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You get hit in your lack of leg.


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#1 TheCreepingDark

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:50 AM

One of my players took an autocannon shot to the leg, blowing it clean off, he survived but the squad's logitics rating is low enough that he has better than average odds of being unable to get ahold of a replacement.  My questions are: What happens if he tkes a hit to the same location, which is no longer there? Does it just miss, or does it shift to another limb? And what about the case of multiple hits?

Maybe I just missed the rule on this, but I can't seem to find anything oficial on it.


Edited by TheCreepingDark, 09 May 2014 - 09:56 AM.


#2 Myrion

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:49 AM

Wouldn't the bigger question be how he gets back into combat without a replacement?

Otherwise I'd personally go with a miss in case of multiple hits and a shift to the other leg for single hits: It never gets him out of being hit entirely, but sometimes he gets a tiny bit lucky for it.


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#3 Lynata

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:23 AM

Wouldn't the bigger question be how he gets back into combat without a replacement?

 

"It's just a flesh wound!"


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#4 Fgdsfg

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 01:47 PM

Wouldn't the bigger question be how he gets back into combat without a replacement?

Otherwise I'd personally go with a miss in case of multiple hits and a shift to the other leg for single hits: It never gets him out of being hit entirely, but sometimes he gets a tiny bit lucky for it.

You can always get back into combat. Question is how well you do.


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#5 ak-73

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:19 PM

I would rule that it misses. If a leg behind impenetratable cover gets hit. you don't reassign it to another location either.

I don't think there is an official ruling.

 

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#6 Tenebrae

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:50 PM

I would rule that it misses. If a leg behind impenetratable cover gets hit. you don't reassign it to another location either.

Agreed.


Edited by Tenebrae, 09 May 2014 - 02:51 PM.

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#7 SolP

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:24 AM

You could always just give him a Poor Craftmanship Bionic Leg, that gives them +20% on logistics, or you could make it extra squicky and slow.



#8 Amaimon

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:52 AM

I would rule that it hits the body. Lack of leg, doesn't give you another rating 15 force field. If I hack off both my legs, then ill have a rating 30 force field. Or maybe I'm just smaller and the size goes down by one? But then I'll only have -10 to hit. Better stick to bigger size, and another save. 



#9 SolP

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 02:46 AM

If you are missing a leg, you are not going to fight. You can't walk, you can maybe sit or lean against something, but you can't stand by your self.

When you get back to camp, and they don't have a bionic leg for you, you will be shipped off world, or the commisar will simply shoot you, since you have no value as a soldier and thus no value to The Emperor.

But untill the soldier gets a new leg, and is not in cover, I would split the hit-chance to the other leg and/or body.



#10 Myrion

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:21 AM

Kitchen help (peeling potatoes) duty until the replacement part arrives or similar things seem a little more likely than just shooting the soldier. While I can imagine this happening in a penal legion, you're not gonna shoot a Catachan scout or a Cadian guardsman just because it'll take a while before your stock of bionic legs is replenished.

(Incidentally: I believe that most regiments are going to have a constant supply of bionic/cybernetic bodyparts ready. If you fail a roll for a bionic replacement, I think you should only have to wait longer and make do with a peg leg for that time, not get nothing at all.)


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#11 Captain Erf

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:34 AM

In the interest of getting the player back in the game, I'd probaly waive that logistics roll altogether, or at least give him a poor version until he rolls well enough for a normal version.

 

It would not be so much a matter of the Guardsman requesting a limb, the medics would do that for him. Think of it as mission assignment gear. HQ will assign him a leg because he will need it in pretty much every mission (barring the potato mission).


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#12 venkelos

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:57 AM

Kitchen help (peeling potatoes) duty until the replacement part arrives or similar things seem a little more likely than just shooting the soldier. While I can imagine this happening in a penal legion, you're not gonna shoot a Catachan scout or a Cadian guardsman just because it'll take a while before your stock of bionic legs is replenished.

(Incidentally: I believe that most regiments are going to have a constant supply of bionic/cybernetic bodyparts ready. If you fail a roll for a bionic replacement, I think you should only have to wait longer and make do with a peg leg for that time, not get nothing at all.)

Considering the sheer quantity of schmucks in 40K with hideous tubes sticking out of them, and probably several other common types of augments and replacements, I would guess that, for the most part, your regiment won't run out of cybenetics. Certainly replacing a whole arm or leg is a serious thing, and lots of Guardsmen can be hurt fighting Orks, Eldar, and worse, those that survive at all, but I still expect that the surplus of not great cybernetics should hold through; you might need to wait for a quality one, but even a crummy leg will keep you mobile, and if the Guard will willingly throw hundreds of men into the line of a tank, hoping maybe just to slow it down by gumming up the treads, I can see them pressing low-quality prosthetics  on folks, to get them back into the fight, and if they continue to fight, and survive, then maybe they'll be worthy of getting a Good-quality replacement, as one becomes available. It can be a nice option alongside a promotion or a medal.


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#13 SolP

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:30 PM

That was exactly the point of my first comment, that there are always bionica/cybernetics available, and that if the group doesn't have enough logistics to get one RAW, just make it crappy.

 

My other comment was just a respons to the people still arguing over hit-locations, as if a one-legged soldier would just hop around in combat like nothing had happened.



#14 Lynata

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:38 PM

It might also be a question of the regiment's reputation or the trooper's rank and experience.

 

I mean, maybe that's just me, but on the one hand there's all this stuff about a soldier's lasgun being worth more than the soldier, and then on the other "free cybernetics, whee!" - even low quality stuff sounds a bit expensive to just hand out to anyone.

 

That's not to say that I would not point to cyber-limbs as a solution anyways, just that perhaps the whole concept of "life is cheap" might get lost unless you continue to support it in the background. How about, for example, getting used cybernetics? Maybe they're low quality not because they were made bad, but simply because this leg, which was once of common quality, has already carried three other soldiers into battle before you, and looks a bit worn after getting blown up and mauled together with its previous owners.

 

This approach also adds a bit of potential for grimdark black humour from the medics.

 

"Take good care of this, son, we're gonna need that back."

 

or

 

"You should be proud, this leg stood next to Commissar Yarrick once."


Edited by Lynata, 13 May 2014 - 01:45 PM.

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#15 TheCreepingDark

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:48 AM

Predictably my players failed the logistics test, even when trying for a poor quality leg, so the commissar player took pity on him and whittled him a peg leg. I'm probably gonna go with the shot just missing, well, after it's taken out his peg leg at least, I can't imnagine a pegleg having more than a couple of structure points, and I can imagine this becoming a running gag.

 

For those asking how he'd get to a fight, the companion lends him a shoulder and he hops. He's the heavy gunner of the team, so he doesn't move a whole lot anyway, just get him to a position and he goes prone and shoots till he runs out of ammo, or mans the Chimera's pintle when the mission calls for one.

This approach also adds a bit of potential for grimdark black humour from the medics.

 

"Take good care of this, son, we're gonna need that back."

 

or

 

"You should be proud, this leg stood next to Commissar Yarrick once."

I am definately going to be doing that now, assuming they ever make the roll.


Edited by TheCreepingDark, 14 May 2014 - 02:49 AM.

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#16 venkelos

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:54 AM

It might also be a question of the regiment's reputation or the trooper's rank and experience.

 

I mean, maybe that's just me, but on the one hand there's all this stuff about a soldier's lasgun being worth more than the soldier, and then on the other "free cybernetics, whee!" - even low quality stuff sounds a bit expensive to just hand out to anyone.

 

That's not to say that I would not point to cyber-limbs as a solution anyways, just that perhaps the whole concept of "life is cheap" might get lost unless you continue to support it in the background. How about, for example, getting used cybernetics? Maybe they're low quality not because they were made bad, but simply because this leg, which was once of common quality, has already carried three other soldiers into battle before you, and looks a bit worn after getting blown up and mauled together with its previous owners.

 

This approach also adds a bit of potential for grimdark black humour from the medics.

 

"Take good care of this, son, we're gonna need that back."

 

or

 

"You should be proud, this leg stood next to Commissar Yarrick once."

This is fun and cool, sort of a Guard variant of Deathwatch relics. "This bolter has been in the hands of numerous Astartes before you, heroes even when compared to those others "lesser" men simply call "heroes." Granted, that bolter will probably be BETTER THAN AVERAGE quality, and possibly an additional property/power, while the Guard limb might be rickety, worn, and such, but it's still carrying the next in line through battle, doing its part, like that boltgun, to prosecute the Emperor's will against His enemies. Maybe a bit more refuse than relic, but still.

 

As an aside, it MIGHT be seen as an incident of posthumous honor, especially among the often meatgrinder and uncaring Guard, if someone who was viewed as important, or a hero, to be allowed to be buried (of they do that) with their cybernetics. I don't expect anyone to rush to reclaim Yarrick's power klaw, to ready it for the next bearer, but others might be. As an example, albeit a ludicrously unnecessary one, in Rogue Trader's Lure of the Expanse, the battleship Light of Terra is captained by a cyborg permanently anchored into his command throne. While he has all the necessary bits to move, were he unanchored, he remains immobile for millennia. If the party of such a game were to SOMEHOW keep the ship, and do so with some aide from the benighted Lord-Captain Roth, when the ship was finished, and the man removed from his command throne, I have a skit set where he walks, shakily, for the first time in centuries, to take his resting place. The crew would take him to Saint Drusus's tomb, and he would be interred near his former master. The parts that comprise much of his body now are ancient marvels, and many Tech Priests would squee to get to examine them, but even though he was soon to be dead, and entombed for all eternity, it is decided that, in honor of his services, and what have you, Captain Roth would not be "disassembled", taking his cybernetics with him. This "never likely to happen" was a thought I had before all the stuff with the Return of Drusus, so not sure how that would all change, but it still seemed cool, and would be a nice example of legitly letting go of some high-end tech, just because.

 

I can see some PCs and NPCs, being similarly honored, by taking such bits with them. Not sure if it's really important, with their perceptions of the afterlife, and the fluff's declaration that human souls just poof, anyway, to hell with the Emperor (maybe that got retconned since), but I still like it.



#17 Lynata

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:46 AM

As an aside, it MIGHT be seen as an incident of posthumous honor, especially among the often meatgrinder and uncaring Guard, if someone who was viewed as important, or a hero, to be allowed to be buried (of they do that) with their cybernetics.

 

This is a great idea. 

 

In my interpretation it'd probably have to be a true hero (which in many cases might be a term reserved for officers), although it may also simply depend on the regiment - both on its homeworld culture, as well as how it keeps being supplied.
 
I'm going by the old Codex fluff in that a regiment, once raised, won't see much influx in terms of equipment or manpower (making children fathered or born by the Guardsmen and then raised in the wagon train all the more important as future replacements). In this model, the regiment may be issued with a stockpile of bionics once, necessitating the .. um, recycling of reusable parts from casualties.
More famous regiments, or ones active in an important warzone, may have more access to a greater selection of supplies.
 
Likewise, in some cultures, tradition and/or religious practice might forbid the removal of limbs (including artificial ones) from any fallen soldier, whilst in others it would be seen as only natural because the corpse is getting incinerated anyways and the corporeal remains are of no consequence for the fate of the fallen soldier's soul.
 
And then there is considerable potential for superstition by basically "walking with someone elses leg". There could be horror stories shared at the regiment's campfires on how, for example, once a Guardsman was fitted with the bionic hand of a sadistic Sergeant and how one night he woke up in terror realising that the metallic fingers were trying to strangle him. Ever since that night he was convinced his hand was out to kill him. And guess what, a month ago he was found dead ... scuttlebutt says he shot himself ...
 
*the Valhallan Guardswoman lowers her voice and leans in closer, the orange light of the flickering glowlamp curling frightening shadows across the young sniper's face*
 
... and the laspistol was found in his bionic hand.
 
..
 
What?! It's true, I heard it from a comrade in B company, who knows the guy that poor man shared his tent with! :P
 

 

I can see some PCs and NPCs, being similarly honored, by taking such bits with them. Not sure if it's really important, with their perceptions of the afterlife, and the fluff's declaration that human souls just poof, anyway, to hell with the Emperor (maybe that got retconned since), but I still like it.

 

Yeah, perceptions of afterlife are sure to differ depending on the homeworld. I recall it being mentioned that the Ecclesiarchy's core doctrine is that the Emperor's warriors are joining him in the afterlife for the final battle (kind of like Valhalla and Ragnarök), which is also alluded to in some of the Battle Sister quotes of the old Black Industries Inquisitor's Handbook ("tomorrow we shall be at our Father's side"), but it's questionable how widespread this actually is, given the Ministorum's practice of absorbing native faiths rather than replacing them.

 

I too remember reading about the truth about human souls actually dissolving in the Warp (I think this was in either a Chaos or Eldar Codex), but what does the truth matter, right? Certainly, none of the characters in your group would follow such heretical convictions. ;)

 

Neat plans for that ship and its master, too, by the way!


Edited by Lynata, 14 May 2014 - 11:54 AM.

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#18 pearldrum1

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:26 PM

I would rule that it hits the body. Lack of leg, doesn't give you another rating 15 force field. If I hack off both my legs, then ill have a rating 30 force field. Or maybe I'm just smaller and the size goes down by one? But then I'll only have -10 to hit. Better stick to bigger size, and another save. 

 

This doesn't make sense. Unless it is a called shot to a specific location, the location determined by the dice is simply where that shot goes. If there is no leg there for it to hit, then it passes through thin air. Not having a limb doesn't mean you are less likely to get hit in OTHER places, it just means that you cannot get hit where the lost limb used to be. The force field analogy is lacking.

 

I believe Lynata said it earlier: Multiple shots to this particular leg means that while the first misses the second and third are probably going to get some body.



#19 Lynata

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:25 PM

I believe Lynata said it earlier: Multiple shots to this particular leg means that while the first misses the second and third are probably going to get some body.

 

That wasn't me, but Myrion said something like it.

 

tbh, it's a matter of perspective:

 

You could argue that any shot on this location just misses, "because common sense": can't hit what's not there

-or-

You could argue that the hit chance is simply reassigned to another location, because you can't miss if the Attack roll already decided it's a hit, no matter what the body location die says.

 

And in the latter case, you still have several options on how exactly to reassign the hit. An easy fix would be to just shift it to the other leg. A more complicated approach would be to re-calculate the entire body location table to keep the percentage ratio (probably the more realistic solution, for what little realism actually means in this particular case).

 

It's just yet another consequence of a single effect (where does my shot land?) being split into multiple tests (does the attack hit a character? where does it hit the character?) - much like I've been nagging about damage rolls being silly if your accuracy is already determined by the Attack roll (awesome, I rolled 8 on the d100! aww, now I rolled a 1 on the d10).

 

I could propose to incorporate the hit location table into the Attack roll by looking at the ones result on the d100, but I'm getting ahead of myself - and the debate.  :lol:


Edited by Lynata, 14 May 2014 - 11:26 PM.

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#20 pearldrum1

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:27 PM

Here is how we handle it:

 

We flip a coin. On heads, the Emperor decided that your worthless Guardsman life was worth zero in the grand scheme of things and it strikes your PC in the face.

 

On tails, see above.


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