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a question about large monster movement


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#1 joshmp1985

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:14 AM

If anyone could answer this question about large monster movement I would be very grateful. It has caused a few head aches throughout my play sessions.

 

When I am taking 2 move actions in a row with a large monster (takes up more than one space) when the first move action has ended does the monster have to expand back to its full size before starting the second move action or are they able to do all the movement of two move actions in one go and then expand at the end?? 



#2 Bagpus

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:32 AM

Needs to end it's first move action in a legal position... ie expanded and able to be legally placed.
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#3 Zaltyre

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:54 AM

Needs to end it's first move action in a legal position... ie expanded and able to be legally placed.

This is only true if it ends its first action- the FAQ states that a move action may be interrupted to perform an additional move action (which grants more MP,) and that since the two actions are both move actions, there is no need to distinguish them.

 

A large monster could, therefore, take a move action, immediately interrupt to take a second move action, and move double its speed without expanding in the middle.



#4 griton

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:44 AM

A large monster could, therefore, take a move action, immediately interrupt to take a second move action, and move double its speed without expanding in the middle.

Zaltyre has it right, though it's usually more beneficial to find at least some point in the middle to expand so you get that second expanding "bonus". Though that's not always possible, it usually is unless you're playing a crowded map with 4 heroes who have been spending more time trying to prevent your large monster movement and less time completing their own objectives.



#5 Zaltyre

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:15 AM

 

A large monster could, therefore, take a move action, immediately interrupt to take a second move action, and move double its speed without expanding in the middle.

Zaltyre has it right, though it's usually more beneficial to find at least some point in the middle to expand so you get that second expanding "bonus". Though that's not always possible, it usually is unless you're playing a crowded map with 4 heroes who have been spending more time trying to prevent your large monster movement and less time completing their own objectives.

 

I have been playing with 4 heroes, two of which summon familiars, and have become very tired of being fire-breathed upon. That is EXACTLY where my head is at.


Edited by Zaltyre, 30 April 2014 - 10:39 AM.


#6 Bagpus

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:49 AM

Needs to end it's first move action in a legal position... ie expanded and able to be legally placed.

This is only true if it ends its first action- the FAQ states that a move action may be interrupted to perform an additional move action (which grants more MP,) and that since the two actions are both move actions, there is no need to distinguish them.

A large monster could, therefore, take a move action, immediately interrupt to take a second move action, and move double its speed without expanding in the middle.
Are you sure this is correct? Page 16, final paragraph, left hand column, states "if the monster cannot fit it's entire base on the map, then it cannot end (or interrupt!!!) it's movement". I think you maybe exploiting the rule clarification in the FAQ concerning the fact that you do not need to differentiate between move actions for the purposes of overlord cards effecting movement.

I would like to hear other players opinions on this!

Edited by Bagpus, 30 April 2014 - 10:52 AM.

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#7 Zaltyre

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:15 PM

 

Are you sure this is correct? Page 16, final paragraph, left hand column, states "if the monster cannot fit it's entire base on the map, then it cannot end (or interrupt!!!) it's movement". I think you maybe exploiting the rule clarification in the FAQ concerning the fact that you do not need to differentiate between move actions for the purposes of overlord cards effecting movement.

I would like to hear other players opinions on this!

 

The monster figure can fit where it begins it's movement, because it hasn't shrunk yet Therefore, even if the shadow dragon must "re expand" when it declares its second move action (which gets it more total spaces moved if you do it in the middle of a move action) it can always reexpand before it has moved anywhere. So a shadow dragon can just take two move actions immediately, and have 6 movement points to spend. That is explicitly allowed by the ruling in the FAQ.


Edited by Zaltyre, 30 April 2014 - 12:15 PM.


#8 Bagpus

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:00 PM

So basically the rules state if a large monster interrupts a move action to perform a second action it needs to be placed legally at the point of the move interruption. You are arguing that in the special case of a move action being interrupted by a second move action that the figure does not legally need to placeable at the point of the interruption? Where in the FAQ is this stated? This feels like a "legal" exploitation of FAQ ruling meant to cover a different circumstance.
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#9 Zaltyre

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:47 PM

So basically the rules state if a large monster interrupts a move action to perform a second action it needs to be placed legally at the point of the move interruption. You are arguing that in the special case of a move action being interrupted by a second move action that the figure does not legally need to placeable at the point of the interruption? Where in the FAQ is this stated? This feels like a "legal" exploitation of FAQ ruling meant to cover a different circumstance.

That is not what I am arguing- all I said in my last comment is that it is possible to perform 1 move action, then immediately interrupt it and perform a second. In this case, the large monster will have 2x its normal speed (though at the cost of both actions) and can move without expanding anywhere in between. In order to end or interrupt movement, I agree/maintain that the monster figure must be able to be placed on the board.

 

I think what's confusing is that if the monster moved one (or two) space(s), before declaring the second move action, then it would need to be replaced on the map. If it does this after spending zero movement, that is not an issue.



#10 griton

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:01 AM

This isn't even in the FAQ, it's in the core rulebook on page 11 and 8.

 

p. 11, Overlord Turn in Detail (which starts on page 10)

 

...

Monsters may perform the following actions, which are similar to the hero actions (see "Hero Turn in Detail" on page 8):

  • Move: The monster moves a number of spaces up to its Speed (see "Move" on page 8).

...

 

p. 8, Move

 

... A hero may also decide to perform two move actions consecutively, in which case the hero receives movement points equal to twice his Speed.

...

 

So the monster isn't even immediately interrupting its first move action, it's just performing two consecutively and receiving double movement points instead.


Edited by griton, 01 May 2014 - 09:02 AM.


#11 Zaltyre

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:27 PM

So perhaps this issue is that I was making a distinction between "receive movement points, spend movement points, then receive and spend more movement points" and "receive movement points, receive more movement points, spend all movement points." If the latter is not interrupting a movement action (performing another action after the receiving, but before the spending of some movement points,) then what constitutes "interrupting" a move action? I think we have to assume that "interrupting a move action" means performing another action before all movement points received from a move action are spent. In the special case where this "interrupting" action is another move action, the FAQ seems to state that there is no need to distinguish the movement points received from each individual action.



#12 Bagpus

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:40 PM

This isn't even in the FAQ, it's in the core rulebook on page 11 and 8.
 
p. 11, Overlord Turn in Detail (which starts on page 10)

 
...
Monsters may perform the following actions, which are similar to the hero actions (see "Hero Turn in Detail" on page 8):

  • Move: The monster moves a number of spaces up to its Speed (see "Move" on page 8).
...
 
p. 8, Move

 
... A hero may also decide to perform two move actions consecutively, in which case the hero receives movement points equal to twice his Speed.
...

 
So the monster isn't even immediately interrupting its first move action, it's just performing two consecutively and receiving double movement points instead.

Great thanks for this... It clears things up for me nicely!
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#13 bat22

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 07:24 PM

I'm relatively new to Descent so I need something clarified about larger monster movement / expansion.

 

The way I've been playing, I shrink 'em down, count the spaces, and expand on the last. But I use the monster's extra space to move ahead. It drives my playmates crazy esp. w/ 4-6 space monsters who only have 3 movement but are able to descend on them in 2 move actions.

 

Since a monster may expand w/o penalty onto a watery space, I've used this size-shifting to glide over water spaces like they weren't there.

 

So am I playing by the rules as they are meant to be played, or just being a really cheap Overlord w/o regard for ettiquette?



#14 BentoSan

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 08:19 PM

That sounds right bat, a massive (6spaces) monster is able to move ahead 10 spaces when using the movement rules properly. Move 3 spaces, expand, move 3 spaces, expand.

A monster will not be able to expand more than twice in a turn unless the overlord uses a card which gives the monster a third move action (like dash), or a monster performs an ability on that monster (like summon).

Edited by BentoSan, 04 May 2014 - 08:51 PM.


#15 griton

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:31 AM

So perhaps this issue is that I was making a distinction between "receive movement points, spend movement points, then receive and spend more movement points" and "receive movement points, receive more movement points, spend all movement points." If the latter is not interrupting a movement action (performing another action after the receiving, but before the spending of some movement points,) then what constitutes "interrupting" a move action? I think we have to assume that "interrupting a move action" means performing another action before all movement points received from a move action are spent. In the special case where this "interrupting" action is another move action, the FAQ seems to state that there is no need to distinguish the movement points received from each individual action.

The rules regarding "move actions" are a bit weird in Descent and large monsters just compound things. If it wasn't for the large monsters shrinking/expanding (which I do feel is a necessary evil in a world with smaller, more constrained maps), they probably could've left out the "interrupt a move action" and just left a "move action" as giving you points which you could spend later in the turn. But they needed some way to limit the shrinking / expanding possibilities. (Also some exceptions for "enter a space during a move action" cards which I think could've changed without much effect.)

 

That said, the case of the rules stating "use two move actions simultaneously to receive double movement points" is effectively the same as "declare a move action, shrink, interrupt move action and expand in the same spaces as you started and declare a second move action, shrink, move double your speed, expand at the end". 

 

 

It drives my playmates crazy esp. w/ 4-6 space monsters who only have 3 movement but are able to descend on them in 2 move actions.

Yeah, the Speed of 3 is deceptive with Large monsters, but this is very definitely intended. If you look at comparable large monsters from 1e, the 2e versions almost always have a lower speed because it is meant to take the shrinking/expanding rules into account.


Edited by griton, 05 May 2014 - 09:34 AM.


#16 BentoSan

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:58 PM

The advantage for the heroes is that with proper placement of their heroes they can really mess up large monster movement and cause headaches for the overlord.



#17 Zamzoph

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 06:25 PM

So to be clear, a large monster can only interrupt a move if it's to perform its second action, right?

 

That way, a large monster can't just shrink, move one space, expand, shrink, move one space, expand, shrink, move one space, expand, shrink, move one space...

 

Or even worse: crawling like an inch worm, continuously shrinking and expanding without actually moving from one space to another and expending movement points.



#18 Whitewing

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:53 PM

That's right Zamzoph.



#19 griton

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:40 AM

So to be clear, a large monster can only interrupt a move if it's to perform its second action, right?

And it has to be able to declare/perform that action from the space it's in before expanding (no melee attacks declared from 3 spaces away, then expanding to perform the attack).



#20 Nonimus

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:42 PM

w8! when interupt its movement monster needs to expand, right?

even if it 2 move actions he stil needs to expand, or did i got it wrong?






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