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Jovian-Pattern Missile battery (ITS 158) for what?


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#1 Alfdam

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:11 AM

Hello,

My question would be what is the purpose of that Macrobattery? 


Jovian-Pattern Missile battery (ITS 158)
"The pods are mostly outside the hull and can fire all their missiles
in one immediate, devastating salvo, an advantage tempered
by the lengthy time it takes to reload them."
 
Even if a Macrobattery is alone shooting to someone, it's damage would be added together when scores hits. 
Or am I missing something from the rules? The real "salvo" of the system when two or more slot of Macrobattery shoot at same target, adding up all the damage and remove armour only once, instead of two or more times. 

Thanks for the help in advance! 

Alfdam


#2 Errant

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:06 AM

You're conflating fluff and rules. Think of it as instead of half an hour of lobbing rocks at each other, you have a thirty second avalanche of exploding murder death.



#3 Alfdam

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:43 AM

It's not hard to get confuse if the fluff and the rules use the same words for different things. 
Another question! 

Can a torpedo fired upon someone in the AFT section of the ship from PROW weapon slot? 



#4 Nameless2all

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:07 AM

I have no idea what you just asked.

 

Was it

 

Can a torpedo fired upon "hit" someone in the AFT section of the ship "if fired" from PROW weapon slot ?

or

 

Can a torpedo fired upon "from" someone in the AFT section of the ship from "hit someone in the" PROW weapon slot ?

though it could be none of the above.  The choice is yours.  :D


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#5 Annaamarth

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:40 AM

To answer the original question, the major benefit to the Missile Rack is it's high Strength value- this let's it get as many hits as a broadside.  The downside is that it fires once every other round.

 

I recommend looking at the Mathhammer fix in House Rules and giving the Missile Pod Storm, as Broadside Weapons, in order to make it as effective as (I feel) it ought.  Otherwise, either use more normal macrocannons or use the Missile racks for ambush tactics.


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#6 Alfdam

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:03 AM

Why the original system needs a fix? 



#7 AlphariusOmegon7

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:08 AM

Because at higher levels, Macrocannons will kill everything.  There is literally in RAW no need to get any other weapons ever, just Macrocannons everywhere.  Mathhammer makes Macrocannons good at what they should be good at - taking out faster lighter armoured vessels and void shields.  

 

Also, Torpedoes MUST fire in the Fore Arc on vessels of Grand Cruiser size and smaller.  Unless your RTs have got a Battleship in their pockets, they CANNOT fire Aft, and even then they could only fire Aft if the Torpedoes were in the Keel slot as Prow weapons can't fire Aft, I think.  



#8 Kasatka

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:36 AM

Torpedoes can be mounted in Prow and Keel slots only and can only fire in the Fore arc, this applies to all ships of Grand Cruiser and smaller (ie all ships we currently have stats for). On Battleships the Keel slot can be used to fire Torpedoes 360 degrees and the Prow slot can fire them 270 degrees (Fore/Port/Stardboard).


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#9 Tenebrae

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 03:23 PM

Torpedoes can be mounted in Prow and Keel slots only and can only fire in the Fore arc, this applies to all ships of Grand Cruiser and smaller (ie all ships we currently have stats for). On Battleships the Keel slot can be used to fire Torpedoes 360 degrees and the Prow slot can fire them 270 degrees (Fore/Port/Stardboard).

Source?



#10 AlphariusOmegon7

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:44 AM

 

Torpedoes can be mounted in Prow and Keel slots only and can only fire in the Fore arc, this applies to all ships of Grand Cruiser and smaller (ie all ships we currently have stats for). On Battleships the Keel slot can be used to fire Torpedoes 360 degrees and the Prow slot can fire them 270 degrees (Fore/Port/Stardboard).

Source?

 

The latter likely comes from somewhere in Battlefleet Gothic, the former comes from the Battlefleet Koronus splatbook which is brilliantly helpful.  



#11 Kasatka

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:19 AM

 

Torpedoes can be mounted in Prow and Keel slots only and can only fire in the Fore arc, this applies to all ships of Grand Cruiser and smaller (ie all ships we currently have stats for). On Battleships the Keel slot can be used to fire Torpedoes 360 degrees and the Prow slot can fire them 270 degrees (Fore/Port/Stardboard).

Source?

 

Logic was my source. If Keel slots allow for 360 degrees of fire, and Prow slots allow for 270 degrees of fire with a macrocannon system, and there is a specifically stated limit of torpedoes firing Fore only regardless of slot mounting, then when the ship mounting the weapon system doesn't trigger the restriction (ie is bigger than a grand cruiser) then it would return to the original firing arc allowances.

 

It's arguably a moot point as i doubt we'll ever see anything bigger than a Grand Cruiser for the game line.


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#12 Tenebrae

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:48 AM

The latter likely comes from somewhere in Battlefleet Gothic, the former comes from the Battlefleet Koronus splatbook which is brilliantly helpful.

Thing is, I was reasonably sure it wasn't from Gothic.
There is exactly one ship in BFG (2 in the revised version I think?)* that can launch torpedoes out the sides.
 
These are the

  • Ork Hulk (essentially an Ork-held spacehulk), and those use in specialised launchers that only target the sides.
  • Planet Killer, a unique ship, which somehow is able to turn it's torp launchers 270 degrees.

Both of these are "post-battleships", meaning they are bigger than battleships. Chaos, Imperial, Eldar, Ork and Tau battleships are all limited to launching torpedoes only in the front arc.
Necrons just don't use torps.
 
For the BFG Revision project files, go here.
Oh, and thank you for the recommendation of BFK, I'm very fond of that book - I should have probably cut that bit out of the question.

 
* The revision-version of certain tyranid ships technically have launch tubes with a wider choice of angles, but they technically don't fire torpedoes, so meh.



#13 AlphariusOmegon7

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:12 AM

Guess it's due to the fact that those are the standard firing arcs for Port/Keel weapons respectively, and thus presumably once above Grand Cruiser the torpedoes would follow the standard Port/Keel rules.  


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#14 Tenebrae

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:21 AM

Guess it's due to the fact that those are the standard firing arcs for Port/Keel weapons respectively, and thus presumably once above Grand Cruiser the torpedoes would follow the standard Port/Keel rules.  

I'm not sure what this refers to?

 

I would just repeat the point that:

 

Chaos, Imperial, Eldar, Ork and Tau battleships are all limited to launching torpedoes only in the front arc.

And that even the Ork Hulk does not have 270 degrees launchers, but rather seperate launchers for front, port and starport arcs.



#15 Kasatka

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:21 AM

You're quoting a completely different games system. While parallels may be drawn, i base my reasoning on the RAW in Rogue Trader and the RAI based on my logic and language skills.


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#16 Tenebrae

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:27 AM

You're quoting a completely different games system.

I am. The system that RT spaceships and spacecombat is build on, but a different system nevertheless.
The one that AO7 (and I) was guessing at you have your statement from.

While parallels may be drawn, i base my reasoning on the RAW in Rogue Trader and the RAI based on my logic and language skills.

Yeah...
Strictly speaking, we know based on logic and language how things are for ships no larger than Grand Cruisers. I went back to the statements you're probably basing your guess on (BFK, p. 8, "Launching Torpedoes"), and while they appear at first glance to imply that things are different for larger ships, they do infact no. They give out no information at all, at most implying that the situation might be different for larger ships, or for certain types of larger ships.

#17 Annaamarth

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:00 PM

I'm confused.  See, I get where Kasaltka is coming from, I just don't understand why this is a debate.

 

Citation 1: "[Because torpedos], on any vessel of Grand Cruiser size and smaller, torpedoes may only fire into the Fore arc, regardless of where the weapon Component is located." BFK page 6.

 

Citation 2: Rogue Trader core rulebook page 219: "Prow weapons on light cruisers, cruisers, or larger vessels may fire to the fore, port and starboard."  Also, "Keel weapons may fire in any direction."

 

Citation 3:  BFK- torpedo tubes can only be mounted in Prow or Keel slots, BFK page 37.

 

IF we assume that RT is a restrictive system (i.e., you cannot do anything unless the rules say you can do the thing) then Citation 3 grants permission for Battleships with Prow or Keel slots to mount torpedo tubes, Citation 2 grants permissions for those torpedoes to be fired as appropriate for those slots, and Citation 1 does not apply because the vessel is not "Grand Cruiser size or smaller."

 

IF we assume that RT is a permissive system (i.e. you can do anything the rules don't specifically restrict) then permission is inherent to the permissive system, Citation 3 restricts where the torpedoes may be mounted, Citation 2 restricts which arcs they may be fired in, and Citation 1, itself restricted to vessels of Grand Cruiser size or smaller, does not apply.

 

THEREFORE, RAW, in Rogue Trader, a battleship may fire torpedoes in whatever direction is appropriate for the slot the torpedo tubes are mounted in, regardless of the rules put forth in Battlefleet Gothic- because BfG is not Rogue Trader.  Quod erat demonstratandum.

 

In your game, do as you like- I know I do- but, as we are not in the House Rules subforum, let's keep it RAW, yes?  Unless there are errata or other rules you would like to cite to refute?


Edited by Annaamarth, 06 May 2014 - 02:01 PM.

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#18 Tenebrae

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:47 PM

By RAW, there are no battleships.

Thus rendering your invocation of RAW on the subject... questionable.

 

I am aware that I'm running purely on parallels and references to other games (well, to BFG) for my argument.

But my main point is still and have always been that

We know nothing about how (or even if) battleships should/will be handled in RT, so any assumptions on what these ships might be capable of is questionable.


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#19 Erathia

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:35 PM

By RAW, there are no battleships.

Thus rendering your invocation of RAW on the subject... questionable.

 

I am aware that I'm running purely on parallels and references to other games (well, to BFG) for my argument.

But my main point is still and have always been that

We know nothing about how (or even if) battleships should/will be handled in RT, so any assumptions on what these ships might be capable of is questionable.

 

An equally valid interpretation of RAW is that Battleships (and larger) cannot fire torpedoes at all. 

 

It's pretty clear that the Rules as Intended here is that Battleships would have 270 degree fire like a normal prow based weapon, but without rules for them we can only use our common sense. Which as I will always remind people does not really exist in the grim and dark future.

 

Now to light incense and chant for three hours in order to have the machine spirits properly relay my message exarctly as attended.


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#20 Annaamarth

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:44 PM

Nope, I'm still saying that RAW, what I have typed up stands.  The fact that there are no stats for battleships doesn't mean that battleships don't exist or haven't been addressed- on the contrary!  They've clearly been referenced in RT in the past (Core page 191, "what about battleships" sidebar, for example), and making a caveat about "if Grand Cruiser size or smaller" implicitly requires that there be something larger than a Grand Cruiser- hence, battleship.

 

RAI is always subject to interpretation barring dev team commentary or emails, but I'd tend to agree with you Erathia.


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RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played





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