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Munitions Failsafe...fail


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#21 Ravncat

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 05:34 AM

and it's value goes up with more ordnance, as you're paying 1/2 a point for two missiles - hello  y-wing, b-wing, tie bomber....  and even less for more missiles -  while you might ne'er load a tie bomber with 4 missiles now - given flechette torps and ion pulse missiles - you could more realistically fully load a bomber -  move on into epic and it's even less crazy.



#22 That One Guy

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:46 AM

and it's value goes up with more ordnance, as you're paying 1/2 a point for two missiles - hello  y-wing, b-wing, tie bomber....  and even less for more missiles -  while you might ne'er load a tie bomber with 4 missiles now - given flechette torps and ion pulse missiles - you could more realistically fully load a bomber -  move on into epic and it's even less crazy.

It's only got 2 missile slots you know...



#23 Kasatka

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:53 AM

 

and it's value goes up with more ordnance, as you're paying 1/2 a point for two missiles - hello  y-wing, b-wing, tie bomber....  and even less for more missiles -  while you might ne'er load a tie bomber with 4 missiles now - given flechette torps and ion pulse missiles - you could more realistically fully load a bomber -  move on into epic and it's even less crazy.

It's only got 2 missile slots you know...

 

2 missile and 2 torps, which is what was mentioned.


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#24 Hrathen

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:34 AM

I personally will use the failsafe with assault missiles.  But it works like a gunner, insurance.  If you take it and never need it you are already doing pretty well.  If you don't take but need it you have wasted a lot of points.  I am excited for this card.  (especially for my Jonus 4 bomber build)


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#25 Aminar

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:39 AM

It's insurance on a few specific missiles with secondary effects that matter more than the damage. But it doesn't help anything that already significantly boosts its accuracy(like Proton torps.) Personally I think adding to the cost of ordnance doesn't help make it better or more strategically reliable.

#26 Hrathen

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:52 AM

It's insurance on a few specific missiles with secondary effects that matter more than the damage. But it doesn't help anything that already significantly boosts its accuracy(like Proton torps.) Personally I think adding to the cost of ordnance doesn't help make it better or more strategically reliable.

Except ordnance cost so many points that if a proton torpedo wiffs that is points down the drain.  Letting you re-try your best attack if you have bad luck is pretty good.  Though like all upgrades, it isn't a no-brainer.  I don't think it is a good idea on every ship.  I don't think I would take it on a X-wing or B-wing since their primary attack is already so good.  But at 1 point on a Y-wing, or a TIE Bomber I think it still has place to help things like concussion missiles or proton torpedos


Edited by Hrathen, 15 May 2014 - 03:04 PM.

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#27 Khyros

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:11 AM

and it's value goes up with more ordnance, as you're paying 1/2 a point for two missiles - hello  y-wing, b-wing, tie bomber....  and even less for more missiles -  while you might ne'er load a tie bomber with 4 missiles now - given flechette torps and ion pulse missiles - you could more realistically fully load a bomber -  move on into epic and it's even less crazy.

 

The one thing I'd say to this is how long do you think a bomber is going to last?  If you have it loaded with 4 ordnances and fail safe, that means you expect to get more than 5 shots off.  Even at the cheapest price (16 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 1) that comes up to 27 points, but let's drop a Flechette and say you have 4 of these... Except against swarm, one is likely to die before it even gets a TL, a second before it gets to shoot... which means that the remaining 2 have to now live 3 more rounds to get around to the situation where they would have been out of ordnance but the failsafe prevented them from doing so.

 

While I understand the more ordnance you have, the cheaper it is per ordnance, but the more likely you are to die with stuff still in the tubes anyways, and therefore waste the entire point.  I haven't done the math on the sweet spot, but I'm really wondering if lists that have these are really going to be competitive.  If it's on a single ship with 1 ordnance, it either has R1-2 or R2-3 (or R1 for APT which shouldn't miss because you should always be action stacking).  If your attack whiffs, and you're alive, you're now going to either be too close, have no shot, or K turned and stressed w/o a lock.  So now you have to go another turn at least before you can get that shot off.  I just don't see this happening that often, unless you've built your list with much more deadly threats and put them in position to get shot at... at which point you're kinda playing poorly to force the munitions failure to work.

 

If you take the extreme opposite with lots of ordnance, I already mentioned that you're more than likely going to die before you go through it all already, ergo munitions failure was wasted.  And yes, I know that you could want to take 3 shots with Flechettes instead of 2 Flechettes and 1 Ion pulse... And in that case, the munitions failure allowed you to do so... but now you're wasting even more points on those Ion pulse missiles you never fired.

 

So then you'd look at it on a ship that has 2 ordnance.  This just makes it a higher priority - while it might be a gamble to be killed before the first one gets off, you should be able to kill it before the second goes off.  But then lets look at lists that have 2+ ships that have a 1-2 ordnance each.  This is about the only place I can see it working since one of them should live long enough to get 3+ shots off, but you can't afford to spend points on outfitting them both with 3 sets of ordnance.  This might be the one time that munitions failure can be relatively useful.  

 

If we look at two Scimitars w/ PT, Clusters, and Munitions Failure, they cost 25 points each.  Then since they have Clusters for that R1 opportunity, lets fly them with Jonus.  This leaves you with 28 points for other stuff.  I'm almost tempted to put ST on Jonus for 2, and then the PS1 Phantom for 25, leaving 1 point for init bid.  Fly the phantom in formation, and try to keep it at range.  Don't bother with the cloak.  Then you have ordnance being thrown with 4 dice with rerolls, a 4 dice R3 primary w/ Focus, or Jonus, buffing the bombers and using ST so they shoot before they die...  And since something will miff, then you'll have MF to kick in and keep you from discarding your 4 point ordnance.  Herm... Intriguing... 


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#28 MajorJuggler

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:35 AM

The problem with TIE Bombers running Ordnance is that Ordnance is too costly to be reliably effective, even with Jonus. Spending 1 more point on each bomber only makes them more expensive and does not solve the underlying problem.

 

I do like the concept of the upgrade, and think that it is costed correctly. However trying to build a competitive TIE Bomber list with it is very difficult. Lets take this list as an example, which is one of the better "pure" bomber ordnance builds that you can currently do:

 

(100 points)

Jonus

3x Gamma Squadron Pilot + Proton Torpedoes + Cluster Missiles

 

So if you want to take Munitions Failsafe, you need to free up 3 points. You could drop a torpedo or missile to save points. If Munitions Failure triggers once, then you will have gotten the same number of shots of as without Munitions Failsafe... except that your enemy can now focus down a fully loaded bomber and leave the empty bombers for later. In my opinion your best option here is to downgrade a couple of Gammas into Scimitars.

 

 

(100 points)

Jonus

3x Scimitar Squadron Pilot + Assault Missiles + Cluster Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

 
This does let you upgrade the Protons into Assault Missiles. Unfortunately this squad's glaring weakness is trying to get target locks and then fire them in the same turn, at PS2.
 
TL;DR: Munitions Failsafe is nice, and its existence certainly can't hurt the TIE Bomber, but it doesn't change the underlying issues so I don't see it making a big impact.

Edited by MajorJuggler, 14 May 2014 - 10:36 AM.

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#29 trustybroom

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:49 AM

I think the whole point of it is for those situations where you are just target-locking and not TL + F your ordnance. So you can try to get a quick shot off and not lose your payload if you miss.

 

Personally I would only use it if I didn't have an action-stacking build AND I wasn't running Jonus.



#30 Aminar

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:02 AM

It's insurance on a few specific missiles with secondary effects that matter more than the damage. But it doesn't help anything that already significantly boosts its accuracy(like Proton torps.) Personally I think adding to the cost of ordnance doesn't help make it better or more strategically reliable.

Except ordnance cot so many points that if a proton torpedo wiffs that is f points down the drain.  Letting you re-try your best attack if you have bad luck is pretty good.  Though like all upgrades, it isn't a no-brainer.  I don't think it is a good idea on every ship.  I don't think I would take it on a X-wing or B-wing since their primary attack is already so good.  But at 1 point on a Y-wing, or a TIE Bomber I think it still has place to help things like concussion missiles or proton torpedos
Yeah, but the odds of it whiffing are bad. The odds of it doing low damage are much higher. The odds of it doing less damage than a Weapon 3 shot with Target Lock or Focus are also fairly high. My point being that it protects against a rare circumstance while not fixing the real issue, that ordnance just doesn't justify the point cost already, let alone amping that cost. On Assault missiles the cost is justified because the point isn't the damage done by the missile, it's the damage done by the splash(Although if you whiff that first shot you aren't getting nearly as good of one against a competent opponent again...) Ordnance cards aren't crippled by the fact they miss. They are crippled by the fact they cost a lot of points, require strenuous conditions to use, and don`t do all that much more damage over regular attacks, except on Y-Wings and Bombers.
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#31 Jo Jo

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:53 AM

 

 

It's insurance on a few specific missiles with secondary effects that matter more than the damage. But it doesn't help anything that already significantly boosts its accuracy(like Proton torps.) Personally I think adding to the cost of ordnance doesn't help make it better or more strategically reliable.

Except ordnance cot so many points that if a proton torpedo wiffs that is f points down the drain.  Letting you re-try your best attack if you have bad luck is pretty good.  Though like all upgrades, it isn't a no-brainer.  I don't think it is a good idea on every ship.  I don't think I would take it on a X-wing or B-wing since their primary attack is already so good.  But at 1 point on a Y-wing, or a TIE Bomber I think it still has place to help things like concussion missiles or proton torpedos
Yeah, but the odds of it whiffing are bad. The odds of it doing low damage are much higher. The odds of it doing less damage than a Weapon 3 shot with Target Lock or Focus are also fairly high. My point being that it protects against a rare circumstance while not fixing the real issue, that ordnance just doesn't justify the point cost already, let alone amping that cost. On Assault missiles the cost is justified because the point isn't the damage done by the missile, it's the damage done by the splash(Although if you whiff that first shot you aren't getting nearly as good of one against a competent opponent again...) Ordnance cards aren't crippled by the fact they miss. They are crippled by the fact they cost a lot of points, require strenuous conditions to use, and don`t do all that much more damage over regular attacks, except on Y-Wings and Bombers.

 

 

 

This is what I was getting at. You are making an already pricey upgrade more expensive. Not by much, but it doesn't really help enough in my opinion or fix the issue. Yeah its almmost a no brainer in an Epic match or on a ship you have at least 2 ordinance loaded. Really only good for the designated "bombers" too. Running it on a Z95 which it comes in ironically doesn't seem smart to me. Unless you are running a Z swarm and the all have it, chances are you aren't going to get another shot with a low HP ship.

 

Also, range is a factor. It might not be such a good option on 2-3 range ordinance. Usually the first volleys happen at that range, but on the second exchange you are at range 1 typically. Making your juicy ordinance laden bomber a fine target up close.

 

With ordinance you have to be very picky about your shots. I am not shooting Torps at Soontir with a SD at range 3. But yeah I am going to slam them into that Firespray or Tie Bomber.


Edited by Jo Jo, 14 May 2014 - 11:54 AM.

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#32 dvor

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:09 PM

I am not shooting Torps at Soontir with a SD at range 3.

Without munitions failsafe: No, you don't. With munitions failsafe: You can do that.

Proton torpedoes (with spent TL) have a better chance to remove the SD than a 3+TL shot. If the shot hits the SD is gone. If it does not you still have the torpedoes.

 

Munitions failsafe allows you to target ships you would not target without.


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#33 Ailowynn

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:37 PM

Edit: never mind :P.

Edited by Ailowynn, 14 May 2014 - 12:40 PM.


#34 Khyros

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:41 PM

Edit: never mind :P.

 

Bombs are not secondary weapons.  This is FAQ'd.  Therefore you do not discard your bombs when you get a secondary weapons failure critical.


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#35 dvor

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:43 PM

Bombs are not secondary weapons. So munitions failsafe does not work on them.


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#36 SableGryphon

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 03:48 PM

You know... I'm tempted to take Flechette on Kath Scarlet with Failsafe, gunner, and PTL. So, you PTL and focus and TL. You shoot with the Flechette. If you miss they get a stress. Plus another stress if they cancel a crit result. Then gunner kicks in and you attack again, this time using focus. If they cancel a crit result they get yet another stress.


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#37 Damoel

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:47 PM

You know... I'm tempted to take Flechette on Kath Scarlet with Failsafe, gunner, and PTL. So, you PTL and focus and TL. You shoot with the Flechette. If you miss they get a stress. Plus another stress if they cancel a crit result. Then gunner kicks in and you attack again, this time using focus. If they cancel a crit result they get yet another stress.

 

Mister Gryphon, I like the cut of your jib.


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#38 dvor

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

You know... I'm tempted to take Flechette on Kath Scarlet with Failsafe, gunner, and PTL. So, you PTL and focus and TL. You shoot with the Flechette. If you miss they get a stress. Plus another stress if they cancel a crit result. Then gunner kicks in and you attack again, this time using focus. If they cancel a crit result they get yet another stress.

Consider predator instead of PTL. Allows you to reroll his from the torps and blanks from gunner.


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#39 berusplants

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:14 AM

You know what it's a good combo with? Flechettes. You can still miss with it, and it will still create stress on the target. That, to me, is totally worth it. Gonna abuse that fact with Horton Salm. :D

 

I think the combo of Flachettes with MFS will be ace, as you say miss but still cause stress. Not sure Horton is the best proponent though, as he is  more likely to hit with his re rolls. 


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#40 Engine25

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:22 AM

 

You know what it's a good combo with? Flechettes. You can still miss with it, and it will still create stress on the target. That, to me, is totally worth it. Gonna abuse that fact with Horton Salm. :D

 

I think the combo of Flachettes with MFS will be ace, as you say miss but still cause stress. Not sure Horton is the best proponent though, as he is  more likely to hit with his re rolls. 

 

 

There are no rules that say which dice you can reroll.  Horton IS the best candidate for this strategy, because you can reroll hits and hope for misses or eyes.


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