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When is "while attacking"?


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#1 BlackOrc

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:50 PM

Some cards have "while attacking" in their text, as for the timing of a condition.

 

Like MTV-7 'gains [Blast Damage] while it is attacking a damaged objective' and like the objective: Against all odds: 'Each unit you control gains [Blast Damage] while attacking an opponent who has more cards in hand than you'. (But also others.)

 

It is not clear, when should we check for the condition.

Is it when the attackers are announced?

Is it when the actual attack is made? i.e. when striking?

At any point during the whole attacking i.e. during the whole engagement - at the most convenient point for the attacker?

 

In case of MTV-7 an objective can be undamaged when announcing attackers, but later on, still "while attacking" it can become damaged either by fate cards or by a co-attacker who strikes before MTV-7.

 

In case of Against all odds, when attackers are announced, I may have more/less cards than my opponent, but after the edge battle (or via action windows using event cards) when actually striking (still "while attacking") the situation can change to the opposit.

 

So the qustion is: when is "while attacking"?



#2 KennedyHawk

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 04:00 PM

When a unit says while attack it is when they are focused to strike.

 

So for the MTV-7 if you use a target of opportunity you can turn those extra icons on, or if you strike with another unit (who has blast damage) first.

 

In other cases (Dash), he says while attacking alone he gains blast equal to the number of cards in your opponents hand. This is checked when dash focuses to strike, if he is attacking alone at that time. This means you could attack with him and the falcon or another unit that you can remove to get more bang  in the engagement.

 

Yet another case Sleuth scouts. They read while attacking alone your opponent may not declare defenders that cost more than 2. So this is limiting the opponent when they declare defenders. Meaning if you have a unit (like Ackbar) you can sneak them in after the declare defenders window, like wise for your opponent using Backstabber.



#3 ktom

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 05:48 PM

When a unit says while attack it is when they are focused to strike.

 

It's probably not a good idea to think of this as the general rule. In fact, it is contradicted in the same post by one of the examples given (Sleuth Scouts). 

 

It is probably more accurate to say that "while attacking" means "when the unit is participating in an engagement on the attacking side" - which is, of course, from the whole time from when the unit joins an engagement as an attacker (usually by being declared) through to the end of that engagement - or an effect/damage specifically removes the unit from the engagement or play (whichever comes first). As such, "while attacking" is not a one-time condition that you check. Rather, it is a status the unit has under given circumstances.

 

Looking at MTV-7 and Against All Odds, note that "while attacking" isn't its own check, but rather a factor in the check for which combat icons a striking unit has. It's one condition on when the "gains [Blast Damage]" effect applies, so it is checked whenever you need to determine which combat icons a unit has (usually, but not always, because you are focusing it to strike). Similarly, for Sleuth Scouts, "while attacking" isn't its own check, but rather a condition on when the effect that limits your opponent's defense options is applicable, so it is checked whenever you need to check the restrictions on your opponent declaring defenders.

 

Hope that makes sense. Effectively, "while attacking" is a play restriction/condition on other checks, not a one-time check in and of itself.


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#4 PBrennan

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:52 PM

Yep. Effects that use "while" apply a state that lasts "while" that condition is being met. Only stuff that starts with "When" and "After" provide a specific triggered one-off timing point, and hopefully all those timing points are clear and precise as to when they can be triggered.


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#5 BlackOrc

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:42 AM

Thanks for many answers. I figured out something with your help, let's see if it proves correct.

 

"While attacking" refers to that there should be an attack in order to check the condition at all - but during the attack the condition should be checked at the specific point of usage.

 

Eg. if there was a card saying that "after you refresh, your opponent must discard as many cards as many Blast damages your units have", then dispite I have the objective Against all odds, I don't get the extra Blast damages on my units, as I am not attacking yet.

 

Later on, during attack, if there was an event card eg. Sneak Attack, which would allow a unit not in the engagement to use its symbols, then MTV-7 aint get the extra Blast damage, as it is not attacking.

 

On the other hand, during the attack phase, the bonus applies in all cases: eg. if there was a card saying that "Your attacking unit's Blast damages are added to your edge value", then if the attacked objective is already damaged, an attacking MTV-7 gets the extra Blast and in turn the edge value is also increased, as it is already attacking a damaged objective (even if not yet striking).

 

If there was a card played against me saying "your opponent cannot declare units as attacker with more printed total cost than Blast damages their units have" then the objective Against all odds would give the bonus Blast damages (and thus increasing the total cost allowance), as it is already an attack, so "while attacking" already stands. Of course only if I have less cards than my opponent.

Then, during edge my opponent depletes their hand, me not - so when striking, I don't get the bonus. Althought it is still "while attacking", I do not have card-minority anymore.

 

So, that's how I see now. Is that correct?

(Sorry for the many made-up card examples, but I dont know many cards, and these fitted my explanatory purposes well.)



#6 dbmeboy

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:52 AM

The last example is not quite right. While attacking doesn't apply until the unit has been declared as an attacker, so something like that would not prevent it from being declared.

#7 GroggyGolem

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:05 AM

Would it be correct in saying that: The ability of the MTV-7 unit is a Constant Effect? Or is it more of a Lasting Effect? To me it seems to be a Constant Effect that describes the conditions in which it can be used.

 

Rulebook on Constant Effects:

 

Constant Effects
Many cards simply announce an effect, with no bold 
precursor. Such effects, called constant effects, 
become active as soon as their enabling card comes 
into play and remain active as long as that card is in 
play. 
The objective card “Jedi 
Training” is an example 
of a card that provides a 
constant effect. As long as 
this objective card is in play, 
it gives one additional Force 
icon to the LS player during 
each Force struggle.
 
 
FAQ on Lasting Effects:
 
(3.7) Lasting Effects
Any effect that modifies a card or the game state for a 
specified duration of time is known as a ‘lasting effect.’ 
All lasting effects that are modifying a card expire when 
the card they are modifying leaves play

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#8 ktom

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:09 AM

You are correct that it is a constant effect. It has an additional condition (beyond needing to be in play) for when that effect is active, but it is, indeed, a constant effect.
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#9 GroggyGolem

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:36 AM

You are correct that it is a constant effect. It has an additional condition (beyond needing to be in play) for when that effect is active, but it is, indeed, a constant effect.

Thanks! I was mostly sure that it was one, I just wanted to confirm my thought. I knew how it worked already, just wanted to know whether it was a Constant Effect.


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#10 dbmeboy

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:59 PM

The effect is "gains blast damage while attacking a damaged objective." The effect is always on, it just doesn't always do anything. Lasting effects are things like Echo Caverns that create an effect that lasts until the end of the phase (or turn or any other unit of time). If that helps with the difference.
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#11 GroggyGolem

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:08 PM

The effect is "gains blast damage while attacking a damaged objective." The effect is always on, it just doesn't always do anything. Lasting effects are things like Echo Caverns that create an effect that lasts until the end of the phase (or turn or any other unit of time). If that helps with the difference.

That does, thanks


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#12 BlackOrc

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 12:57 AM

Thanks all. Think it's clear now.

 

My only concern is that it doesnt fit well with what I thought "Against all odds" was about. The card made me think that I am against the odds if at the beginning of the attack I have fewer cards in hand than my opponent has, as in this case it is likely that I will not win the edge battle (of course it is not quantity but quality what counts, but still...) - so I wont be able to use the [ ] symbols, but instead of them, I get the blast damages.

Now I understand that for the "real attack" i.e. for the strike the condition (card minority) is checked at the moment of strike. Unfortunately by that time my opponent most probably has already used their more cards from their hand in the edge battle, most probably winning it and at the same time disabling my objective's power to gain the blast damages. Unless of course if they are ignorant enough to keep more cards in hand during the edge battle than me, granting me a load of bonus Blast damages.

 

In turn it means, that this objective is not for gaining Blast damages (as the text suggests) or at least not at the strike when it would be important, but to make my opponent to lower their hand size, maybe getting rid of a few otherwise "good" cards in edge battle at best...



#13 ktom

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:37 AM

It's dual purpose, sure. But in a game where players can control their hand size and always get rid of unwanted cards through the Edge battle, such meta game considerations will always be a consideration.




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