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Counterplot & Timing


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#1 livingEND

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:47 PM

Greetings, rule arcanists!

 

 

I want to talk about Counterplot for a minute because it exhibits a pretty confusing templating. Let's have a quick look at the event:

 

conq28.jpg

 

Most importantly: "After an opponent reveals a plot card, kneel a unique ico_lannister.png character to cancel the revealing of that plot [...]"
 

The first part of this line is worded like a normal response (to be played in step 5 of the framework action window) even though the effect is actually a cancel (to be played in step 2 of the framework action window), wordings that are obviously at odds with each other. To put this in perspective, imagine The Hand's Judgement was worded as follows:

"Response: After an opponent plays an event, pay 1 gold to cancel the effects of that event card."

 

This contrived effect is worded to take place in the response step of the action window but does something that should happen in its save/cancel step. Here the actual event for comparison:
 

 

landing59.jpg

 

The Hand's Judgement is a good example for the standard templating of cancels used on over 30 different cards: 

Pay cost X to cancel Y.

 

Only one other card in the game has the same wording as Counterplot that combines passive introductory line with cancel effect, and that card is Bronze Shield. So, what distinguishes these two cards from all other cards with cancel effects?

It turns out they're the only two direct cancels (i.e. not counting cards like Oberyn's Shield Bearer) that specificly cancel an opponent's effect. Does that mean the "After X happens" line has no bearing on the timing of the cancel at all and is but a mere reminder that you aren't allowed to cancel one of your own effects with it? What is the problem with

"Kneel a unique ico_lannister.png character to cancel the revealing of an opponent's plot card and move it to its owner's used pile. [...]"

 

or respectively

"Kill attached character to cancel the effects of an opponent's event card just played. [...]",

 

solutions that don't change the way both cards play out but are congruent to all other cancel effects?

 

 

 

Why does this matter?

I stumbled upon this issue when I asked myself whether playing Counterplot counts against the limit of your own Fear of Winter. With the current wording on Counterplot there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to this particular question.

 

Cancels are supposed to happen before the resolution of the framework action. Since plots are revealed simultanteously, Fear of Winter is not yet revealed when you play Counterplot to cancel the revealing of your opponent's plot and thus Counterplot doesn't count against the Fear of Winter limit.
On the other hand, the line "After an opponent reveals a plot card..." indicates that plots have already been revealed when you play Counterplot, which would effectively make it the one card you're allowed to play during the Fear of Winter turn.

 

 

I'm looking forward to reading your opinions or getting torn apart by a mob for being a lunkhead. Cheers!



#2 Bomb

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:15 PM

Sorry that this is brief, but in my opinion, if you play Counterplot in your attempt to cancel the revelation of Fear of Winter, then it has not successfully been revealed yet and therefore Counterplot would not count against Fear of Winter's limit.



#3 Slothgodfather

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:02 PM

That was going to be my reply as well Bomb, but the lannister player is the one who is choosing Fear of Winter for their plot and plan to cancel whatever plot the opponent is playing.

 

Since the event is played in Step 2 of "Reveal Plots" - before Step 3, where plots are fully "revealed" - will the Counterplot count against the Lanni player's own Fear of Winter.

 

Technically, the event is played before the "reveal plot" resolved.



#4 Bomb

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:10 PM

That was going to be my reply as well Bomb, but the lannister player is the one who is choosing Fear of Winter for their plot and plan to cancel whatever plot the opponent is playing.

 

Since the event is played in Step 2 of "Reveal Plots" - before Step 3, where plots are fully "revealed" - will the Counterplot count against the Lanni player's own Fear of Winter.

 

Technically, the event is played before the "reveal plot" resolved.

 

That is actually the same thing.  The Save/Cancel Responses step is before the resolution of revealing a new plot card.  Any card played before Step 3 should be considered played before any plot card's text has been activated.  This includes any event cancels, such as Paper Shield, that might be played to cancel Counterplot. 

 

Once you get to Step 3, all plot card text activates because it is now revealed.

 

***Also, keep in mind that if Fear of Winter was a plot card that was previously revealed before players attempted to reveal these new plots, it would STILL count against the cards in your hand because it is still technically revealed until the next plot card has successfully been revealed.  I bet that this scenario might be broached at some point in near future considering it's a popular restricted card choice in a number of Lanni PBtT decks.


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#5 waranou

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:48 AM

I'm sorry, but I can't understand that thig about the steps.

 

I mean, Fear of winter is not a plot which has a "when revealed effect". It is a constant effect, and then:

 

"(2.2) Plot Effect Resolution
Continuous or constant plot effects take
effect immediately and simultaneously, as
soon as the plot cards are revealed."
 
So, the steps thing is for the "when revealed plots", and then you don't have to wait any step for the fear of winter to be active, right??
 
I think the resolution would be that if the Lannister player plays a fear of witer, it is revealed at the same time than the opponent's plot.
 
Then, if the Lannister use counterplot after the fear of winter, the counterplot would be the only card he can play until he reveals a new plot, right?


#6 -Istaril

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 09:19 AM

Waranou, you're confusing a few concepts - but for very understandable reasons. 

 

There are three different "when revealed" we're talking about here. 

 

The first is when you turn your plot card up, "revealing" what it is. However, just like many other game effects, there's an opportunity to cancel that 'revealing' before it actually resolves (before the plot card *actually* becomes your revealed plot card). 

 

So framework step 1: I choose and 'reveal' (show) "Fear of Winter", he shows Valar

actually has 3 parts

I. Initiate (Pay all costs, show the card to your opponent, etc etc)

II. Save cancel opportunity: Counterplot is played here, cancelling the revelation of valar, resolving, etc

II. Resolve (Fear of Winter becomes your revealed plot - its constant effect now applies).

 

Then we move on to step 2, determining initiative, and so on. As you can see, cards played in step II were before Fear of Winter became your revealed plot.



#7 ktom

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 09:49 AM

Here's what the "reveal plots" framework window looks like in full detail:

 

Step 1.1 - Initiate "choose and reveal plots"

Step 2.1 - Save/Cancel vs. "choose and reveal plots"

Step 3.1 - Resolve "choose and reveal plots"  <-- Continuous plots take full effect here

-----

Step 1.2 - Initiate "count initiative"

Step 2.2 - Save/Cancel vs. "count initiate"

Step 3.2 - Resolve "count initiative"  <-- High initiate count "wins" here

-----

Step 1.3 - Initiate "determine first player"

Step 2.3 - Save/Cancel vs. "determine first player"

Step 3.3 - Resolve "determine first player"  <-- Chosen person becomes First Player for the round here

-----

Step 1.4 - Initiate first "when revealed" plot

Step 2.4 - Save/Cancel vs. first "when revealed" plot

Step 3.4 - Resolve first "when revealed" plot

-----

Repeat Step 1.4 - Step 3.4 for each "when revealed" plot

-----

Step 4 - Passives to everything that happened in Steps 1.1 - 3.4

Step 5 - Responses to anything that happened in Steps 1.1 - 4

Step 6 - End window  <-- Moribund cards are physically removed from play here

 

 

Now, to understand Counterplot, it's important to realize that it is played in Step 2.1 above. It's different, because all other plot cancel effects we have would be played in Step 2.4. In fact, Counterplot is the only card I think we have that can be played in Step 2.1 right now (?).

 

So, Since FoW wouldn't go into effect unit Step 3.1, any cards played in Step 2.1 would not count against the limit - because the limit hadn't been activated yet.

 

Hope the detailed timing flow chart helps clear up what Bomb was saying.


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#8 doulos2k

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 10:30 AM

And to follow on from that logic and from what Bomb also mentions earlier... is it correct then that if Fear of Winter was ALREADY you're revealed plot and you've ALREADY played one card from hand during the turn leading up to the plot reveal... you CANNOT play Counterplot?


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#9 ktom

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 10:44 AM

Yes. 

 

Looking at the detailed steps above, if you start Step 1.1 with a FoW in play from the previous round, it does not go away until Step 3.1. That means its limit of 1 card is still active until Step 3.1, so just like the pre-plot window of the round after FoW is revealed, any cards you play in Step 2.1 (i.e. Counterplot) will be subject to that limit.


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#10 waranou

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 11:19 AM

Ok, thank you for your answers, it is much clear for me now






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