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"Immediately Before": Cloaking + Advanced Sensors


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#1 LateNightHunter

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:25 AM

What determines the priority of "immediately before" revealing your maneuver?

 

Advanced Sensors states: "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver, you may perform 1 free action."

 

The Decloak reference card states: "A ship may spend a cloak token to decloak immediately before revealing its maneuver dial."

 

So the scenario is:

-A TIE Phantom is Cloaked.

-It chooses to Decloak, spending its Cloak token and getting the barrel roll/movement that accompanies it.

-It uses Advanced Sensors to execute it's action: Cloak (taking a new Cloak token).

-It chooses to Decloak again, spending the second Cloak token and getting the barrel roll/movement that accompanies it (because Decloaking is not an action, it can be theoretically be executed twice in a turn).

-It then reveals and executes its normal maneuver.

 

Sure, the TIE doesn't end cloaked, but if it went forward 2 with each decloak then executed a forward 4 maneuver, it's almost halfway across the play area from where it started.

 

In my mind, the word "immediately" means that nothing can intercede between that game action and revealing maneuver, but a friend argues the above scenario is possible. Thoughts?



#2 Sergovan

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:45 AM

cloak-action.png

 

decloak.png

 

By the rules cards for Cloaking you could decloak, cloak and decloak  as above and have moved 2 + 2 + 4 + 3 (length of base) which would put you on your opponents side of the table.


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wing, 2 Yt-1300, 3 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 CR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 1 Tie Phantom, 1 Defender

Tournament results: 11 of 11; 3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; 12 of 28


#3 Cptnhalfbeard

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:12 PM

This doesn't sound right.  Hopefully someone can verify either way, but adding another cloak token does not re-trigger "immediately before revealing your movement dial".

 

The things that are present *immediately* before revealing your dial:

Adv Sensors

Cloak token

 

Those 2 things can trigger, and you can choose the order, but anything else that gets added after this is no longer "immediately before revealing your dial" so even if you use adv sensors to get the additional cloak token, it did not exist during the timeline of "immediately before revealing your dial".



#4 DraconPyrothayan

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 01:28 PM

I think the Adv Sensors-Cloak/Uncloak interaction works as you stated in the most paranoid configuration.
It's a potent interaction, but it does rob you of your offensive action AND defensive action in one go, and Pushing the Limit with it eleminates its potentiality for the following turn.

Remember, that interaction is only available on ships of 28 points and up, each with only 4 HP. I'd let them be bonkers, to balance the costs.



#5 LateNightHunter

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:13 PM

-Sergovan: The point isn't where on the board you end up, it's that you can just move a ridiculous amount, be it forward or laterally.

 

-Cptnhalfbeard: Yeah, I could see that, too. In my mind it was a one or the other, but your assertion makes sense, too.

 

-DraconPyrothayan: You can do this with Sigma Squadron Pilot, all of them have the slot for Advanced Sensors. What do you mean by rob you of offensive and defensive action? I feel like moving that far can be offensive in putting you in a great position, or defensive in moving all the way out of action. Plus, if you add Advanced Cloaking Device, you could move that far, fire, cloak, then do it again the next turn.

 

Simply, it seems broken, unless you can only do one or do what Cptnhalfbeard suggest. I'd be curious for an official ruling or FAQ.



#6 Sergovan

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:30 PM

You can't use the Advanced Cloaking Device upgrade in this scenario as it lets you do a free Cloak action, and no ship can do the same action twice in a round. Also, it requires you to attack to gain its use, which would not happen as the ship is currently cloaked.

 

advanced-cloaking-device.png


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wing, 2 Yt-1300, 3 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 CR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 1 Tie Phantom, 1 Defender

Tournament results: 11 of 11; 3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; 12 of 28


#7 Forgottenlore

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:39 PM

This probably the number one issue that needs FAQed once wave 4 hits.

 

The prevailing view is that "immediately before you reveal your maneuver dial" multiple things trigger simultaneously, you choose to take an action with advanced sensors and you choose to decloak. Since you are the active player and these are all your effects, you get to choose what order those things resolve in, but the "immediately before" trigger does not occur again, so you don't get an opportunity to decloak a second time that turn. I personally think, and so do most of the rules people on here it seems, that this is the way it works.

 

There is a possible counter argument though. That when "immediately before" happens you trigger and fully resolve each effect fully before moving on to the next effect that triggers. In that case you could decloak, cloak and decloak again because the immediately before trigger happens several time. I don't think it works that way, it seems ripe for abuse, but I could see someone arguing it.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that a ship with advanced sensors and a cloak token only gets to use one of those effects. I can see the argument, but I am pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

 

Basically, this is an issue that really does need a FAQ to clarify it. The safest route is to assume that you cannot decloak twice in a single round, but can use advanced sensors and decloak.


Edited by Forgottenlore, 11 May 2014 - 03:42 PM.

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#8 LateNightHunter

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:10 PM

Yeah, I'm hoping they release an FAQ, too. This one needs it.



#9 Buhallin

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:09 PM

Even if you're still considered to be "immediately before" the dial reveal with the second token, you can only perform the same ability once per triggering condition.  Since you've decloaked once for that dial, you can't do it again.



#10 Forgottenlore

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:30 PM

Even if you're still considered to be "immediately before" the dial reveal with the second token, you can only perform the same ability once per triggering condition.  Since you've decloaked once for that dial, you can't do it again.

 

As I have said in at least 3 different threads thus far, the argument is that you get another trigger each time an effect resolves.

 

Immediately before I reveal dial Trigger A

The immediately before condition ends because you now have to Resolve A

Turn sequence resumes There is now a second occurrence of Immediately before dial

 

and so on

 

Under this argument, you wouldn't be triggering decloak twice off of the same event, because this argument assumes multiple instantiations of the trigger. Put another way, that there is a NEW, DIFFERENT trigger after each effect resolves. Rather like how Craken's ability works twice with cluster missiles. Normally there is only one attack per turn, so it can only trigger once per turn, but a card creates a second instance of that trigger so the effect can go off again. Likewise, normally there is only one "before I reveal dial" instance a turn (per ship) but some things, like advanced sensors and decloak, create additional times when it is "immediately before".

 

Like I said, it is a fairly flimsy argument, and almost certainly won't be how it is ruled, but if you deconstruct what the people that are claiming it can be done are saying, that is the thinking behind their argument, and we should be prepared with a rebuttal to that line of thinking instead of ignoring it.


Edited by Forgottenlore, 11 May 2014 - 11:32 PM.

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#11 Buhallin

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:39 AM

 

Like I said, it is a fairly flimsy argument, and almost certainly won't be how it is ruled, but if you deconstruct what the people that are claiming it can be done are saying, that is the thinking behind their argument, and we should be prepared with a rebuttal to that line of thinking instead of ignoring it.

 

Put another way, that there is a NEW, DIFFERENT trigger after each effect resolves. Rather like how Craken's ability works twice with cluster missiles. Normally there is only one attack per turn, so it can only trigger once per turn, but a card creates a second instance of that trigger so the effect can go off again. Likewise, normally there is only one "before I reveal dial" instance a turn (per ship) but some things, like advanced sensors and decloak, create additional times when it is "immediately before".

Doesn't matter how many times it's immediately before revealing the dial - it's still only one dial.  If using Advanced Sensors created a new "before" opportunity, then you could use Advanced Sensors again, and again, until you'd taken all possible actions.

 

Honestly, the arguments supporting the idea range from weak to outright ludicrous.  I've generally given up rebutting anything.  Anyone still believing you can decloak twice on the same dial reveal doesn't really care about the rules, and isn't going to be convinced by any rebuttal we offer.



#12 Forgottenlore

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:50 AM

If using Advanced Sensors created a new "before" opportunity, then you could use Advanced Sensors again, and again, until you'd taken all possible actions.


No you couldn't because that WOULD be using the card twice.

But anyway. I just feel that it is important to fully understand both sides of a question.

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#13 AverageBoss

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:53 AM

So, just to make sure I have this clear on what is being said.

 

In the instance of a cloaked Phantom with Advanced Sensors, when "immidiately before revealing maneuver"  hits, two different things are possible from the same trigger:

 

Decloak

Advanced Sensors

 

Because they both trigger at the same time, they can both be triggered, in any order (just as with different effects that take place during or after attacks). If the Phantom Decloaks and then uses AS to Cloak (legal as per above), it cannot Decloak again as this ability was not avaialable when the above triggered.

 

Is that the gist of it?


Edited by AverageBoss, 12 May 2014 - 12:55 AM.


#14 Forgottenlore

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:58 AM

That is how I would play it.

Thanks, Troy

 

Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


#15 Sergovan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:09 AM

Buhallin was referring to the FAQ, Page 4.

 

 

 

Abilities Resolve Once per Opportunity

A game effect can only resolve once per opportunity. For example, Luke Skywalker’s pilot ability applies “when defending,” so he can only use his ability once against each enemy attack.

 

It is the wording on the decloaking that make me believe that this won't apply. Decloaking is triggered by spending a cloak token. We have it already established that tokens are not actions and many times a ship has had more than one focus token and could use it and it has always been legal. What has never been tested is spending two focus tokens at the same time. There has never been a need to as one token affects all eyes visible on the dice

 

In the OP the sequence involves having a cloak token to start, decloaking (by spending the token), taking the cloak action and cloaking (gaining a new token), decloaking (spending the second token here, which may trigger AROO or it may not), and finally revealing the maneuver dial and completing the maneuver.

 

There may be a sequence already that could show this effect with focus tokens. Kyle passes a focus to a focused Garven, Garven attacks. Can Garven spend both focus tokens during his one attack to pass them off? 

 

FAQ page 4:

 

 

Spending Tokens

When attacking, players may spend focus tokens or target locks and elect not to modify any attack dice. When defending, players may spend focus tokens and elect not modify any defense dice and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

 

 

 I would say that Garven spending BOTH tokens during one attack is not allowed as it is using his pilot ability twice during the same activation because of AROO, even though its states in Spending Tokens above that it refers to multiple tokens being spent during the same activation which would seem to contradict the AROO clause.


Edited by Sergovan, 12 May 2014 - 04:09 AM.

Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wing, 2 Yt-1300, 3 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 CR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 1 Tie Phantom, 1 Defender

Tournament results: 11 of 11; 3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; 12 of 28


#16 Buhallin

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:44 AM

 

If using Advanced Sensors created a new "before" opportunity, then you could use Advanced Sensors again, and again, until you'd taken all possible actions.


No you couldn't because that WOULD be using the card twice.

Exactly. Just like trying to decloak twice is using the ability to decloak twice. Barring other restrictions, a card can be used every time the opportunity comes up. If Advanced Sensors creates a new opportunity to decloak, then it also creates a new opportunity for itself. This is why Push the Limit had to be once per turn. If it weren't, Tycho or other stress avoiding pilot could run their entire action bar. (Edit: To be clear on the distinction here: PtL requires the disclaimer because it creates a new action, which is a new opportunity.  Advanced Sensors does nothing of the kind.  If it did, it would need some sort of limitation to keep from chaining itself).

The problem I see with how you're trying to define this is that you're basing it on timing structures we simply don't know about. We don't know if timing acts as single opportunity triggers, as you say, or if they're windows that other effects can add in to so long as you haven't moved past it. There are no rules that tell us, and no rulings that imply that.

On the other hand, the single opportunity rule is well defined. The only two arguments against it are that cards create new opportunities, which is pretty obviously wrong, or that it's somehow different because you're spending a token, which has no support at all. That should be enough to solve this one without inventing new timing rules to cover it.


Edited by Buhallin, 12 May 2014 - 11:17 AM.


#17 Buhallin

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:52 AM

It is the wording on the decloaking that make me believe that this won't apply. Decloaking is triggered by spending a cloak token.

No. Decloaking is triggered by revealing your dial. Spending the token is just part of the process. I think this should be pretty clear. When can you decloak? What happens if you have no dial to reveal, say because you're ionized?

Whether decloaking requires a token or not is irrelevant to the ability.

On the side question of Garven spending both tokens on a single attack, I think he can. The token language doesn't include any of the conditionals that we normally think of as linking an ability to an opportunity, such as "when" or "after". We also generally know that you can spend multiple target locks in the same attack, although for different effects, since R5-K6 has to prohibit spending his new lock. So I don't think the combat token rules are linked to an opportunity, so there's no once per limitation.

#18 Sergovan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:17 AM

 

It is the wording on the decloaking that make me believe that this won't apply. Decloaking is triggered by spending a cloak token.

No. Decloaking is triggered by revealing your dial. Spending the token is just part of the process. I think this should be pretty clear. When can you decloak? What happens if you have no dial to reveal, say because you're ionized?

Whether decloaking requires a token or not is irrelevant to the ability.

On the side question of Garven spending both tokens on a single attack, I think he can. The token language doesn't include any of the conditionals that we normally think of as linking an ability to an opportunity, such as "when" or "after". We also generally know that you can spend multiple target locks in the same attack, although for different effects, since R5-K6 has to prohibit spending his new lock. So I don't think the combat token rules are linked to an opportunity, so there's no once per limitation.

 

I mispoke there. I meant the decloaking is used before the reveal dial step but it is the result of spending a cloak token (not triggered by it).

 

The Garven issue is just muddying the water at the moment but I brought it up as a token counterpoint to see if anything token based would affect the cloak token timing and I don't see much that does.


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wing, 2 Yt-1300, 3 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 CR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 1 Tie Phantom, 1 Defender

Tournament results: 11 of 11; 3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; 12 of 28


#19 XAQT78

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:32 PM

Ooo, Ooo, 12 point Perma cloak FTW!  BOOYAA!  That beats the A-Weiner Indy 500 tactic!


Moving to New Hampshire this week, can't wait to start collecting & battling!

 

Prequel Consistencies and Contradictions


#20 Johdo

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:36 PM

I would like to think that even if the rules allowed for the phantom to get away with all that movement, one of two things would happen...

1. It ends up on the tourney banned list.
2. It gets errataed / clarified in an FAQ.

I don't believe you get all of that movement BTW...IMHO

Edited by Johdo, 14 May 2014 - 07:38 PM.

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