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Common Lore (AAT)


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#1 Aenno

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:54 PM

New Common Lore specialty for Sancionite Psyker Career.

Knowledge of how psykers are recruited and trained, including how Astropaths are used throughout the Imperium, and the basics of astro-telepathy.

Sancionite (1st rank) gain Common Lore (AAT) as starting skill/buy it for 100 exp.

Aspirant (3rd rank) can buy Common Lore (AAT) +10 for 100 exp.

Scholar Materium (4th rank for “seer” line) can buy Common Lore (AAT) +20 for 100 exp.

Lieutenant Savant (6th rank for “militant” line) can buy Common Lore (AAT) +20 for 100 exp.

 

Inditor (Adept 4th rank for “administratum” line) can buy Common Lore (AAT) for 100 exp.

Comptroller and Loremaster (Adept 6th ranks) can buy Common Lore (AAT) for 100 exp and Common Lore (AAT) +10 for 100 exp.

 

Cleric (Cleric 5th rank) can buy Common Lore (AAT) for 100 exp.

Hierophant (Cleric 8th rank for “administrative” line) can buy Common Lore (AAT) +10 for 100 exp.

 

Charlatan (Scum 8th rank for “rogue” line) can buy Common Lore (AAT) for 100 exp.

 

Tech-Priest (Tech-Priest 5th rank) can buy Common Lore (AAT) for 100 exp.

 

 

P.S. I believe that as starting skills Psyker should get Common Lore (AAT) and Tech-Priest should get Common Lore (Machine Cult). By the fluff, they are brainwashed with this skill!


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#2 ColArana

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:44 AM

Wouldn't this technically fall under "Forbidden Lore: Psykers"?


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#3 Aenno

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:56 AM

Wouldn't this technically fall under "Forbidden Lore: Psykers"?

 

Well, it's interesting question.

First of all, it's not forbidden. It's just understanding how working one of the Adeptus structures. Big, powerful and vital structure.

Second, "Forbidden Lore: Psykers" is "Skill  in  identifying  the signs of psykers as well as the results of their powers and the extent of their capabilities." It's possible to tell that "it's connected with psykers, so you can roll that FL to know what is Black Ships, what is Scholastica Psykana or how is local astropathic chore organized", but that means, for example, that Adept will never know such things.

Third, there is two skills for Adeptus Mechanicus. Common Lore (Machine Cult) (A general understanding  of  the  symbols and practices  of  the  Mechanicus,  as  well as such things as formal greetings and identifying rankings) and Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus) (An  understanding  of  the  followers  of  the Machine God, including such things as their observances, common beliefs and core philosophies).

 

So I believe it's not fall under "FL: Psykers".

 

P.S. To be honest I believe that it's strange. AAT is powerful enough in Calixis Sector. One of Templars is bodyguard for Caidin himself. But everywhere when we are reading about, for example, power struggles in Imperium, looks like AAT just not exist! And this is communication, this is people who translate all messages, all commercial, state and military secrets, not to mention psykers in service for nobles, militant savants and others.


Edited by Aenno, 11 May 2014 - 04:00 AM.

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#4 Tenebrae

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:57 AM

Wouldn't this technically fall under "Forbidden Lore: Psykers"?

Agreed.



#5 Simsum

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 06:29 AM

Wouldn't this technically fall under "Forbidden Lore: Psykers"?


By RAW, probably. But like Aenno said, there's no reason knowledge of one of the major arms of the Adeptus Terra should be Forbidden Knowledge. In the Imperium, everyone knows what a Psyker is, and that they should be reported/captured/killed unless they're part of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

Meanwhile, by RAW the FL:Psykers Skill is basically a duplicate of the Psyniscience Skill.

What Aenno proposes both fits better with the internal system logic (CL:AAT for general knowledge, FL:AAT for specifics), and makes much more sense in terms of who knows stuff (Sanctionites know they're Sanctionites, and won't get murdered by the Inquisition for knowing it).

EDIT: I should probably add that we houseruled a similar change ages ago, but we didn't just make a CL:AAT, we changed several FL's to SL's - including AAT & AdMec.

...

TL:DR RAW FL:Psykers is complete nonsense.

Edited by Simsum, 11 May 2014 - 06:32 AM.

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#6 Cogniczar

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 06:31 AM

Technically, it would fall under Common Lore: Imperium (The Adeptus Astra Telepathica is part of the Adeptus Terra), Forbbidden Lore: Inquisition (The League of Black Ships of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica maintained and monitored by the Inquisition), Forbidden Lore: Psykers (The Rites of Sanctioning, etc)

 

With that said, adding a lore based on the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and it's Scholastica Psykana institutes isn't a bad idea. FL: Psykers is an umbrella skill that pertains to both sanctioned and unsanctioned psykers, and could generate an answer based on alll sorts of psyker facts (such as what an Alpha+, this power is accursed, etc). I'd er on making it a forbbidden Lore though - very, very few are privy enough to know the rites of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and it's secrets are by far more secretive than the others (including the Mechanicus!). Whereas Common Lore: Mechanicus would be something that many Forge and Hive Worlders would become accustomed to, there are no planets dedicated to the AAT, only the black ships and it's institutes that are often on important worlds without the populace even being aware of them.


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#7 Aenno

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 08:05 AM

Well, it's not THAT secret.

When we're talking about Common Lore - it means something about symbolics, installations and main public leaders.



#8 Cogniczar

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:23 AM

It means a bit more than that, but still, nothing about the AAT seems common to me. The most experience anyone is going to get working with them will be Rogue Traders and Imperial Navy staff (Astropaths), Imperial Guardsmen (Savant Militants), and Advisors to Lords of the Sector (Planetary, Sector Governors). Outside of these top tier organizations, there just isn't enough room for me to personaly envision any of the rites of the AAT to become common lore.

 

Even the agencies who regularly maintain sub-functions involved with the AAT wouldn't particularly know that much. Adeptus Arbites, for example, who are nominally tasked with ensuring all the tithes of the Imperium are maintained (a vast majority of the Dictates Imperialis), who only be involved in the capture, storage, and transportaiton of unsanctioned psykers to submit them as cargo to the League of Black Ships.


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#9 Aenno

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:03 PM

Well, don't forget Inquisition, who maintain close relationship with AAT. Even big nobles who have "personal" psykers and use astrotelepathy at regular basis (and how can one to make subsectoral business without such working?) working with AAT.

There is a lot of people who work with AAT at regular basis, everybody give them their correspondence, don't forget it.

 

And authors of RT or OW count this skill as Common Lore.


Edited by Aenno, 11 May 2014 - 11:09 PM.


#10 Fgdsfg

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:50 AM

Something a lot of people forget (including a few in this thread), is that Common Lore need not be common. The distinction between Common and Forbidden is entirely in whether the knowledge could result in a sanction or not. The vast majority of information that a skill dealing with the AAT would deal with would be completely legal.

 

Thus Forbidden Lore (Psykers) is entirely inappropriate.

 

 

It means a bit more than that, but still, nothing about the AAT seems common to me. The most experience anyone is going to get working with them will be Rogue Traders and Imperial Navy staff (Astropaths), Imperial Guardsmen (Savant Militants), and Advisors to Lords of the Sector (Planetary, Sector Governors). Outside of these top tier organizations, there just isn't enough room for me to personaly envision any of the rites of the AAT to become common lore.

 

[...]

The skill is just stupidly named. Don't think of it as commmon knowledge. Think of it as mundane knowledge. Common lores might still be esoteric as all hell, it simply means that you won't get shot for knowing it.

 

The skill really should've been named Mundane Lore or something.


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#11 Cogniczar

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:08 AM

After taking a gander at the CL: AAT from Rogue Trader and Only War, and realizing Aenno had simply backported it to Dark Heresy in this thread, I think I was more or less arguing past the point. 

 

 

 

Adeptus Astra Telepathica: Knowledge of how psykers are gathered and sanctioned, including how Astropaths are used throughout the Imperium, and the basics of astro-telepathy.

 

coupled with this defination from Codex Imperialis, page 37

 

 

The need for Astropaths is enormous. They are a common sight in the Imperium and are easily distinguished by their green robes. Astropaths serve in the Fleet as ship-board and shore-based communicators. They also serve in the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, the Adeptus Ministorum, the Space Marines and throughout the Adeptus Terra.

 

Means that what I wrote before fairly stands well still, although I realize that I was arguing more with the thought of Forbidden Lore: AAT in mind than anything. Seeing as how Common Lore: AAT is in Rogue Trader, Only War, and now Dark Heresy 2.0, and the terminology remains the same, it does in fact relate to the very basic knowledge of what they are (psykers!), what they do (mostly, they send interstellar messages! go astrotelepathy!), and how to capture/how they are captured by Imperial Authorities (go go arbites!)

 

 

The skill is just stupidly named. Don't think of it as commmon knowledge. Think of it as mundane knowledge. Common lores might still be esoteric as all hell, it simply means that you won't get shot for knowing it.

 

The skill really should've been named Mundane Lore or something.

 

I don't get this statement. Maybe it's a language thing, but common and mundane are synonymous as far as I'm aware. The name change here would equate to the same thing to me. XD

 

As the lines progress, and after a recap looking at the specialist definitions, the common lores have shaped up by OW and DH2.0 to be fairly consistent with non-esoteric knowledge. 



#12 Lynata

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:15 AM

I don't get this statement. Maybe it's a language thing, but common and mundane are synonymous as far as I'm aware. The name change here would equate to the same thing to me. XD

 

He's got a point in that I understood "common" to mean "widespread", too, whereas "mundane" sounds more like "not unusual" or "not illegal" - a small, but important difference.

 

I'm not sure if this is really what the designers had in mind. Yes, it makes sense when you contrast it to Forbidden Knowledge, but less so when you compare it to Scholastic Knowledge. Because arguably, Scholastic Knowledge is not illegal either.

 

I'd have to re-read what the books actually say on this subject. Did they not actually deliver a detailed explanation on what these terms mean for the game in the Inquisitor's Handbook?


Edited by Lynata, 12 May 2014 - 11:17 AM.

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#13 Simsum

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:29 AM

The skill really should've been named Mundane Lore or something.


Great post. 'Cursory' would probably be better than 'mundane', though, since mundane kind of implies that opposite(s) exist and that isn't necessarily the case.

#14 Fgdsfg

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 01:34 PM

"Cursory" would imply to me that it's not in-depth, such as a "cursory examination", glancing over the information.

 

 

 

I don't get this statement. Maybe it's a language thing, but common and mundane are synonymous as far as I'm aware. The name change here would equate to the same thing to me. XD

 

He's got a point in that I understood "common" to mean "widespread", too, whereas "mundane" sounds more like "not unusual" or "not illegal" - a small, but important difference.

 

I'm not sure if this is really what the designers had in mind. Yes, it makes sense when you contrast it to Forbidden Knowledge, but less so when you compare it to Scholastic Knowledge. Because arguably, Scholastic Knowledge is not illegal either.

 

I'd have to re-read what the books actually say on this subject. Did they not actually deliver a detailed explanation on what these terms mean for the game in the Inquisitor's Handbook?

 

I don't remember what book(s) it is in, but the difference between Common/Forbidden Lore(s) and Scholastic, is that while Scholastic, much like common, is completely legal (although some can definitely be used in illegal ways), Scholastic Lore requires concentrated effort and study, whereas Common Lores is something you might just 'pick up'.

Scholastic Lore basically requires a school or some kind of formal education. Common Lore does not.

My personal interpretation, not specifically supported by any rulebook is that also, Scholastic Lore might skirt the borders of legality, while Common Lore is universally legal - it's just something anyone might know - while Forbidden Lore is universally illegal without specific sanction.

I think in particular, they make this clear in Rogue Trader Core Rulebook, I think. However, they are also inconsistent in how this is later applied. For example, Common Lore (Screaming Vortex) and Common Lore (Jericho Reach). These are skills used in Black Crusade and Deathwatch respectively, and I think it's even listed in Only War.

But there's no way in hell knowledge of the Screaming Vortex's inner workings and locales wouldn't result in immediate interrogation or execution. Jericho Reach is less of an issue, since there are a ways someone (like a Rogue Trader or General or Commissar) that is part of the Achillus Crusade would know how the Jericho Reach is composed - but a regular schmo? Knowing about the Jericho Reach and the Achilus Crusade? Immediate blam.


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#15 Simsum

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:14 PM

"Cursory" would imply to me that it's not in-depth, such as a "cursory examination", glancing over the information.


But isn't that basically what the CL Skill is? Some general high concept/big picture understanding of a subject?

Like.. Like knowing basic cosmology, for example. You don't actually need a degree in astrophysics to get the gist of it, you just need 10 minutes of TV infotainment with some fancy CGI and perhaps a few seconds or real pictures/video.

And yet, some 30-40% of the population in first world countries where such infotainment is near-unavoidable, either have no idea Earth orbits the Sun, or refuse to accept it as fact for various unreasons.

#16 darkforce

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 06:46 PM

the Text in the Core Rulebook concerning this topic goes as such:

 

Use the Common Lore skill to recall the habits, institutions, traditions, public figures and superstitions of a particular  world, cultural group, organisation or race. This Skill does not represent scholarly learning (that is Scholastic  Lore), nor obscure forbidden knowledge (that  is  Forbidden Lore), but rather the basics you learn by growing up or travelling  extensively through a region.
 
The text in Only War is roughly similar, this implies a Common Lore: Psykers should exist, but I doubt one would be able to discern much more then "Psykers are dangerous, rounded up on a regular basis and either deported to somewhere or shot. Some of them supposedly come back after years, but most simply disappear forever. The Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarum) sometimes uses psykers as combat troops, while sometimes you have to go to a temple with a lot of psykers to send a message off-world.
 
I think that'd be roughly the extend of a Common Lore about psykers, since the text about Common Lores implies it heavily relies on the setting what you can know and what not, since you don't exactly study the subject, as opposed to scholastic lore. 

Edited by darkforce, 13 May 2014 - 01:42 AM.

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#17 ColArana

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:01 PM

 

The text in Only War is roughly similar, this implies a Common Lore: Psykers should exist, but I doubt one would be able to discern much more then "Psykers are dangerous, rounded up on a regular basis and either deported to somewhere or shot. Some of them supposedly come back after years, but most simply disappear forever. The Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarum) sometimes uses psykers as combat troops, while sometimes you have to go to a temple with a lot of psykers to send a message off-world.

 

 

And that they can blow you up with their minds-- deliberately or by accident, so you had best avoid them if you can, and watch them carefully if you can't.



#18 Lynata

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:54 PM

[...] the basics you learn by growing  up  or  travelling  extensively through a region.

 

A-ha! Thanks for the quote - glad my memory didn't fail me entirely again this time. :D


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#19 Fgdsfg

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:15 PM

 

"Cursory" would imply to me that it's not in-depth, such as a "cursory examination", glancing over the information.


But isn't that basically what the CL Skill is? Some general high concept/big picture understanding of a subject?

Like.. Like knowing basic cosmology, for example. You don't actually need a degree in astrophysics to get the gist of it, you just need 10 minutes of TV infotainment with some fancy CGI and perhaps a few seconds or real pictures/video.

And yet, some 30-40% of the population in first world countries where such infotainment is near-unavoidable, either have no idea Earth orbits the Sun, or refuse to accept it as fact for various unreasons.

 

Not necessarily. Common Lore deals with the regular or casually learned. But it need not be cursory. Let's take Common Lore (Koronus Expanse) for example. There's nothing preventing you from having an in-depth knowledge of the nature and layout of the Expannse, yet attaining such in-depth knowledge would in no way be cursory.

Common Lore (A.A. Telepathica) is another good example. While Common Lore would definitely cover cursory knowledge of the organitzation, such as "they deal with psykers" or "they are responsible for the astropaths",, it would also cover nearly esoteric (but not forbidden) knowledge, such as perhaps a location of a training facility or that Psykers are kept in stasis on the Blackships.

 

Which brings me to a fluff question on the topic: Would the knowledge that psykers are sacrified to the choir of the astronomican (as opposed to "eaten by the Emperor") be forbidden? If it is, that's one of the few reasons I could see for a Forbidden Lore (A.A. Telepathica) skill. It's definitely not FL Psykers, and if it's forbidden, it can't be CL AAT.

Personally, I'd consider it legal, but largely unknown, so.. Very Hard CL AAT for the unsanctioned?


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#20 Simsum

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:31 PM

Point taken on the CL thing. Didn't think that through, sorry.

 

As for the various grim fates that befall most Psykers, I would treat such information as being potentially subversive, and thus Forbidden Lore.


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