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So... Reconciling some plot holes. ***SPOILERS***


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#1 TheBoulder

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 05:24 PM

Hey fellow GMs (and any players that have ideas), I've read over the beginner adventure and I like it fine, but I am having some difficulties reconciling certain issues...

First, the amount of people in the base. The PCs take out several guards. Approximately 8 guards and 6 stormies depending on party size, etc. What about everyone else? I have difficulty believing they would just surrender... So, how to handle them?

Also, when they get into the comm room, it seems they are left with the choice of executing all the officers or just running off after the LT and leaving them to their devices.

Also, if they should take prisoners, it seems unlikely they will be able to take them off planet before the Moff attacks...

I'm sure I will encounter other issues, but I'd appreciate ideas on how to handle these ones.

Many thanks!

#2 Lathrop

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:33 PM

Shadowpoint says players can push off the Moff attacking for a time through various means of deception. So in terms of handling the living Imperials that were captured after the base capture, players might be able to call in Rebels to pick up the prisoners.

 

If they don't think to tie them up or kill them? A lot trickier. Especially since there's got to be a solid number of them (I think the beginner game says somewhere that the max capacity of the base is 30). Reasonably, I only see it feasible to let them all try and escape. Maybe have a number of them and whatever other living support staff (chefs, mechanics, pilots) trying to get the Lambda to work when the players end up catching them when they return. Maybe let the players catch the rest trying to escape to the capital city on some of the speeders (or maybe on foot if something happened to the other speeders), and they give up once the first shot is fired their way.


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#3 ScooterinAB

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 08:36 PM

The only two really problematic plot holes I found are the escape tunnel and the cameras viewable from the control centre. While the tunnel is a good way for Sarev to escape and start a chase, it's a giant middle finger to the party. Literally everything they have done up to this point is rendered meaningless, because this guy is just going to escape through the tunnel, not the shuttle. I'd maybe rewrite this to have him throw a smoke grenade and run or maybe have not been in the room in the first place. It's still scripted, but at least disabling the shuttle was effective and actually cut off an escape route.

 

The end of the adventure mentions that the bases has cameras in every room that feed into the control centre. This creates a huge problem because the party's cover is almost immediately blown. How on earth does the base not go on alert the second a blaster fight and explosions break out in the garage? I'm not sure what to do about this, but I want to think that Sarev would have basically seen the party coming from orbit and got out of there long before they close in on the control centre.

 

Not really a plot hole, but taking an AT-ST as opposed to a speeder seems pretty stupid, given how much slower and less maneuverable it is. But maybe Sarev wasn't thinking clearly.

 

As for the other personnel, Lathrop raises an interesting point. Perhaps a bunch of the staff cheese it on speeder bikes, but get lost in the jungle in their haste to escape. This means the party must track down the escapees as another task needed to secure the base (as well as keeping a few speeders out of their hands, since they perhaps wiped out and damaged the bikes in their escape). This could maybe be run as a mini encounter in the followup adventure.

 

I think the key here is to understand that taking Whisper Base doesn't wrap everything up in a neat little bow. There is a lot of work the Rebels need to do in order to secure it and tie up loose ends. Taking the base was just the first part. There has been some talk that this adventure provides a better jumping off point than Escape from Mos Shuuta. Perhaps this (the various tasks and future adventures the party needs to complete before they can stop watching their backs) is what those people mean. So yeah, there are a ton of loose ends, but perhaps that's the point.



#4 Fiddleback

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 01:00 AM

Not really a plot hole, but I'll toss it in here anyway.

 

Has anyone else noticed that the description of the garage when the PCs arrive and the map of the garage are different?  Specifically, the single, large, metal door is, according to the description, at the back of the garage and leads deeper into the base, whereas the map shows two different walkways/steps into the hallway that don't seem particularly large?

 

I suppose I could be interpreting it wrong, and it isn't a huge deal, except that it matters a bit when the PCs decide how much of the base they need to go through to get to the shuttle. Otherwise, pretty easy to hand wave.


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#5 MrHotter

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:31 AM

Thanks for making this post.

 

I don't have my box yet, but I was wondering what others have done to 'fix' the story for their game.

 

I ran the EotE BB game as the start of my family campaign rather than as an introduction to the rules. I made some changes to the adventure so it would make more narrative sense for my game.  I plan on doing the same thing with the AoR BB game. I'm not going to use the pre-gens, and I'm using the characters we had from the EotE game. It will be their first 'real' mission for the Rebels.

 

Since my family game has kids playing I've been happy to just use the Beginner Box rules and adventures. Of course my daughter is pressing me to add unicorns into the game, so we'll see how that goes.


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#6 usgrandprix

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:17 AM

Has anyone else noticed that the description of the garage when the PCs arrive and the map of the garage are different?  Specifically, the single, large, metal door is, according to the description, at the back of the garage and leads deeper into the base, whereas the map shows two different walkways/steps into the hallway that don't seem particularly large?

 

Yeah that was driving me crazy. I think something went wrong between the map and the writing. There were a few other inconsistencies like the number of officer beds.

 

The end of the adventure mentions there are 30 stationed on Whisper base. It also mentions how to get rid of prisoners, which is not a hand wave.

 

One thing I thought was odd is that it's supposed to be a base to spy on an Imperial admiral. You'd think that the PCs would want to take advantage of that capability, but there's no mention of how the Moff does it. No spies, electronic surveillance, etc. Nothing. Just a mention of a person that shows up with supplies every two weeks. I was hoping for more in this department. If they have a tap to their communications then the PCs can use this. If it's a base for a field operative then that operative will be checking back in.

 

I like the adventure a lot but I needed less detail on Toor and more on how the base works for spying, surveillance, and internal security. It's a good adventure if you take a bit of time to fill in some details.


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#7 kaosoe

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:14 AM

One thing I thought was odd is that it's supposed to be a base to spy on an Imperial admiral. You'd think that the PCs would want to take advantage of that capability, but there's no mention of how the Moff does it. No spies, electronic surveillance, etc. Nothing. Just a mention of a person that shows up with supplies every two weeks. I was hoping for more in this department. If they have a tap to their communications then the PCs can use this. If it's a base for a field operative then that operative will be checking back in

 

If I was to guess. I would say the Moff is using the Signal Intelligence Array to spy on the Admiral. It's a significant part of the followup adventure.


Edited by kaosoe, 06 May 2014 - 03:50 PM.

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#8 usgrandprix

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:51 PM

Thanks. Yeah I just started reading the follow up and am glad to see that part.



#9 angelicdoctor

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:55 PM

Cameras installed everywhere.  I can see how this presents a big problem for the players to solve.  I'd have to include that item in the mission briefing and let the players devise a plan to overcome this logical obstacle.  Also, I would imagine as well that when blaster fire starts being traded, that the base would go on lockdown at that moment.  Yet another big problem for our would-be heroes.


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#10 Agatheron

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:04 PM

One way around the base staffing issue is that perhaps a chunk of the base personnel are off site for whatever reason, which is why the PCs strike when they do. Perhaps another group is in process of intercepting incapacitating these reinforcements while the players are tasked to take the base. Makes it more plausible for a team of 2-6 to pull this off. In addition, with Operation Shadowpoint, I'd say once the base is secure, more Alliance staff and troops are assigned, giving the players the option of operating out of this base, or being a mobile team with a shuttle.
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#11 usgrandprix

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:09 AM

One way around the base staffing issue is that perhaps a chunk of the base personnel are off site for whatever reason, which is why the PCs strike when they do. Perhaps another group is in process of intercepting incapacitating these reinforcements while the players are tasked to take the base. Makes it more plausible for a team of 2-6 to pull this off. In addition, with Operation Shadowpoint, I'd say once the base is secure, more Alliance staff and troops are assigned, giving the players the option of operating out of this base, or being a mobile team with a shuttle.

 

Great suggestion. Thanks. We played last night and I mentioned there was a diversionary op that pulled some of the garrison out of the base. It lent a countdown element too since they had to complete their mission before the Imperial detail returned from investigating the distraction in the jungle.

 

They actually sliced the cameras and put them on a loop early on. They thought of that on their own.

 

They had the diplomat so they did a lot of bluffing with the uniforms as a tech crew there to fix the comm outage. She really played up disdaining having to work with the Mon Cal tech.

 

They won over Toor and sent him out on a speeder bike and then "reported" it as an escaping rebel infiltrator so that got a few more scout troopers out of the base for the control center takeover. Those are the ones that showed up later in the chase.

 

They pacified the skeleton base, eliminated Sarev in the chase, and hoped in the AT-STs for a rude welcome home for the troopers that were returning from the distraction,  Divide and conquer.

 

It was a fun adventure and the PCs played it smart.


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#12 copperbell

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:45 AM

First off has anyone wondered where the sick bay is?

 

I'm assuming the one near the training facility but could easily be another exercise room.

 

Secondly has anyone thought to turn the barracks into bunk beds?

 

So instead of 24 you have 48 and why was the front entrance wide open?

 

There's another thread which sounded like a great way to start this game by having the PCs using the stormtrooper armours of some scout troopers and using the speeder bikes to enter unnoticed cutting the comm line which has the added effect of disabling the interior camera feeds.

 

So those 4 guards are sent believing they have a fault in the garage giving the PCs a means of pulling off that ambush but not being immediately rumbled.. anyone think that's doable?



#13 Fiddleback

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:49 AM

How does Sarev get to the  Comm Station?  How? HOW?

 

Probably some bridge or something obscured by the exploded view of the Com Station. Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

Except don't look at the map in the bonus adventure.

 

:)


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#14 copperbell

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:57 AM

I was wondering about having the shuttle Launchpad descend out of sight from above ground after all its supposed to be a secret installation and a landing pad with a lambda shuttle kind of screams the opposite doesn't it?

 

As for Sarev, yes I was wondering about that... maybe use that Ryloth energy bridge from the Clone Wars so we have him tramp across pursued by the PCs and he shoots the controls on the other side to either trap them half way across the chasm/river or on the other side...

 

Huh I was thinking about running this game slightly differently and have the PCs take the comm station out first and then head for the base so you have the money shot of Sarev thinking himself free and clear and the PC demolition expert blows up the comm tower or simply have npc rebels waiting to arrest him once he climbs out of that AT-ST totally unaware the rebels are already there...

 

No that steals the players thunder but why that map with ship wreckage that has nothing to do with the beginner game itself?!

 

Still the energy bridge would be an interesting addition especially if your players have watched the Clone Wars animated series especially the Ryloth arc.

 

Spoiler

 

Huh missed the hunting lodge... thought it would have been interesting to have that energy bridge be down there I guess straight across the river is the only option... maybe a constructed bridge and Sarev collapses it as part of his escape attempt?


Edited by copperbell, 26 May 2014 - 11:17 AM.


#15 MrHotter

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:15 PM

For mine I'm saying that interference from the moon is going to cause issues with the bases com system and internal cameras. 

 

I'm also wondering why they just walk into a garage full of speeders and AT-ST without any issues. I may say they are rushing in as the garage door closes after they were opened for a patrol that was leaving. 

 

I know this is mostly an introductory to the rules but I want it to make more sense. I'm also still trying to figure out what all the rooms are on the map. 



#16 awayputurwpn

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 12:06 AM

How do the PCs approach Whisper Base so easily in the Beginner adventure, when afterwards (during Operation Shadowpoint) they automatically receive detailed proximity alerts from the base's security system whenever anyone approaches the place from the jungle?

#17 NGnear

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 04:18 AM

Hey all, just registered so apologies for missing any forum etiquette/rules...

 

I've not yet played the beginner's game, but I have spent the past few days running through the adventure book and making a few tweaks, some of which have already been pointed out here.  I'll not be playing for a couple more weeks, so if anyone has improvements they'd like to suggest, feel free. I should also point out I'm planning on running a group of 5 PCs, so the changes tend towards increased difficulty.

 

I think a few (cameras, external sensors/detectors, short staffing [but see below]) can be explained by making the base brand new and not yet fully operational, so these systems are not yet on line/not fully staffed yet. 

 

- Garage Door - is there actually a door or is this a "car port"?  If so, this is the jungle and the planet is famed for it's agressive wildlife, wouldn't you put a very good door on the garage to keep them out?

I've added a pre-encounter 1 item: team must find the comm line outside the base and cut it (AVG perception check), and then open the door and slip inside (AVG Computer check).  Bonus on hiding if they remember to close the door after they get inside.

 

That said, I just read the post by Copperbell above with the idea of ambushing a group of scout trooopers, stealing their armor and bikes and getting in to the garage that way - you run a mini-combat encounter but you're effectively switching around the "order" that the beginner's game has for introducing concepts to new players - that might be an idea better suited to players with some experience of the FFG system (ie existing EotE players switching to AoR).

 

Most of the rest of the first half up to the interlude doesn't require significant modifications beyond GM comments about how eerily quiet the base seems to be.

 

From post shuttle-disabling onwards, the biggest question is whether my group goes straight for the control room or tries to secure the rooms on their way to keep their backs clear.  Here are the changes/further detail I've got:

 

- Officer's Quarters (2 rooms): 1 is empty, this is Sarev's quarters.  Upgraded him to Captain.  Other room has Lt sat behind desk, will surrender pretty quickly.  Datapad has base staffing and schedule (to help PCs predict where personnel will be), but this information is also in main computer and easy to find if the PCs start slicing earlier.  Base staffing is closer to 60 (Sarev + 2 Lts, 2 squads Stormtroopers (12), 1 Sqd Stormtrooper Scouts (6), 3 Sqds Army Troopers (18), 4 Base support engineers, 16 Comm/Intel techs).  Staff who aren't on duty are either asleep in the Barracks (yes, assumed bunks in those rooms - actually assumed triple-layer bunks like on navy ships), on firing range or in rec room.

 

- Barracks - Half of off-duty personnel are asleep here, unarmed, and will surrender easily if the PCs are stealthy (EASY coercion check).  Else they are awake and armed with knives

 

- Comm Room - 3 Comm techs, light blaster pistols, HARD check to coerce into surrender

 

- Armoury - As written, 3 Stormtroopers guarding unless PCs have been very sneaky up to this point, in which case a single stromtrooper guard.

 

- Training Facility has remaining off duty troopers, half armed on firing range, half unarmed in the gym, Rec Room has remaining off duty techs/engineering staff, unarmed

 

- Control Room has the rest of the staff (Sarev, Lt, 9 Comms/Intel Techs, Support engineer/tech)

 

 

The biggest outstanding problem I can see is with the pursuit - firstly, the PCs are in the control room, full of NPC imperials (granted I've made this worse by assuming a large control room contingent) - I'd rather they didn't wipe out the entire lot before persuing Sarev (they are supposed to be the good guys, after all), but will they have time to shepherd the imperials to the barracks and lock them in one of the rooms before persuing?  Other than leaving one of the PCs here to guard them (or Toor, if they have brought him this far, which I doubt) or tying each one up one by one, can anyone think of other solutions I can nudge them towards?

 

I'd also very much like one of my players to suggest taking the shuttle after him, which will shorten the chase when they blow the AT-ST's legs off... :)

 

If they don't, I figure that Sarev took the AT-ST over a speeder bike as he a) wanted firepower over speed and/or b) can't ride a speeder bike (he lets the Stormtrooper drive the AT-ST).  He crosses the river by fording it in the AT-ST (skill check if the PCs try to follow in their AT-ST, otherwise they fly over the top on speeder bikes).

 

As I said, any comments, questions or suggestions would be most welcome.



#18 awayputurwpn

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 01:21 PM

Hey all, just registered so apologies for missing any forum etiquette/rules...

The FPG are around somewhere...they basically say stuff like, "get along with people, don't be a jerk." Trolls/flamers/spammers tend to get booted :)
 

I think a few (cameras, external sensors/detectors, short staffing [but see below]) can be explained by making the base brand new and not yet fully operational, so these systems are not yet on line/not fully staffed yet.

This is problematic, since the feel I get from the follow-on adventure is that this base has existed for some time and already faces regular attacks from Beast Riders, regular visits from Moff Dardano's agent (every 2 weeks), and has an already-established indentured work crew from a nearby village.

Better IMO to just narrate one of your PCs doing something to create a video loop on the security cams in order to temporarily disable them, as well as the base's proximity alarms.
 

- Garage Door - is there actually a door or is this a "car port"?  If so, this is the jungle and the planet is famed for it's agressive wildlife, wouldn't you put a very good door on the garage to keep them out?
I've added a pre-encounter 1 item: team must find the comm line outside the base and cut it (AVG perception check), and then open the door and slip inside (AVG Computer check).  Bonus on hiding if they remember to close the door after they get inside.

Be prepared to deal with failure in this instance, make sure they can still continue the infiltration. Failed check might mean they have to storm the base or find an alternate route in.
 

- Officer's Quarters (2 rooms): 1 is empty, this is Sarev's quarters.  Upgraded him to Captain.  Other room has Lt sat behind desk, will surrender pretty quickly.  Datapad has base staffing and schedule (to help PCs predict where personnel will be), but this information is also in main computer and easy to find if the PCs start slicing earlier.  Base staffing is closer to 60 (Sarev + 2 Lts, 2 squads Stormtroopers (12), 1 Sqd Stormtrooper Scouts (6), 3 Sqds Army Troopers (18), 4 Base support engineers, 16 Comm/Intel techs).  Staff who aren't on duty are either asleep in the Barracks (yes, assumed bunks in those rooms - actually assumed triple-layer bunks like on navy ships), on firing range or in rec room.

Yikes!! 60 is a lot. I'd rather save those kind of numbers (5 against 60) for the end of Operation: Shadowpoint, when you have a few more allies. The other ideas are very cool, though.
 

- Barracks - Half of off-duty personnel are asleep here, unarmed, and will surrender easily if the PCs are stealthy (EASY coercion check).  Else they are awake and armed with knives
 
- Comm Room - 3 Comm techs, light blaster pistols, HARD check to coerce into surrender
 
- Armoury - As written, 3 Stormtroopers guarding unless PCs have been very sneaky up to this point, in which case a single stromtrooper guard.
 
- Training Facility has remaining off duty troopers, half armed on firing range, half unarmed in the gym, Rec Room has remaining off duty techs/engineering staff, unarmed
 
- Control Room has the rest of the staff (Sarev, Lt, 9 Comms/Intel Techs, Support engineer/tech)

Nice ideas here. Just be sure not to rely too much on dice rolls. If you had a group of 3 Comm techs and 5 armed soldiers rushed in and ordered a surrender, I hardly think the techs would dare to put up a fight. Stormtroopers are different, of course.
 

The biggest outstanding problem I can see is with the pursuit - firstly, the PCs are in the control room, full of NPC imperials (granted I've made this worse by assuming a large control room contingent) - I'd rather they didn't wipe out the entire lot before persuing Sarev (they are supposed to be the good guys, after all), but will they have time to shepherd the imperials to the barracks and lock them in one of the rooms before persuing?  Other than leaving one of the PCs here to guard them (or Toor, if they have brought him this far, which I doubt) or tying each one up one by one, can anyone think of other solutions I can nudge them towards?

Narrate that they get tied up BEFORE Sarev's escape is noticed. Then proceed as normal with the adventure.
 

I'd also very much like one of my players to suggest taking the shuttle after him, which will shorten the chase when they blow the AT-ST's legs off... :)

Lol, nice. Be hard to do if they disabled it, though.

I figure that Sarev took the AT-ST over a speeder bike as he a) wanted firepower over speed and/or b) can't ride a speeder bike (he lets the Stormtrooper drive the AT-ST).  He crosses the river by fording it in the AT-ST (skill check if the PCs try to follow in their AT-ST, otherwise they fly over the top on speeder bikes).

Yeah! Fording the river, never thought of that. And of course speeder bikes can just fly over the water. *smacks head*

#19 NGnear

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:45 PM

The FPG are around somewhere...they basically say stuff like, "get along with people, don't be a jerk." Trolls/flamers/spammers tend to get booted :)

 

Ah, Wheaton's Law.  Works for me.  :)

 

This is problematic, since the feel I get from the follow-on adventure is that this base has existed for some time and already faces regular attacks from Beast Riders, regular visits from Moff Dardano's agent (every 2 weeks), and has an already-established indentured work crew from a nearby village.

 

Ah, that's a good point.

 

Better IMO to just narrate one of your PCs doing something to create a video loop on the security cams in order to temporarily disable them, as well as the base's proximity alarms.

 

That's one option.   Need to think on this one a little more, I can't say I think much of a proximity alarm system that lets you get close enough to slice the computer network that it's attached to without triggering.

 

Be prepared to deal with failure in this instance, make sure they can still continue the infiltration. Failed check might mean they have to storm the base or find an alternate route in.

 

Again, an excellent point.  Need to think up emergency alternatives if I continue with the planned dice roll approach.

 

Yikes!! 60 is a lot. I'd rather save those kind of numbers (5 against 60) for the end of Operation: Shadowpoint, when you have a few more allies. The other ideas are very cool, though.

 

When I first sat down and started calculating, I thought the same, but then I started adding up the staff already mandated by the adventure itself, bearing in mind a party size of 5:

- 5 Army Troopers in the Garage

- 5 Army Troopers guarding the door to the Launch Pad

- 2 Army Troopers guarding the pad itself.

- 6 Stormtroopers protecting the Control Room

- 3 Stormtroopers protecting the Armoury

- 4 Stormtrooper scouts (?) on speeder bikes

- 1 Stormtrooper driving Sarev's AT-ST (I made this a Scout)

 

Which is 26 soldiers, and that's without the potential troopers on the firing range (book suggests 3, I think) and asleep.  The others I've added are the comm/intel techs and engineers (20) who should be lightly armed and surrender quickly (comm room [see below], off duty or in the control room and therefore have a scripted surrender), 2 Lieutenants (1 in officer's quarters, 1 in control, both surrender quickly), the other troopers (3 stormtroopers, 3 army troopers) are off-duty and unarmed, and should be easy-ish pickings (famous last words of any GM/DM... :) )

 

On top of this, I figure a bit of door-lock slicing will enable them to close off areas of the base and imprison any free-roaming imperials as well.

 

Nice ideas here. Just be sure not to rely too much on dice rolls. If you had a group of 3 Comm techs and 5 armed soldiers rushed in and ordered a surrender, I hardly think the techs would dare to put up a fight. Stormtroopers are different, of course.

 

Yeah, I might downgrade the difficulty for the Comm room.  Knowing my players (we play D&D 4e together), they'll probably shoot one of the techs in the face for twitching as they burst in anyway... :-)

 

Narrate that they get tied up BEFORE Sarev's escape is noticed. Then proceed as normal with the adventure.

 

D'oh.  Of course.  That even fits with giving Sarev enough time to crawl along the tunnel to the garage while the PCs hurriedly tie up the techs and realise Sarev isn't among them.

 

Lol, nice. Be hard to do if they disabled it, though.

 

True.  Only works if they choose the "lock" approach to disabling the shuttle.  If they wreck it the idea is a no-go.  I'll try to point out that an off-the-books Lambda-class shuttle is a valuable asset to everyone.  Hopefully they'll get the hint (but there's no guarantee, see my comment above... :) )

 

Yeah! Fording the river, never thought of that. And of course speeder bikes can just fly over the water. *smacks head*

 

Don't worry, I wondered about the lack of a bridge on the map for a while before I settled on the fording idea... :)

 

Thanks for the feedback, I'll feed it in to my prep work.



#20 Fiddleback

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:34 PM

Good stuff. 

 

I toyed with the idea of fording the river, but, after looking at the map and the terrain, decided that the banks of the river were too steep and narrow for an AT-ST to maneuver. No reason you CAN'T do it though, whatever works for you guys.


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