true i can take the 10 octillion megatons of tnt from a super nova, convert it into watts then divided it by the estimated wattage of a laz gun(20 megawatts). Then take that number multiple it by the damage stats of a Dark heresy laz gun. Next using the Bio-lightning ability keep adding willpower bones till i get a similar figure. sound good? ;)    






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