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Let's Talk Bilbo


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#41 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:35 AM

Sorry for my language when it is not correct. Of course.

 

Dain only is played in few decks, Bilbo can be played in all decks.

 

PD: Dain is a very powerfull hero -you know, the overpowered dwarfs theme-, and we are comparing Dain and Bilbo, so Bilbo is good also :D


Edited by Mndela, 28 April 2014 - 04:36 AM.

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#42 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:48 AM

Bilbo is not good in comparsion to Dain. Dain has monsters stats and monster ability. Bilbo has weak stats and subpar ability. 

No additional card you draw during your first resource phase thanks to Bilbo can bring the same effect of Dain just being there standing. Also, Dain is just 2 threat points over the Bilbo, lol.


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#43 Rapier

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 05:15 AM

And I think not. Example: Dain Ironfoot. Released same cycle as Bilbo. No threat penalty. EVERY FRIGGIN DWARF IN THE GAME GETS +1 ATTACK AND +1 WILLPOWER WHILE DAIN IS STANDING. Again, no threat penalty. Now, stop trying to justify Bilbo by comparing him to the player cards. No, seriously, stop.

 

Comparing any hero except Spirit Glorfindel to Dain Ironfoot you'll find the other hero comes up short. Dain Ironfoot is basically the best hero in the game, Glorfindel is a contender because of his stupidly low threat cost - depending on what you want these two heroes might be comparable or one would be better than the other.

No other hero even comes close. You shouldn't be using these two heroes as the basis for any hero to hero comparison because the conclusion is essentially - every hero is bad, or these two should be weaker. (Glorfindel should come in at 9 or 10 threat, Dain should do attack or willpower not both).



#44 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 05:34 AM

I used Dain as most prominent example of a hero having great ability with no threat penalty at all. Which, as I stated previously, was released in the same cycle.


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#45 alogos

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:07 AM

Mndela, are you using Bilbo more than spirit glorfindel ? or more than Lore Pippin ? and win ? 

 

If you want to compare him, compare him with Ori.

If you play Ori, you surely play with Bombur, and a third dwarf hero, and erebor record keeper.

Well, in 80% of game where I play Ori, I have my 5th dwarf turn 1, if not, turn 2.

So... Bilbon as +3 threat for 1 or 2 more card ? yeah... crappy.

 

I need to deckbuild dwarf ? well, you need to boost bilbo too.

 

I have played a lot of "tournament" and we never, ever, see bilbo more than once. (and that's like, 60 or more decks seen) (and it was me, testing him, and he died first turn against nightmare ungoliant spawn... Ori survived with the help of Dain)



#46 lleimmoen

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 07:04 AM

 

Dain should do attack or willpower not both.

 

Here we go again, us errata seekers, haha. I actually think Dain should only work on Dwarf allies (just like they "dwarved" Battle Master). You still have a very, very good hero but it is not so straightforward, you do not get the boost from the off.



#47 Nerdmeister

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 07:24 AM

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Just to throw some effects into the mix that could be powered by having a "spare hero" as some seem to think Bilbo to be. These effects all have in common that they are cheap resource-wise and if you built your deck with the strategy in mind to use one of your heroes exclusively to power such effects, then you can take it a long way. I have used Bilbo like this myself with good success.

And you still get the free card draw. Granted, it is less usable the more players there are (which I have also stated in earlier posts). Though you can´t look at Bilbo and then primarily choose to discuss him from a 4-player perspective; the example with Brand has already been mentioned in that regard.

 

Though I would still argue that Bilbo can work perfectly fine with burning brand and a bit of defense boost to take some enemy attacks as well.


Edited by Nerdmeister, 28 April 2014 - 07:30 AM.


#48 Courchevel

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 07:30 AM

Bilbo is for me the worst Hero of the game, just beatten by spirit Pipin. If you add Dunhere, I think you've got the top 3 worst Heros of the game.

 

That said, I regurlarly enjoy playing Bilbo as its quite enjoyable and fun in multiplayer games.



#49 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 08:24 AM

I agree with Nerdmeister. One hero not only quests, defends or attack, there are more and more possibilities.

 

PD: and Fast Hitch :)


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#50 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 08:35 AM

Many heroes can be boosted to perform different spectacular things. Gimli, as an example, given right boost can kill most worthy foes with 1 hit alone. Oh, and if you happen to have heavy stroke in your hand...

 

That's not the point. Thread is not about how bad Bilbo is, it's about how bad he is for the amount of threat he brings compared to other heroes.


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#51 Glowwyrm

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:36 AM

Bilbo is great!  A little over-costed, but I still play him, especially in multi-player games.  I think Bilbo is much worse in solo, when you can't afford a high-threat low stat hero, even if he's netting you some extra cards (though I have run him alongside Leadermir and Denethor for a solid Gondor swarm deck).  In multi-player, I can run a mono-Lore deck (my favorite is Bilbo, Pippin and Mirlonde) that starts at a low threat (allowing me to get a Resourceful down first turn) and runs support for the rest of the team (card draw, healing, trapping, ranger bowing etc.).  One of my goals in running mono-Lore in multi-player is to pass card draw around to all the other players at the table, because the ability to provide card advantage for your team is valuable, especially for the Tactics player.  Biblo makes this easy to do.  While Beravor is also good, Biblo being a hobbit opens up a nice synergy with Lore Pippin.  And with a burning Brand and Protector of Lorien, he becomes a credible defender.  And, if you're really dedicated to helping the team, you could run Bilbo and Beravor (which I will try some time).

And maybe Bilbo is not "better" than Dain, per se, but I find him a lot more interesting to use and he can be a valuable part of multi-player strategy.

But, the whole point of this thread is "do I wish Bilbo had a lower threat cost?"  I would say yes, and 7 or even 8 would be appropriate.  I still play him as is though. 


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#52 Rapier

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:35 PM

I used Dain as most prominent example of a hero having great ability with no threat penalty at all. Which, as I stated previously, was released in the same cycle.

 

But you're basically taking arguably the best hero in the game - who is clearly broken and on a different level of power from almost every other hero (bar 1). This is just a terrible thing to do in terms of your argument as it makes it look weaker.

Every hero except one looks crap compared to Dain.



#53 leptokurt

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:55 PM

Bilbo is cool! He give you card or free! you don't need to do nothing! and with attachments he can also be a good defender and quester. I the time of core set and first cycle he was really ok. But now sure we have many cards to choose so he value is much less now. But what you want from old small hobbit?!  

This. All you need is Arwen or Protector of Lorien (that card makes him a beast in solo mode!) and Burning Brand plus some Fast Hitchs. With these new high attack enemies he is not that good anymore, ok, but there's still Hobbit Cloak to give Bilbo some additional DEF. There was a time however, when Bilbo was one of the best. In early game, he's ok. In end mid and endgame, he simply rocks the boat.

 

I'm glad that Bilbo exists. He's one of the few heroes that favour solo players.. A lot of my best results were gained with Bilbo.


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#54 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 10:56 PM

 

I used Dain as most prominent example of a hero having great ability with no threat penalty at all. Which, as I stated previously, was released in the same cycle.

 

But you're basically taking arguably the best hero in the game - who is clearly broken and on a different level of power from almost every other hero (bar 1). This is just a terrible thing to do in terms of your argument as it makes it look weaker.

Every hero except one looks crap compared to Dain.

 

Yes, I'm taking the best hero in the game because he perfectly proves my point. He is best hero in the game with 0 threat penalty. And Bilbo far from best with a 3 threat penalty? Can't you really catch my drift?


Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo, 28 April 2014 - 10:57 PM.

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#55 Nerdmeister

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:46 PM

I agree with Nerdmeister. One hero not only quests, defends or attack, there are more and more possibilities.

 

PD: and Fast Hitch :)

How could I forget fast hitch?!

Thanks for pointing that out to me :)



#56 Rapier

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 05:01 AM

 

 

I used Dain as most prominent example of a hero having great ability with no threat penalty at all. Which, as I stated previously, was released in the same cycle.

 

But you're basically taking arguably the best hero in the game - who is clearly broken and on a different level of power from almost every other hero (bar 1). This is just a terrible thing to do in terms of your argument as it makes it look weaker.

Every hero except one looks crap compared to Dain.

 

Yes, I'm taking the best hero in the game because he perfectly proves my point. He is best hero in the game with 0 threat penalty. And Bilbo far from best with a 3 threat penalty? Can't you really catch my drift?

 

 

No he doesn't. Dain is too good. This means that Dain is either undercosted (he could be threat 13 or 14 easily and still get played) or his ability is just too good to balance against the other heroes (which is my opinion).

Bilbo looks bad compared to Dain sure. So does Loreagon, As do all the other global boost heroes (Celebron, Boromir, Theodred). Basically everyone looks bad compared to Dain - so saying that Bilbo does too just doesn't prove anything except to bring your balance judgement into question.


You haven't responded to my argument that paying extra threat is usually for small benefits or large benefits with associated costs.

Bilbo is one of the only heroes in the game who can be hit by a cannot ready/exhaust affect and still help you because his ability is passive. 

Bilbo guarantees you access to his stats and the card draw unlike the only other hero that can guarantee card draw, Berevor. Now Berevor has better stats, 1 extra willpower, 1 extra attack and 2 extra hit points - for 1 extra threat. However Berevor can only give you 2 cards or 2 willpower, bilbo can give you 1 card and 1 willpower. As a defender (which is what Bilbo is best at) Bilbo can give you 1 card and 2 defence compared to 2 cards or 2 defence.

Also while Bilbo's card draw is no longer as good as it was (we have access to more card draw abilities than we used too) having the hobbit trait is better than ever. Bilbo can be targeted by 3 fast hitches, 2 ringmails,  boots of erebor, one hobbit cloak, a burning brand, bill the pony and help to power take no notice and receive halfling determination x3.

This extreme combo would give BIlbo 4 actions + 1 card a turn, 6 hitpoints, 4 defence vs enemies with a lower engagement than his threat and 6 vs enemies with a higher one, he could ignore all shadow cards and potentially have 12 defence, 7 attack and 7 wilpower.

Now yes, that requires you to put a lot of effort into bilbo (although in a hobbit deck that was red/purple/green you would probably run all those cards), realistically you wouldn't put all the fast hitches on bilbo or use the halfling derminations in one go like that. However as a defender you may well give bilbo all the other cards.

 You just can't get Berevor anywhere near that good - the hobbit trait is just better than the ranger one currently.

But really Bilbo's ability being completely passive - it doesn't even require an action window. If Bilbo is on the table you get the card - it's not possible to stop it, is so good. 

Maybe I could see him being threat 8 instead - anything lower than that and Bilbo would just be an auto-include. I think he still has a lot of advantages that justify threat 9 instead. I've never felt that bilbo wasn't pulling his weight.


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#57 leptokurt

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 05:38 AM

I think you can't explain Bilbo's awesomeness better than rapier just did.

 

Good stuff! :)


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#58 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 05:41 AM

God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.


Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo, 29 April 2014 - 05:41 AM.

That's cursed table-talk, and I'll stick you, if you don't shut it down, see?'


#59 Nerdmeister

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:24 AM

God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

How to define irony...?


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#60 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:56 AM

 

God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

How to define irony...?

 

Easily: Don't read someobdy's thread and strike an arguement with that person. :lol:


That's cursed table-talk, and I'll stick you, if you don't shut it down, see?'





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