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"Immediately Before": Cloaking + Advanced Sensors


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#21 Eltnot

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:47 PM

I'm not sure how you can use Advanced sensors to recloak.  To cloak, you cannot already be cloaked, therefore it's not a valid action to choose at the time of also choosing to decloak.


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#22 DR4CO

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 02:41 AM

I'm not sure how you can use Advanced sensors to recloak.  To cloak, you cannot already be cloaked, therefore it's not a valid action to choose at the time of also choosing to decloak.

They aren't done quite at the same time, though. They are both triggered at the same time, but the player can choose to resolve them in any order. If he chooses to decloak first, then when he goes to resolve Advanced Sensors the ship will be uncloaked and thus free to re-cloak.


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#23 Sekac

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 03:15 AM

 

I'm not sure how you can use Advanced sensors to recloak.  To cloak, you cannot already be cloaked, therefore it's not a valid action to choose at the time of also choosing to decloak.

They aren't done quite at the same time, though. They are both triggered at the same time, but the player can choose to resolve them in any order. If he chooses to decloak first, then when he goes to resolve Advanced Sensors the ship will be uncloaked and thus free to re-cloak.

 

I agree up to this point. Following that up with another de-cloak is where the "immediately before" breaks down. Actions cannot be resolved simultaneously, thus they allow us to choose the order. But then arguing that the second de-cloak, which can only ever follow a cloak action, is then happening at the same time as the action that set it up is ridiculous.

 

It seems like people are reading it as "Immediately before you reveal your dial..."


Edited by Sekac, 15 May 2014 - 03:16 AM.


#24 DR4CO

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 03:38 AM

I agree. The trigger point comes once, and once only. The cloak token appearing on the Phantom via Advanced Sensors doesn't create another one.


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#25 Sergovan

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 03:45 AM

 

I agree up to this point. Following that up with another de-cloak is where the "immediately before" breaks down. Actions cannot be resolved simultaneously, thus they allow us to choose the order. But then arguing that the second de-cloak, which can only ever follow a cloak action, is then happening at the same time as the action that set it up is ridiculous.

 

It seems like people are reading it as "Immediately before you reveal your dial..."

 

 

Immediately is a term that has been bantered back and forth as a timing element but has never been substantiated in actual use when it came down to it. I agree it should but, for some reason, the rulings have not been supporting it, which undermines its role. There are others who know this issue far better than I do, I just saw parts of the timing arguments around it, so I know there is an issue with the term "immediately" I just can't weigh in support for or against it at the moment.

 

I do remember the arguments around "immediately" came about with Gunner.


Edited by Sergovan, 15 May 2014 - 03:46 AM.

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#26 Eltnot

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:52 AM

 

I'm not sure how you can use Advanced sensors to recloak.  To cloak, you cannot already be cloaked, therefore it's not a valid action to choose at the time of also choosing to decloak.

They aren't done quite at the same time, though. They are both triggered at the same time, but the player can choose to resolve them in any order. If he chooses to decloak first, then when he goes to resolve Advanced Sensors the ship will be uncloaked and thus free to re-cloak.

 

Yes you do get to choose the order in which they are resolved.  However the stipulation for Cloaking is that you don't have a cloak token.  When you declare it alongside the decloak, it isn't legal at that point in time.


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#27 DR4CO

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 09:13 AM

 

 

I'm not sure how you can use Advanced sensors to recloak.  To cloak, you cannot already be cloaked, therefore it's not a valid action to choose at the time of also choosing to decloak.

They aren't done quite at the same time, though. They are both triggered at the same time, but the player can choose to resolve them in any order. If he chooses to decloak first, then when he goes to resolve Advanced Sensors the ship will be uncloaked and thus free to re-cloak.

 

Yes you do get to choose the order in which they are resolved.  However the stipulation for Cloaking is that you don't have a cloak token.  When you declare it alongside the decloak, it isn't legal at that point in time.

 

I don't declare it alongside the decloak. I don't declare any action alongside the decloak. The sequence of events is:

 

1. Immediately before you reveal your dial trigger happens. Both the Cloak token and Advance Sensors want to activate, forcing me to pick an order for them to resolve in.

2. I choose to use the Cloak token first. I spend it and perform a maneuver with it. Sensors sits in a holding pattern while this is going on (ie. I don't have to commit to using any action with the Sensors at this point *).

3. Now I move on to Advanced Sensors. My ship longer has a cloaking token, thus I'm free to make it use its Cloak action to get a new one.

 

* Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point I'm not even committed to using the Sensors at all. If, after I finish moving the Phantom around with the Cloak, I decide that for some reason I'd rather use my action normally, I can still decline the Sensors when it comes up, right?


Edited by DR4CO, 15 May 2014 - 09:14 AM.

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#28 Forgottenlore

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:18 AM

* Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point I'm not even committed to using the Sensors at all. If, after I finish moving the Phantom around with the Cloak, I decide that for some reason I'd rather use my action normally, I can still decline the Sensors when it comes up, right?


That is a good question, and ties back in with the hypothetical rationale for the double decloak that I suggested some people had back in post 7 of this thread, and the ensuing argument.

Thanks, Troy

 

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#29 Bilisknir

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:58 AM

I get the feeling the next FAQ will have a lot of Cloaking/De-cloaking revisions for us. I would personally support a "You may only cloak or decloak once each per round" rule. That would make the argument go away.


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#30 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:34 AM

 

* Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point I'm not even committed to using the Sensors at all. If, after I finish moving the Phantom around with the Cloak, I decide that for some reason I'd rather use my action normally, I can still decline the Sensors when it comes up, right?


That is a good question, and ties back in with the hypothetical rationale for the double decloak that I suggested some people had back in post 7 of this thread, and the ensuing argument.

 

Not really tying back into the argument, really. Advanced Sensors is optional use.



#31 Forgottenlore

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:40 AM

But do you have to declare that you are using it at the same time as you declare you are decloaking?

If you have to say "it is now immediately before I reveal my dial, I am going to decloak and use advanced sensors" aren't you locked into using it at that point, no matter what happens with the decloak maneuver?

On the other hand, if you can go through the entire decloak procedure and only THEN declare whether or nor you are using advanced sensors, that indicates that, after you use advanced sensors you can then decide whether or not to decloak, which opens the door to double decloak shenanigans.

Thanks, Troy

 

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#32 dvor

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:43 AM

But do you have to declare that you are using it at the same time as you declare you are decloaking?

We do not know the answer to that.

 

Two effects trigger at the same time. Either of the following is correct. The rules do not tell which:

 

a)

  1. declare both effects
  2. resolve effect 1
  3. resolve effect 2

b)

  1. declare effect 1
  2. resolve effect 1
  3. declare effect 2
  4. resolve effect 2

X-wing is played over a series of game rounds. Turn is a type of maneuver.


#33 Forgottenlore

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:03 PM

That is what I was saying back in post #7. Option B allows for double decloaking because you don't make the decision to do it until after the previous effect is done resolving.

Which is why this question ties back into the double decloaking question.

Thanks, Troy

 

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#34 Buhallin

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:04 PM

 

But do you have to declare that you are using it at the same time as you declare you are decloaking?

We do not know the answer to that.

 

Two effects trigger at the same time. Either of the following is correct. The rules do not tell which:

 

a)

  1. declare both effects
  2. resolve effect 1
  3. resolve effect 2

b)

  1. declare effect 1
  2. resolve effect 1
  3. declare effect 2
  4. resolve effect 2

I'll add an extra wrinkle into this, and say that we don't know how "may" and "resolving effects" interact with each other.  Is it "may declare effect" or "declare {may perform effect}".  Basically, is the optional part of "may" rolled in with the declaration, or the resolution?

 

We really don't know.  X-wing's timing rules aren't anywhere near that clear, and aren't likely to be any time soon.



#35 Buhallin

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:06 PM

That is what I was saying back in post #7. Option B allows for double decloaking because you don't make the decision to do it until after the previous effect is done resolving.

Which is why this question ties back into the double decloaking question.

I know we've been over this, but it doesn't.  Resolving multiple effects against the same trigger is still the same trigger, and you've still got the one-per limitation.

 

None of the questions over timing change that.



#36 TezzasGames

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:05 PM

a)

  1. declare both effects
  2. resolve effect 1
  3. resolve effect 2

Unless ruled otherwise by FFG, this is how I would play the game.

X-Wing sequencing could take a positive lesson from how Magic turns, phases, steps and cards are structured.

If Advanced Sensors was a Magic card it would be worded something like "At the beginning of the Activation Phase, you may perform..."  Of course, that would require a Step 0 in the Activation Phase, like a 'beginning of phase' step.

That way, the Advanced Sensors effect must resolve, either before or after decloaking, because it was being declared when the trigger condition was met - before revealing the movement dial, at the start of the Activation Phase.


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#37 DR4CO

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:22 PM

I'll add an extra wrinkle into this, and say that we don't know how "may" and "resolving effects" interact with each other.  Is it "may declare effect" or "declare {may perform effect}".  Basically, is the optional part of "may" rolled in with the declaration, or the resolution?


This is more what I was getting at. My instinct is that you don't do anything with the Sensors until its turn comes up, at which point you go through the entire effect from start to finish. You don't start the effect, make the decision on the "may" section, then stop so you can deal with the cloaking action and come back to finish the Sensors.

But X-wing's rules are so maddeningly vague that I can't be certain.

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#38 Eltnot

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:19 PM

 

 

 

I'm not sure how you can use Advanced sensors to recloak.  To cloak, you cannot already be cloaked, therefore it's not a valid action to choose at the time of also choosing to decloak.

They aren't done quite at the same time, though. They are both triggered at the same time, but the player can choose to resolve them in any order. If he chooses to decloak first, then when he goes to resolve Advanced Sensors the ship will be uncloaked and thus free to re-cloak.

 

Yes you do get to choose the order in which they are resolved.  However the stipulation for Cloaking is that you don't have a cloak token.  When you declare it alongside the decloak, it isn't legal at that point in time.

 

I don't declare it alongside the decloak. I don't declare any action alongside the decloak. The sequence of events is:

 

1. Immediately before you reveal your dial trigger happens. Both the Cloak token and Advance Sensors want to activate, forcing me to pick an order for them to resolve in.

2. I choose to use the Cloak token first. I spend it and perform a maneuver with it. Sensors sits in a holding pattern while this is going on (ie. I don't have to commit to using any action with the Sensors at this point *).

3. Now I move on to Advanced Sensors. My ship longer has a cloaking token, thus I'm free to make it use its Cloak action to get a new one.

 

* Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point I'm not even committed to using the Sensors at all. If, after I finish moving the Phantom around with the Cloak, I decide that for some reason I'd rather use my action normally, I can still decline the Sensors when it comes up, right?

 

Okay, yeah that is making a little more sense to me.


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