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#21 Whitewing

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:24 PM

 

It's not supposed to be balanced though. Rumor quests shouldn't be something you always play everytime. The decision to play them is nearly always in the overlord's hands (except when the rare card to force him to play one shows up). That means it needs to be a risk for the overlord to play them, or else they'll ALWAYS play it and then that mechanic is pointless. But it also needs to be enough of a potential reward for the overlord for him to want to play it sometimes.

Rewarding the overlord with an extra experience point if he wins means that it's worth it to play for the overlord if he believes he will win (especially if it's his quest choice), but if he's not sure of it, it's a gamble. In this way, it's no more a big deal for the overlord to play it than say, A Fat Goblin or Castle Daerion where the prize is extra gold for the heroes or extra xp for the overlord. Also, the extra XP might make the players less likely to spend time grabbing all the treasure on these rumor quests and instead try to guarantee a win, meaning even when you lose as overlord, you don't lose as much relatively.

 

You say that it should be a risk for the OL to play it, yet a risk with little return is never going to be worth it. Then we get stuck back at the point where an OL is still not playing OL cards because the injection of gold into the game makes the heroes uber powerful - giving the heroes a 37% more gold is not a risk, its virtually handing them the game.

 

Sorry but i do not feel that just adding a 1xp to the quest rewards  for the OL alone fixes the problem, it might be part of a solution but i do not believe its the entire solution.

 

I am not trying to make things perfectly balanced, however the current rules are so skewed to the heroes that the OL would be insane to ever play a rumor quest if he wants to win a campaign.

 

I disagree. I have had times where, knowing the party's weaknesses and layout, have chosen to play rumor cards when it was my quest pick to force us to do it immediately. The party got destroyed hard, I got my relic, they got almost no loot.

This was before we implemented that houserule too. Gold is helpful for the heroes, no doubt, but it's not nearly as big a deal as some people are making it out to be. There are already quests which have the rewards being 25 gold per hero vs. 1 xp for the overlord. Yeah they might get some loot (honestly though, it's not as if they're guaranteed to get all the loot. And if you asked me if I'd take Her Majesty's Malice and an experience point in exchange for letting the party have 3 or 4 search tokens, I'll almost always say yes to that.

The main issue is that the overlord isn't guaranteed a victory, so thus the risk.



#22 mm26

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:40 AM

I am not trying to make things perfectly balanced, however the current rules are so skewed to the heroes that the OL would be insane to ever play a rumor quest if he wants to win a campaign.

Not true. Some of the Trollfens rewards are balanced or even skewed towards the OL. 

 

For Ghost Town, for instance, the Taskmaster's Ring is more useful than the Workman's Ring and the Secrets of the Flesh is a good OL card. Even with the extra gold, the quest is pretty even if even a little in the OL's favor.



#23 BentoSan

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:47 AM

 

I am not trying to make things perfectly balanced, however the current rules are so skewed to the heroes that the OL would be insane to ever play a rumor quest if he wants to win a campaign.

Not true. Some of the Trollfens rewards are balanced or even skewed towards the OL. 

 

For Ghost Town, for instance, the Taskmaster's Ring is more useful than the Workman's Ring and the Secrets of the Flesh is a good OL card. Even with the extra gold, the quest is pretty even if even a little in the OL's favor.

 

 

I agree with that, the secrets of the flesh is a really good overlord card. Thats an example of a quest that would not need 1xp added to it for sure.



#24 Indalecio

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:30 AM

Yeah but I mean, come on... Nobody is saying that there won't be any situation where the OL might still have an edge in a quest, or a situation where it might be worth the gamble because of factor X, Y and Z. There might still be good reasons to travel to North Korea for instance, although I'll probably have to work hard to think of one.

 

In terms of Relics, even a good one, it's still a piece of equipment you can't rely on, so it makes no relevance that said relic makes you roll a million dice when attacking or give your Lieutenant a hug every turn. People seem to miss the point that getting a OL relic does stone nothing unless a million conditions are fulfilled, one of them being that your Heroes are foolish enough to let you use it. As a comparison, how many conditions need to be met for heroes to play their cards? Frankly, there is no way the Heroes would engage Alric with the Duskblade in melee for instance. If your heroes do so, then good for you I guess. Bad decisions will always affect your win/lose ratio so that's not even remotely a point.

 

Then of course there will be this one quest where the OL reward is not "plain nothing" and could be worth considering depending on context. Of course to each its own metagame, if you can consistently crush your heroes then it gives you free hands to pick whatever quests you want and have a decent shot at the reward. Me, I can't, my heroes are clever persons, they decide carefully their course of actions as long as one of them is not completely drunk. I mean no offense to the good people in the world playing Descent where the OL is the undefeated mastermind, but if your heroes are experienced there is no reason why they wouldn't be able to put up a decent challenge. The game virtually hands over the keys to them! Then sure, bar all marginal situations you want like playing the game in a strip bar with the OL wearing a headset and turning his back to the scene. or let your girlfriend  win the game as a OL so you can get laid tonight. Of course if you have an angel besides you to grant you awesome rolls and draws every turn, alternatively your heroes are truly cursed, then you can virtually win any quest in any situation.

 

But in a vacuum:

 

- XP for the Overlord, while necessary are largely overestimated. 1 OL XP is not 1 Hero XP. These are purchases you may never be able to use, plus you are forced to purchase lower tier cards first, which is okay in such but do your heroes suffer the same limitation? The answer is no. But you know what folks, guess what, ANY OL card you purchase, and I really think every single of them without exception, is not going to be better than Dash or Frenzy anyway. These are the 4 cards you need to use in this game to do anything. I don't keep track of every detail on every quests but I'm fairly sure these have been the groundbreaking cards, the rest of the OL cards being more of a support or enablers to weaken the heroes and basically grant you time to draw these. So pushing the reasoning forward, there is almost no point in buying anything else than say Plan Ahead and the likes to just maximize your chance to draw these 4 cards in every encounter. The rest of the cards can be cool, but in general they will be very situational in comparison, or at least not as crucial.

 

- The heroes have nothing to lose in this game and everything to gain. Gold my friends IS a big deal and I am totally shocked to hear that people might be thinking otherwise. So in your games, shopping has no relevance? Drawing 1-2 great piece of equipment out of 5 cards every turn that the heroes can afford to buy is not game changing? Drawing the freaking search card allowing you to draw a random item in the shop deck is no big deal? Sounds liike you're playing in magical Christmas land and Santa is the OL. Again if you heroes deliberately dumb down their strategy and choices then it tells a lot about why you would think the game is more balanced than I do.

 

OL cards should all be placed face up similarly to class cards. You exhaust, you refresh, and so on. A separate deck with smaller/random upgrades should be what you draw each turn. Ultimately (inspired by a thread I saw on Blood Bowl TM for making it a LCG instead - for those who know the game), each monster group should have its own little deck where you draw one random effect each turn. Applying for FFG design team as we speak, lol.

 

This is a great game and also the most unbalanced I've ever played. EVERYTHING is made to satisfy the heroes. But this is also a very classic way to design a RPG-like fantasy game. I still believe this game does a fantastic job at making the OL role interesting, but I think there is still some work to do to make the challenge more even. At the moment, the tools the OL has at disposal seem great on paper but impossible to use in practice.


Edited by Indalecio, 16 May 2014 - 02:31 AM.

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#25 BentoSan

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 05:45 AM

While i agree that 1 extra xp for the OL is not nearly as useful for a hero, id just want to say that the addition of extra XP for the OL can be a good thing. There are a certain few very powerful combinations of cards that can be played with one another that require ALOT of xp which dulls their utility, the addition of XP makes these combinations much more viable play options and thus gives the OL more of a bite.

 

The extra shopping steps in combination with the extra gold however far outweigh any return from some extra XP even if it does make these OL card combinations more viable. In 2 rumor quests an extra 10 act 2 shopping cards are made available to the heroes before the finale - a 66% increase of act 2 shop item cards in combination with a 36% increase in gold is HUGE. Sure the heroes will not get all the extra gold in every quest, but if you make 36% more available search tokens in a campaign you are still going to get a roughly 36% increase in the amount of gold available for the heroes.

 

Its the state that the heroes and OL are in going into the finale which is the most important thing here. Its also worth mentioning that the utility of relics is increased in the finale because there is an increased amount of lieutenants on the board - that utility is not as great as it is for the heroes but it is important to factor into any house rule that could be made.


Edited by BentoSan, 16 May 2014 - 05:46 AM.

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#26 mm26

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:14 AM

That's an awfully long rant.

 

The Taskmaster's Ring is a great relic for the OL. Why? Same reason that you like Dash. Movement points are key, especially many times for lieutenants who are trying to race somewhere. What do they have to do to use it? Get a surge. Not terribly difficult. And it's the reward for 2 of the 3 Act I rumor quests for Trollfens, which are under the OL's control when and whether to play. The Act II relics are better for the heroes, especially since they can always use them whereas the OL is limited to just when he has a Lieutenant in play, but the Omen of Blight isn't bad.

 

The Secrets of Flesh is a very good OL card. There's a lot of times that I would prefer to see that to a Dash. Healing every monster on the board 1-3 health? Crazy good. The OL can also gain up to 6 threat from each rumor quest; that is nearly worth the 150 gold they may get out of it.

 

The LotW rewards are pretty heavily skewed towards the heroes. Heroes using Valyndra's Bane every encounters is much, much, much better than the OL having the option to use Her Majesty's Malice with a lieutenant. Similarly, Aurium Mail is much, much better than Valyndra's Gift.

 

But that's why Trollfens is better balanced than LotW. And that's why I would house-rule LotW and not Trollfens. But that's based off of the actual and specific things of each quest, not some diatribe on how things sit generally in some theoretical balance between the OL and heroes.



#27 Indalecio

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:16 AM

While i agree that 1 extra xp for the OL is not nearly as useful for a hero, id just want to say that the addition of extra XP for the OL can be a good thing. There are a certain few very powerful combinations of cards that can be played with one another that require ALOT of xp which dulls their utility, the addition of XP makes these combinations much more viable play options and thus gives the OL more of a bite.

 

The extra shopping steps in combination with the extra gold however far outweigh any return from some extra XP even if it does make these OL card combinations more viable. In 2 rumor quests an extra 10 act 2 shopping cards are made available to the heroes before the finale - a 66% increase of act 2 shop item cards in combination with a 36% increase in gold is HUGE. Sure the heroes will not get all the extra gold in every quest, but if you make 36% more available search tokens in a campaign you are still going to get a roughly 36% increase in the amount of gold available for the heroes.

 

Its the state that the heroes and OL are in going into the finale which is the most important thing here. Its also worth mentioning that the utility of relics is increased in the finale because there is an increased amount of lieutenants on the board - that utility is not as great as it is for the heroes but it is important to factor into any house rule that could be made.

 

I agree with all of your points. 

 

About the OL XP points, I also believe the re-spec OL reward you can get in some quests is probably under-hyped, as it allows you to get rid of some cards that either have been acting poorly or have lost their relevance through a change of context (heroes upgrading themselves mostly). I think it looks like a powerful tool (I haven't used it yet), but maybe some other OLs here will say that it's more of a desperate thing to do, given the fact you would define your skills roadmap beforehand and keep focus on it so technically speaking a re-spec would attest a failure in either planning or capacity to adapt. I don't know. Also, I believe the same re-spec reward is available to the heroes, and it feels far more useful since they can suddenly afford a more expensive card at the price of unused skills without having to deal with a class 1/2/3 system like the OL.

 

And about the Finale, it's true that Relics may be more viable for just these particular quests than I would have thought, however this is still assuming the lieutenants haven't been killed (which is far from given) and assuming that you are not playing Gryvorn Unleashed since its second encounter has Zachy alone.



#28 Zaltyre

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:36 AM

I used the respec in the last campaign right before the finale to change classes. I had been a basic 2 punisher, and I sold all of my low level punisher cards and bought warlord cards to replace them- I kept Blood Bargaining and Trading Pains, as they would be useful in the finale, but otherwise it was an opportunity to tailor my deck specifically to the finale- incredibly useful. Playing that quest earlier in the campaign would have been significantly less useful, as I didn't have the large pool of XP to customize.



#29 Indalecio

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:55 AM

That's an awfully long rant.

 

The Taskmaster's Ring is a great relic for the OL. Why? Same reason that you like Dash. Movement points are key, especially many times for lieutenants who are trying to race somewhere. What do they have to do to use it? Get a surge. Not terribly difficult. And it's the reward for 2 of the 3 Act I rumor quests for Trollfens, which are under the OL's control when and whether to play. The Act II relics are better for the heroes, especially since they can always use them whereas the OL is limited to just when he has a Lieutenant in play, but the Omen of Blight isn't bad.

 

The Secrets of Flesh is a very good OL card. There's a lot of times that I would prefer to see that to a Dash. Healing every monster on the board 1-3 health? Crazy good. The OL can also gain up to 6 threat from each rumor quest; that is nearly worth the 150 gold they may get out of it.

 

The LotW rewards are pretty heavily skewed towards the heroes. Heroes using Valyndra's Bane every encounters is much, much, much better than the OL having the option to use Her Majesty's Malice with a lieutenant. Similarly, Aurium Mail is much, much better than Valyndra's Gift.

 

But that's why Trollfens is better balanced than LotW. And that's why I would house-rule LotW and not Trollfens. But that's based off of the actual and specific things of each quest, not some diatribe on how things sit generally in some theoretical balance between the OL and heroes.

 

Yeah I have difficulties keeping my rant short so please bear with me, lol. Anyway, I'm not going to re-expose again why I think relics and plot cards are overhyped, but it has never been a question about what's printed on the card and how good it looks, my point has always been about how you practically use these things in a game of Descent to increase your odds at winning. Because I am not questioning Taskmaster's Ring is a good relic, it's just that it would be very hard for me to actually use it at all. I'm okay with the whole idea of collecting nice gear "for the future to come" but more often than not you sit with a quest and only a % of all investment/rewards available to you. Heroes have 100% of that in front of them. That's why I'm ranting. If you played this quest, got this relic, got to use it in a quest and it did great deeds then good for you. I'm just trying to say that your situation is not that common from what I've experienced so far. And even if you disagree with that, you can still see the assymetry between the OL mechanisms and the heroes mechanisms. Now if it was made like this to prevent the OL from becoming too powerful, fair enough. My only reality is that the present state of these rules makes it very hard for the OL to run a campaign with decent odds of winning quests. 

 

About the OL card, are you serious? Far from me to say the card is worse than any others, but are you actually saying it's a better card than Dash? If your heroes leave monsters alive whether it is at 8 or 1 life - it doesn't matter - you still get two actions per mini during your turn. (okay, barring eventual conditions on them but also barring OL cards you could play to remedy that) and that's the only thing that should matter. Monsters are your tools and you need these tools alive as much as possible for them to perform actions. But +3 life? When you have one hero dealing 15 damage a turn how can a +3 life be relevant at all? I mean sure, it has some utility, at best buys you some time, but when you look at Dash and see what it can do for you there is no comparison. Dash wins you games, Secrets of Flesh just messes around with the heroes.

 

I used the respec in the last campaign right before the finale to change classes. I had been a basic 2 punisher, and I sold all of my low level punisher cards and bought warlord cards to replace them- I kept Blood Bargaining and Trading Pains, as they would be useful in the finale, but otherwise it was an opportunity to tailor my deck specifically to the finale- incredibly useful. Playing that quest earlier in the campaign would have been significantly less useful, as I didn't have the large pool of XP to customize.

Yeah, nice to hear that some OLs actually are using this re-spec, that's quite a nice and cool little reward but as always it might pay off sometimes and sometimes not.


Edited by Indalecio, 16 May 2014 - 07:40 AM.


#30 mm26

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:01 AM

About the OL card, are you serious? Far from me to say the card is worse than any others, but are you actually saying it's a better card than Dash? If your heroes leave monsters alive whether it is at 8 or 1 life - it doesn't matter - you still get two actions per mini during your turn. (okay, barring eventual conditions on them but also barring OL cards you could play to remedy that) and that's the only think that should matter. Monsters are your tools and you need these tools alive as much as possible for them to perform actions. But +3 life? When you have heroes dealing 15 damage a turn how can a +3 life be relevant at all? I mean sure, it has some utility, at best buys you some time, but when you look at Dash and see what it can do for you there is no comparison. Dash wins you games, Secrets of Flesh just messes around with the heroes.

I guess it's just possible that you don't know what it does.

 

Secrets of Flesh doesn't heal 1 monster with 1-3 health. It heals all of your monsters 1-3 health. That could add up to 15 health. And crucially, it could be the difference in keeping a key lieutenant or monster alive. Between defense dice, monster abilities, and other tricks, it's extremely unlikely that I'll let heroes do that much damage a turn to a key figure. So healing them up 3 health could be half a turn's output if not more.



#31 mm26

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:06 AM

Take Aurium Plating from Valyndra's plot deck. Give a whole monster group immunity to pierce. That makes the damage that they take from heroes significantly less each turn. So they finally manage to do 4 or 5 damage onto one of them, and then you heal 3? While you also heal some of your smaller monsters which they thought that they were almost done with? And you would rather give 1 monster group 1 extra move action? No. Not unless you have a specific reason that you need to move a specific monster or lieutenant somewhere as a win condition.

 

And even if you do, Dash and Frenzy can only be 4 cards in your deck. You need to populate it with others. Not only is Secrets of the Flesh a really good one to do so with, it also is 0 experience points so you can spend your XP somewhere else.


Edited by mm26, 16 May 2014 - 07:08 AM.


#32 mm26

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:22 AM

There's also a number of times that I'd prefer any variety of OL cards to Frenzy.

 

Bloodrage over Frenzy in many instances. One more attack and get a weak monster back fully healed in somewhere that might be even more useful.

 

Trap cards that pick on heroes weak attributes. If they don't have great might, Web Trap is great. It can cost them most of a whole turn.

 

Reinforce? C'mon.

 

I think you're vastly overrating Dash and Frenzy. They're situationally nice, but so are many other cards which you might want to play as you tailor it to the encounter, monster groups, and hero attributes.



#33 Indalecio

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:26 AM

 

About the OL card, are you serious? Far from me to say the card is worse than any others, but are you actually saying it's a better card than Dash? If your heroes leave monsters alive whether it is at 8 or 1 life - it doesn't matter - you still get two actions per mini during your turn. (okay, barring eventual conditions on them but also barring OL cards you could play to remedy that) and that's the only think that should matter. Monsters are your tools and you need these tools alive as much as possible for them to perform actions. But +3 life? When you have heroes dealing 15 damage a turn how can a +3 life be relevant at all? I mean sure, it has some utility, at best buys you some time, but when you look at Dash and see what it can do for you there is no comparison. Dash wins you games, Secrets of Flesh just messes around with the heroes.

I guess it's just possible that you don't know what it does.

 

Secrets of Flesh doesn't heal 1 monster with 1-3 health. It heals all of your monsters 1-3 health. That could add up to 15 health. And crucially, it could be the difference in keeping a key lieutenant or monster alive. Between defense dice, monster abilities, and other tricks, it's extremely unlikely that I'll let heroes do that much damage a turn to a key figure. So healing them up 3 health could be half a turn's output if not more.

 

Hmm I edited my post prior to seeing yours, feel free to check if you like.

 

No, I know what the card does, I know it's a gain for all monsters. I agree 3 life on a lieutenant is more solid than 3 life on a zombie, I can give you that. Then whether this +3 life will require more actions from the heroes to defeat your lieutenant or not, I mean there are so many factors involved that we cannot say that Secrets of Flesh always lives up to whatever expectations you may have of this card. If you have played it and think high of it, by any means. I'm not here to say people's favorite toys are crap and how wrong you are, to each his own metagame and experience. From MY perspective though based on different situations when I look at some monsters being severely injured, I don't think I would have wanted to draw this card ever. I would have wanted to draw and play Blood Rage instead. Like I said, every monster to me has an unprinted "number of actions required to defeat this monster" value on the card. If your +3 (again, taking the highest possible result) means a great deal with regards to this value then sure, but then it needs to be put into perspective of the damage output of your heroes. Maybe it is more useful if your heroes are not completely geared up. Mine are and +3 is a nothing.

 

 

Take Aurium Plating from Valyndra's plot deck. Give a whole monster group immunity to pierce. That makes the damage that they take from heroes significantly less each turn. So they finally manage to do 4 or 5 damage onto one of them, and then you heal 3? While you also heal some of your smaller monsters which they thought that they were almost done with? And you would rather give 1 monster group 1 extra move action? No. Not unless you have a specific reason that you need to move a specific monster or lieutenant somewhere as a win condition.

 

And even if you do, Dash and Frenzy can only be 4 cards in your deck. You need to populate it with others. Not only is Secrets of the Flesh a really good one to do so with, it also is 0 experience points so you can spend your XP somewhere else.

About the first part, I mean sure there will be situations where this card will be more effective. But you need a specific reason to keep these monsters alive and heroes need a specific reason to want to kill these monsters (rather than say meet the quest objectives). Dash is useful even outside of the race quests - which are a vast majority of the quests mind you - as you can use it to put a monster into range. Even better, move a monster into range, attack, perform action ability.

 

About the second point, well yeah you need 11 other cards in your deck and maybe you will put SoF in there if you think the card deserves it, I'm fine with it. 



#34 Indalecio

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:31 AM

There's also a number of times that I'd prefer any variety of OL cards to Frenzy.

 

Bloodrage over Frenzy in many instances. One more attack and get a weak monster back fully healed in somewhere that might be even more useful.

 

Trap cards that pick on heroes weak attributes. If they don't have great might, Web Trap is great. It can cost them most of a whole turn.

 

Reinforce? C'mon.

 

I think you're vastly overrating Dash and Frenzy. They're situationally nice, but so are many other cards which you might want to play as you tailor it to the encounter, monster groups, and hero attributes.

Both cards in your deck, period. Blood Rage still requires a target you're willing to sacrifice. If your heroes know you play this card they will have more incentive to take out monsters completely instead of keeping something with low life since that's a free ticket for Blood Rage pwnage. I agree that Blood Rage is great to get rid of injured monsters you can respawn afterwards, especially master monsters or even Zachareth in the interlude missions.

 

Trap cards are great. Anyting that can waste the heroes' actions.

 

I just purchased Reinforce for the first time in one of our campaigns and have zero experience of the card, so I'll take your word on this one.

 

About the last sentence in your post, most quests are race quests or "take position" quests. I don't see a quest where you wouldn't be able to use Dash to great effect. At worst, keep it for the next encounter. I cannot remember how many encounters I have won thanks to Dash. Feels like cheap wins to my heroes for sure. Then yeah card is "less cool", "basic", "straight forward" (as opposed to convoluted effects that seem uber powerful although they´re not). Frenzy, I don't know, what do you do with your monsters aside from running if you're not attacking? You really want to make sure you connect an attack with condition on top of it? Frenzy! I mean, I don't know in which quests these two cards would lose a % of their relevance. Other OLs are welcome to comment. You disagree, fine, but do you actually side them out or do you keep the original set in your deck?


Edited by Indalecio, 16 May 2014 - 07:38 AM.


#35 BentoSan

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 12:41 PM

Secrets of the flesh definitely is a game winner, along with the universal card that lets you roll 2 red dice and heal a monster for that many hp - it slows the heroes down for sure. In the last encounter when its a race to kill each other it can also let you live a little bit longer which is good. Secrets of the flesh is also useful when there is a runemaster or some other aoe class thats  smacking a bunch of monsters at once - its not something i have obtained personally but i have had it played against me.

 

Frenzy and dash are both awesome cards too. I try to reserve Frenzy for monsters that can hit more than 1 hero at once to gain maximum effect from it.

 

We seem to be straying from the original topic however.



#36 griton

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 03:35 PM

Drawing 1-2 great piece of equipment out of 5 cards every turn that the heroes can afford to buy is not game changing? Drawing the freaking search card allowing you to draw a random item in the shop deck is no big deal? Sounds liike you're playing in magical Christmas land and Santa is the OL. 

Sounds like you're basing a lot of assumption on everyone playing a 4-hero campaign. Both of these are far less likely to happen as you reduce the number of heroes. (Fewer choices / usable gear to spend gold on, which delays buying equipment, which reduces chances of winning further, and fewer search tokens = fewer chances at Treasure Chest)

 

a 66% increase of act 2 shop item cards in combination with a 36% increase in gold is HUGE

The extra shop choices are probably one of the biggest benefits, especially to parties with fewer heroes in them.

 

 

Reinforce? C'mon.

I just purchased Reinforce for the first time in one of our campaigns and have zero experience of the card, so I'll take your word on this one.

Keep in mind that Reinforce has been nerfed in the Errata and not everyone uses the new version, so YMMV.



#37 Indalecio

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 03:37 AM

 

Drawing 1-2 great piece of equipment out of 5 cards every turn that the heroes can afford to buy is not game changing? Drawing the freaking search card allowing you to draw a random item in the shop deck is no big deal? Sounds liike you're playing in magical Christmas land and Santa is the OL. 

Sounds like you're basing a lot of assumption on everyone playing a 4-hero campaign. Both of these are far less likely to happen as you reduce the number of heroes. (Fewer choices / usable gear to spend gold on, which delays buying equipment, which reduces chances of winning further, and fewer search tokens = fewer chances at Treasure Chest)

 

Yeah, but it's just hard to talk about balance considering a variable number of heroes in general, although many mechanisms do remain linear in this game so it's probably not as much of an impact as you think it is. I mean, statistically speaking you obviously don't get the same odds for obtaining cool gear off the shop deck the fewer heroes you have, however the % of these odds your heroes are losing by being fewer is somehow compensated by the OL getting access to less resources as well (monsters and OL cards, even threat tokens). It can go either way, but again, between getting a good equipment from the shop deck and getting one more OL card for the next encounter, the heroes have everything to gain. So you are correct Griton when you say that it changes things, but I will claim that the result remains the same (more or less, I guess you can always dispute that, but I'm not going to split hairs).

 

Oh and I think everybody should be playing this game with 4 heroes to get the best experience. 4-heroes seem the commonly agreed standard for playing the game, so I'm not going to preface every assumption I make with the number of heroes considered unless it's relevant for the said assumption. That's because I'm lazy, lol.

 

Back on topic (apologies to the OP) I would actually try and not play the rumor quest mechanism especially if you intend to run the mini-campaigns anyway. The only solution I see is heavy house ruling. I don't think you can get away with a minor change on this one, but we saw some people here who reckon +1XP to the OL is the only required change. I disagree but if people can test this and say it's good as it is then why not. I'm much more enclined to buff the OL a fair bit on a global level, and then (only then) play rumor quests with some interesting rewards. What I think eventually would be the solution is a Descent 3.0 with even capabilities between heroes and OL. I know exactly what mechanisms I would put in there, but it's too much of a stretch to even suggest as a house rule.


Edited by Indalecio, 20 May 2014 - 03:39 AM.


#38 Necrohexel

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:03 PM

I've been away from the forums a bit and wow... this thread is still alive :D

 

We've actually house ruled the crap out of the rumors. Here's what we're doing:

 

- Quests are decided randomly throughout the campaign (to prevent snowballing)

 

- At the start of the campaign 3 rumor quests are added to the quests that can randomly be played (so Campaign Act I quests + those 3 rumors). The OL is given 3 rumor event cards into his hand. If they state a rumor card has to be played then another rumor quest is added to the available quests pool. No threat is gained from played rumors this way. This is also a way to provide the OL with a bit more power, having those 3 events in his hand right away.

 

- We then draw a random quest from the pool. Can't play two rumors in a row.

 

- Regular campaign quests are played with the standard ruling. 

 

- Rumor quests provide the heroes with the full gold at the end. The OL gets 1 threat token at the start of every hero turn, ignoring the start of the game turn. We've capped threat gained this way up to 10. He still gains threat through other normal means.

 

We're still at the start of our campaign so I can't really provide proper feedback to these rulings. We've only done the Intro and a Rumor right after that so far. I'll come back and provide feedback once our campaign is finished. This ruling requires an Agent deck tho, not sure how I would do it if threat wasn't an available resource. 


Edited by Necrohexel, 24 May 2014 - 02:04 PM.


#39 sigmazero13

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 09:23 PM

1 threat per turn seems excessive!  You could buy most of the Plot cards in one go, even if you capped it at 10 + normal means.



#40 sigmazero13

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 09:24 PM

1 threat per turn seems excessive!  You could buy most of the Plot cards in one go, even if you capped it at 10 + normal means.






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