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Transition from Interlude to Act 2


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#21 Zaltyre

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:13 PM

Some good followup questions would probably be:

 

Is the regular shopping phase skipped / is this in its place, or does it occur during a different part of the campaign phase? Are heroes allowed to sell back item cards during it?

 

Basically, if it's not a regular shopping phase, what other differences might there be? Will future cards possibly affect it?

griton, I submitted a similar question last week, just waiting on a reply- essentially, is the act two transition stuff followed by a "normal" campaign phase sans shopping, or does the interlude have a "special" campaign phase that is normal in all respects except the shopping step is replaced by the transition to act 2? I will post the question/reply when I receive it- the main difference in the two interpretations is whether or not the heroes have the gold from the interlude to spend in the act 1 shop. Every game of Descent I've participated in used the second method (act two transition replaces the normal shopping step.)



#22 Bagpus

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:48 PM

Summing up official ruling and in-thread discussion I suggest the following run down.
 
Interlude is lost or won->
- heroes can sell starting items and sell/buy any Act I items (kind of different interlude 'sale, sale, sale' not-really-shopping-phase apart from campaign phase).
- campaign phase kicks in and you can have another shopping phase (if you like) but as Act II items are off limits you would deal act I items... 
 
Pretty straightforward but unfortunately not descently (nice pun, isn't it?) explained in the Rules.


Love the pun! I think all it really needed is something to the effect of "replace standard shopping step with a special shopping step where heroes have a chance to view and buy all remaining act 1 shop cards. Cards that effect the standard shopping step do not effect this special shopping step."
Because the transition from Interlude to Act 2 is a real "journey in the dark" without It! :-)
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#23 Tasressurect

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 01:46 AM

After the Interlude of the Act 1, the Heroes may view all Act 1 Shop cards and purchase any of them which they desire. They may not, peak at the Act 2 Shop cards during any shopping phase of the campaign until after the first Act 2 quest is completed, and the shopping phase has begun following that.

 

By all means, no one is to dictate how you or your party plays the game, feel free to bend or forge the rules to your parties' preference.



#24 griton

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:11 AM

- heroes can sell starting items and sell/buy any Act I items (kind of different interlude 'sale, sale, sale' not-really-shopping-phase apart from campaign phase).

- campaign phase kicks in and you can have another shopping phase (if you like) but as Act II items are off limits you would deal act I items... 

So in this case, the collection of gold / rewards from the interlude happens after the "Select from all the items" and before a normal shopping phase that occurs where you only show a few items. The problem is that according to RAW, as soon as they purchase from "any remaining Act I cards", the rest are returned to the game box, making that normal shopping phase have nothing to select from.

 

 

After the Interlude of the Act 1, the Heroes may view all Act 1 Shop cards and purchase any of them which they desire. They may not, peak at the Act 2 Shop cards during any shopping phase of the campaign until after the first Act 2 quest is completed, and the shopping phase has begun following that.

 

By all means, no one is to dictate how you or your party plays the game, feel free to bend or forge the rules to your parties' preference.

The point is that everyone kind of assumes that this replaces the normal shopping phase in the Campaign phase, which makes a certain amount of sense because of its elegance, but that's not how the Rules actually read. If the rules section on p. 22 under "Act II" happens immediately after completing the quest, before the campaign phase kicks in, and Act II cards aren't available until after an Act II quest, then the Shopping step of that campaign phase is pointless.

 

Note that under "The Campaign Phase", at the very top of p. 20 of the rules, it says

After each quest of a campaign, there is a Campaign phase... It is important to note that ... the Campaign phase does not take place until the entire quest is finished. During the Campaign phase, ... the heroes may visit the shop in Arhynn to purchase new equipment."

And under Act II on p. 22 it says

Immediately after completing the Interlude, follow these steps:

  1. [Return Act I Monster/Lieutenant cards, replace with Act II cards] 
  2. ... Deal out all remaining Act I Shop Item cards faceup. The hero players may purchase any number of Act I Shop Item cards they are able to afford.
  3. [Return unpurchased Act I Shop cards, replace with Act II cards]

 

So according to RAW (not necessarily according to what everyone thinks makes sense), and until at least a semi-official clarification / errata:

You don't get XP, Gold, or ANY rewards until Steps 1 and 3 of the Campaign Phase. Since the Post-Interlude stuff is self contained and says "Immediately after the quest" and the Campaign phase is also self contained and "after the quest", it implies one of two things:

  1. Post-Interlude is before Campaign Phase. Hero players don't get to use Interlude rewards when purchasing from all remaining Act I shop cards because they haven't reached the step of the Campaign phase where they get rewards, then Step 5 (Shopping) of the Campaign phase is pointless because all Act I cards have been returned to the box.
  2. Post-Interlude is after the Campaign Phase. Hero players get rewards from Interlude, perform a normal shopping phase (which is absolutely pointless because they are going to have the opportunity to buy from all the cards instead of a limited number of them, the first Act II quest is set up (heroes and monsters are already on the board), Travel happens (which might affect Hero gold). THEN the Act I Monster and Lieutenant cards are replaced (which technically happens after the monster cards have already been placed near the board during quest setup, etc.), THEN the heroes get to purchase from any remaining Act I cards, etc.

To many people, #2 really doesn't seem to make much sense, and #1 only makes a little more sense. Which is why everyone seems to think that what should really be happening is something that isn't actually in the Rules As Written, which is why we are trying to get an official response from FFG as to their intent.

 

Personally, I feel that the Post-Interlude stuff should say "Replace the Shopping step of the Campaign phase that follows the Interlude with these steps:" instead of "Immediately after completing the Interlude, follow these steps:", but if I was to follow RAW, that's not what is happening.


Edited by griton, 12 May 2014 - 10:15 AM.


#25 Bagpus

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:46 AM

Totally agree with your resolution to this. I just wish there was an official resolution.
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#26 Zaltyre

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:06 PM

I have an official answer from FFG:

 

Rule Question:
What are the order of steps after the interlude? It's been clarified that the heroes don't shop Act 2 items yet, but the exact sequence is a bit unclear. Two options that seem likely to me are:
-Transition to Act 2 (p22 of rules) followed by a normal campaign phase sans shop step.
-Perform a "normal" campaign phase, but "transition to act 2" during the shopping step.
Thank you!
ANSWER
After the Interlude, the following should happen.
  • The players receive their gold from the Search cards and rewards from the interlude.
  • Follow the three steps under “Act II” on page 22 of the rulebook. During step 2, the heroes can purchase any cards they want from the Act I Shop deck. 
  • Then, continue the campaign step. The heroes have already received their gold and shopped, so you can skip step 1, 3, and 5. 
 
Sorry about the confusion. Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for playing,

Nathan Hajek
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

nhajek@fantasyflightgames.com


Edited by Zaltyre, 13 May 2014 - 12:07 PM.

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#27 Bagpus

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:02 PM

That's great!
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#28 Demoncow

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 09:17 PM

Precisely the way I've been playing.


Demoncow: He who has become a marauder.

#29 thedremak

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:15 AM

That's how I've been playing also. Kind of the common sense answer. I guess some people like to make things more complex.

#30 Zaltyre

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:07 PM

That's how I've been playing also. Kind of the common sense answer. I guess some people like to make things more complex.

Yeah- that's how it's been played by my groups as well, but I'm glad there's an official word on the matter. It would definitely impact strategy if, say, heroes didn't get Interlude gold for that shopping step.



#31 griton

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 02:25 PM

So according to the FFG Sez response, It's effectively a special Campaign Phase that goes like this:

 

C1. Receive Gold from Search Cards

C3. Receive Rewards

I1. Level up Monsters

C5/I2. Clearance Sale (Everything Must Go!*)

I3. Upgrade Shop (out with the old, in with the new)

C2. Cleanup

C4. Spend Experience Points (so any current or future skill/OL cards purchased here that may affect shopping don't apply to the special phase, but would to normal shopping phases, and it's not REALLY a shopping phase anyway)

C6. Choose next quest

C7. Set up quest

C8. Travel

 

* Ordinary Shopping Rules, special offers, promotions, hero abilities, and overlord cards may not apply in your area; see BGG, Community Forums, and/or Errata for details.

 

Not the most elegant of solutions, but at least it doesn't have weird contradictions or scenarios that don't make sense, effectively forcing everyone to operate on house rules.



#32 Zaltyre

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 03:24 PM

griton- you may have missed it, but a few posts up, we now have an official FFG answer on the subject, and it's actually a pretty clear solution- no house rules required.


Edited by Zaltyre, 19 May 2014 - 03:24 PM.


#33 griton

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:33 PM

griton- you may have missed it, but a few posts up, we now have an official FFG answer on the subject, and it's actually a pretty clear solution- no house rules required.

I think you missed that what I was doing was clarifying / rephrasing FFG's response. hence the "So according the the FFG Sez response*" and "doesn't have [stuff that effectively forces] house rules"

 

* "FFG Sez" being the nickname for semi-official responses from FFG based on email communications, not yet verified by officially printed FAQ/Errata documents, named after the thread/page on BGG that compiles all of that info.



#34 Zaltyre

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 05:39 PM

 

griton- you may have missed it, but a few posts up, we now have an official FFG answer on the subject, and it's actually a pretty clear solution- no house rules required.

I think you missed that what I was doing was clarifying / rephrasing FFG's response. hence the "So according the the FFG Sez response*" and "doesn't have [stuff that effectively forces] house rules"

 

* "FFG Sez" being the nickname for semi-official responses from FFG based on email communications, not yet verified by officially printed FAQ/Errata documents, named after the thread/page on BGG that compiles all of that info.

 

Sorry- you're right- I missed that and figured you were referring to something on BGG. The response I posted further up was emailed to me as a response to a rules question I asked this month, so I personally looked at it as more "official" than "semi-official," though I understand that's no different from everyone else's perspective to any other comment posted in a forum.



#35 griton

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 09:10 AM

so I personally looked at it as more "official" than "semi-official," though I understand that's no different from everyone else's perspective to any other comment posted in a forum.

The reason I refer to it as "semi-official" (i.e. partly official) is that it has come from an official source, but has yet to make it into the official published material. We've actually seen some of the semi-official email responses from FFG contradict each other and then settle on a certain direction before being published into the FAQ/Errata documents. Hence why I designate FFG Sez material as "semi-official" and rulebooks and FAQ/Errata PDFs as official.


Edited by griton, 28 May 2014 - 09:11 AM.


#36 sigmazero13

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 10:16 AM

While that's true, the vast majority of rulings from FFG never make their way into an FAQ; this is true for pretty much every FFG game I've played.

 

Heck, for Runewars, I have a 12-page document of rulings straight from the designer, with only a handful that have made it to the FAQ.  Once in awhile, one of the rulings will change, but that's pretty rare - the vast majority of them have not changed despite being "challenged" by new players who come in asking questions :)



#37 BentoSan

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 11:03 AM

 

so I personally looked at it as more "official" than "semi-official," though I understand that's no different from everyone else's perspective to any other comment posted in a forum.

The reason I refer to it as "semi-official" (i.e. partly official) is that it has come from an official source, but has yet to make it into the official published material. We've actually seen some of the semi-official email responses from FFG contradict each other and then settle on a certain direction before being published into the FAQ/Errata documents. Hence why I designate FFG Sez material as "semi-official" and rulebooks and FAQ/Errata PDFs as official.

 

 

aka... its all hearsay and wont stand up in the court of Nerekall :P



#38 griton

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:37 AM

aka... its all hearsay and wont stand up in the court of Nerekall :P

That depends entirely on who is bribing / demonically controlling whom at the time.






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