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#1 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 06:57 AM

celeborn.png

 

If his repsonse would read "character" instead of ally, and heroes were considered to enter play at the beginning of the very first turn.



#2 ZanzibarLand

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:22 AM

I guess it would work the same for Landrovil and Fortune or Fate too then?
Sounds like a cool idea. Start of game boost.

#3 Nerdmeister

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:31 AM

No not really. Too over-powered is too easy is too boring imo.

 

Celeborn is just fine as he is designed.


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#4 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:23 AM

ZanzibarLand, yep.

 

Nerdmeister, OMG, +1 boost to the limited number of heroes for the first turn of the game is SO OP! CALL THE OP POLICE, FAST!


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#5 joezim007

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:50 AM

You two really need to calm down and stop bickering like an old married couple. Celeborn really is just fine the way he is designed, but I don't believe that it would be overpowered to give some heroes +1 stats for a turn. There are events that do more than that.
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#6 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:13 AM

I never said Celeborn designed bad, I said it would be cool little thing of him to do.

Right now, there is 3 Silvan heroes known - Celeborn himself, Legolas and Mirlonde. In solo, a deck consisting of those 3 would be extremely wierd and most likely will fail, in multiplayer, giving them a little boost during the first turn would cause only a a slight impact. I can't see how this is overpowered.



#7 danpoage

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:04 AM

Heroes begin the game in play. Changing the way setup works is too fundamental of a shift as it opens up all sorts of weird edge cases around "enters play" responses happening outside of the usual game phases. While this proposed change to Celeborn might seem cool, it brings more problems than the limited benefit really warrants.


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#8 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:25 AM

Just for the sake of it, can you provide an example of weird edge case you're talking about here?



#9 leptokurt

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:39 AM

Just for the sake of it, can you provide an example of weird edge case you're talking about here?

Escape from Dol Guldur? It's hard to imprison someone who isn't even there.

 

Counting your starting threat?

 

When revealed effects of encounter cards during the setup?

 

 

 

 

Hmmmh, basically everything that happens during the setup and that affects heroes? :unsure:



#10 Gizlivadi

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:44 AM

A one time use ability, that only works until the end of the first turn, which provides a maximum of 3 willpower only on Silvan heroes? Pretty unnecesary, in my opinion. Why should they change a fundamental rule so only people who use Celeborn can use such a lame ability ?


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#11 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:54 AM

 

Just for the sake of it, can you provide an example of weird edge case you're talking about here?

Escape from Dol Guldur? It's hard to imprison someone who isn't even there.

 

Counting your starting threat?

 

When revealed effects of encounter cards during the setup?

 

 

 

 

Hmmmh, basically everything that happens during the setup and that affects heroes? :unsure:

 

Do you know the meaning of word "considered"?



#12 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:55 AM

A one time use ability, that only works until the end of the first turn, which provides a maximum of 3 willpower only on Silvan heroes? Pretty unnecesary, in my opinion. Why should they change a fundamental rule so only people who use Celeborn can use such a lame ability ?

Well, you can apply the same statement to basically any hero ability, lol. No changing anything fundamental, it's all in your head.



#13 leptokurt

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:56 AM

 

 

Just for the sake of it, can you provide an example of weird edge case you're talking about here?

Escape from Dol Guldur? It's hard to imprison someone who isn't even there.

 

Counting your starting threat?

 

When revealed effects of encounter cards during the setup?

 

 

 

 

Hmmmh, basically everything that happens during the setup and that affects heroes? :unsure:

 

Do you know the meaning of word "considered"?

 

 

Yes. In this case it means that heroes don't enter the game before the start of turn 1.



#14 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:39 PM

Nope in this case it means that they enter play as usual, but at the start of the very first resource phase there is a trigger which imitates them entering play for the purpose of this ability. It changes nothing in the usual game flow.



#15 joezim007

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 01:31 PM

Nope in this case it means that they enter play as usual, but at the start of the very first resource phase there is a trigger which imitates them entering play for the purpose of this ability. It changes nothing in the usual game flow.


It would have to be specified directly on Celeborn that it would trigger on all Silvan heroes at the start of Round 1, but it's doable. No need to change rules or anything.

It's an interesting idea, but I'd prefer to just change it to say "characters" and then be able to bring heroes back with Fortune or Fate or Landroval to make for an interesting combo.

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#16 leptokurt

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 01:57 PM

Nope in this case it means that they enter play as usual, but at the start of the very first resource phase there is a trigger which imitates them entering play for the purpose of this ability. It changes nothing in the usual game flow.

Imitating something for the purpose of an ability? No, that makes little sense. I know what you mean, but it doesn't sound right to let a character enter the game twice. Then first you have to undo the first entrance by removing all heroes from play, because they can only enter the game when they're out of play.

 

And wouldn't you have to remove Celeborn from game himself? In that case he's not able to trigger his ability, as he is also out of play. So it should be "every character beside Celeborn", right?



#17 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:36 PM

God, can you go for a second without overcomplicating everything?

 

It's clear that it's never going to happen.

 

Long story short, it would be cool if he gave Silvan heroes +1 for the first turn.

 

"Imitating something for the purpose of an ability? No, that makes little sense."

Yet the game designers have done it themselves with this raven treachery in the first quest of VoI.



#18 Gizlivadi

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:11 PM

 

A one time use ability, that only works until the end of the first turn, which provides a maximum of 3 willpower only on Silvan heroes? Pretty unnecesary, in my opinion. Why should they change a fundamental rule so only people who use Celeborn can use such a lame ability ?

Well, you can apply the same statement to basically any hero ability, lol. No changing anything fundamental, it's all in your head.

 

 

Yeah, sure we can apply it to Loragorn, or to Elrond. Resetting your threat and being able to play allies from any sphere and making healing count for double are totally superficial.


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#19 Rapier

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:00 PM

 

A one time use ability, that only works until the end of the first turn, which provides a maximum of 3 willpower only on Silvan heroes? Pretty unnecesary, in my opinion. Why should they change a fundamental rule so only people who use Celeborn can use such a lame ability ?

Well, you can apply the same statement to basically any hero ability, lol. No changing anything fundamental, it's all in your head.

 

 

Your very first statement in this thread is:

 

 

If his response would read "character" instead of ally, and heroes were considered to enter play at the beginning of the very first turn.

You list two changes here - the change to Celebon himself is tiny. The change of "heroes were considered to enter play at the beginning of the very first turn" is the fundamental part that everyone has then gone on to discuss.

You can't claim retroactively that you didn't say this :/

As for the idea - it depends on if they intend to double up on Silvan or "Elven" global boost heroes. On the other hand I think that they basically realized Dain is far too good. Dain effected heroes, allies and technically himself (if he had the ability to do something and then be ready - say UC.)

Boromir or Theodred are far more likely to be the model of future global boost heroes. Boromir gives his boost to only allies, and Theodred only to heroes. Of these, I would argue that heroes is generally worse, although Theodred does help with the very specific issue of willpower in tactics I doubt that a global boost to all "Gondor heroes" would really be worth it - you already are incentivies to play all Gondor.

Celeborn's ability is (at face value) worse. The boost is nice but only for one turn, and most allies can't benefit from all the power he provides. To really shine Celeborn players are going to need to run card draw, have a means of recycling allies in and out of play repeatedly (which is clearly the Silvan concept) and have resource acceleration or lots of super cheap allies.

He probably wouldn't be too powerful with the extra ability of giving Silvan Heroes his bonus till the end of the first turn. On the other hand he may well be approaching Dain level's of power then, and I suspect the designer's want to avoid that mistake again.



#20 Nerdmeister

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:02 AM

 

He probably wouldn't be too powerful with the extra ability of giving Silvan Heroes his bonus till the end of the first turn. On the other hand he may well be approaching Dain level's of power then, and I suspect the designer's want to avoid that mistake again.

 

I would argue that +1 stats, potentially across the board in round 1, is OP. It would let smart players able to smash the encounter deck in the first round and then be one round ahead of the challenges in many aspects regarding their table-buildup.






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