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Let's Talk Bilbo


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#21 tacomen253

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

Ring attachment like:

 

Attach to a Bilbo hero.

 

Response: after Bilbo defenses one attack, exhaust 'Ring' to raise 1 threat and reduce enemy's attack to 0.

 

 

It could be good. Shadows arent cancelled, if not it would be over-powered.

I could see something like that possibly making Bilbo more appealing. But only having 3 copies of it per deck would be still little tough. Maybe along with the attachment there could be an event card that does something like "Action: Search your deck for a 'ring' attachment and add it to your hand. Then shuffle your deck." That way with 6 Bilbo "buff" cards you will have about a 12-13% chance to get at least one of them in your starting hand, compared to only about 6-7% with only 3 cards. Perhaps Bilbo would be less frowned upon if he got some sort of boost.



#22 lleimmoen

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:41 AM

He is playable. He is good, I would say. But for someone as special as Bilbo, he should have been more. The ally version seems very, very good though. 2 willpower, 2 hp, bring a pipe, shuffling the deck (I especially value that option for some strategies), that is power!



#23 Glaurung

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:19 PM

He is playable. He is good, I would say. But for someone as special as Bilbo, he should have been more. The ally version seems very, very good though. 2 willpower, 2 hp, bring a pipe, shuffling the deck (I especially value that option for some strategies), that is power!

 

 

Yes yes ally version look very good true. More options more different strategy and deck building. Sounds good anyway….


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#24 Raven1015

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:46 PM

Just wanted to point out that the game technically takes place during the 17 years between Bilbo's party (when he leaves the ring to Frodo) and when Frodo finally sets out from the Shire. So Bilbo doesn't have the ring during this time period and Frodo does, which is why Frodo has the damage cancellation ability.


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#25 Raven1015

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

My own two cents: I do think he's over-costed. I don't think it was a printing mistake, but rather a mistake by designers when the game was still new.


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#26 Noccus

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:47 PM

Just wanted to point out that the game technically takes place during the 17 years between Bilbo's party (when he leaves the ring to Frodo) and when Frodo finally sets out from the Shire. So Bilbo doesn't have the ring during this time period and Frodo does, which is why Frodo has the damage cancellation ability.


That's true. I didn't think long before posting, just had the idea and went with it. Oh well.
Yet the suggestion stands: attachment for Bibi to make him worth his cost.
"Not all those who wander are lost"

#27 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:55 PM

I call an easier fix: a simple errata and reprint in future packs.


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#28 Rapier

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:38 AM

med_bilbo-baggins-thfg.jpg
 

Game designers evaluated his ability as most powerful ability of all time as they gave him 3 points of threat over his head - biggest threat cost penalty ever seen in the history of LotR LCG. 

 

But let's think about what we actually get for those 3 points of additional starting threat.

A whole 1 additional card each draw phase! Pretty good from the first glance, but... game can be played in multiplayer, you know.

So, basically, the thing currently are:

In 1 player game player gets 100% card draw boost from Bilbo;

In 2 player game, the potency of this boost is halved to 50%;

In 3 player game, it's shrinked to 33%;

And finally, in a 4 player game it's no more than 25% of a boost.

 

Not so shiny anymore. More of it, you can't even choose a player to prosper - it's tied to the first player token. Even worse, Bilbo is weakling of a character by himself and requires major work around him to get him running well... and for that you need a card draw, which becomes extremely spread the more players are in the game. 

 

 

I think your analysis is a bit one sided. You claim that the card draw being split between multiple players reduces the effect - I assume on the grounds that in 2 player you only draw 3 cards instead of 4. However you disregard the fact that in multiplayer the threat cost for the ability is also relatively lower. (+3 threat cost for 1 player, a relative cost of +1.5 threat for 2 player).

The two players can more easily benefit from the free card draw without needing more supporting cards (resource acceleration primarily). The free card draw being passive is also not relatively worse - it's still +1 hero still available. Bilbo like all hobbits has poor stats it's true, but the hobbit trait is significantly more powerful now than it was when Bilbo card was created (then it was basically blank but his card draw ability was more unique in the card pool too).

Bilbo in a hobbit deck is a viable alternative to lore pippin to get you access to fast hitch, especially if you don't think you need the +3 to engagement costs (which isn't needed or relevant in a lot of quests).

 I also think you're heavily undervaluing the benefit of +1 card in your starting hand (when the start of the game is the most critical) even compared to Berevor who may help more (with a ready effect) but you need to draw it turn 1 for that effect.

I'm not convinced the ability is worth +3 threat (although I think Bilbo is easily playable with a 3 threat cost). if Bilbo was threat 6 he would probably be in every lore line up forever though, I can't believe that people in this thread seriously think that he should be 6.


The extra threat cost heros are mainly paying for additional benefits -

Grima and Beregond each cost 1 threat extra - and are paying for resource advantage.
Hirlon, Elladan and Elrohir pay for the potential for better stats at a cost of 1 extra. (These guys also have the penalty of getting worse if things start to go against the player).
Elrond pays 1 threat for having two abilities. (the second is pretty weak though)

Now to my mind Bilbo is paying 3 threat and gets: A passive ability, that always triggers every turn, and is always useful.

So I think 3 threat is perfectly fine actually. 



#29 alogos

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:11 AM

Misprint. Said it from the start.

 

 

Bilbo was a mistake I think. They meant for it to say 6 but no one caught on.

 

If it was, it would have been errated in the faq... it's been 6 faq since then !

 

But between Spirit Glorfindel and Lore Glorfindel, time has passed. Bilbon was design in a time where player'ss card where not so overpowered (except for few ones that still need balance). Then, at a certain point, player's became more and more powerfull, ability became greater (and so does responsability :) ) to a point where, sure, Bilbon became bad...

 

It is best to compare him with card that were printed around the same time.

 

 

 

Or better said: 3 threat points cost (the extra 3 threat points of Bilbo) are good for a 'direct card in hand' free with 2 cost? Let's see: Galadhrim Greeting cost 3 resources per -6 threat...

 

So 1'5 resources would be 3 threat.

 

We can think about the standard cost of 3 threat points are 1'5 resources.

 

Verdict: Bilbo's hability is better than normal ranking, because his cost is cheaper: you get for free an 'hability' with cost 2 rescoures (as Gleowine, even better: you have him in first hand automaticaly); the conditions is 'raise 3 threat'... but it is cheaper than Galadhrim Greeting, where decreasing 3 threat (the penalty of Bilbo) would cost only 1'5 resources, not 2 (the cost, remember, bilbo 'gives').

 

You missed something : galadrim's greeting.

Yes, it's a card, and to play it, you need to draw it. So the cost for 3 threat should be 1,5 resources + 0,5 card draw.

With Lorien's Wealth, we know that 3 card draw cost 1 card and 3 ressource, so that 2 card draw = 3 ressource, so 3 threat should be 2,25 ressources.

 

He was more balanced than most of the hero at the time... he was in the standard, but then, the standard changed, and he became weak.

 

Should they rebalanced him and make errata and reprint ? If they do, there is a lot of cards that need this, so they may never do it in the begining...



#30 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:43 AM

Rapier, quoting system of this forum is horrible, so consider this post as a reply to yours:

 

And I think your's is. Yes, it does. Because it is comparable to the encounter deck. You play with 4 players - you face 4 times more threats. But Bilbo still provides 1 card, regardless, which is 4 times less relevant in a 4 player game. That's just as a bold example.

 

Not saying they can't benefit from it. Saying they will benefit from it much less than one player, while feeling the double pressure. 

 

Loppin is very strong, I don't think I would ever swap him for Bilbo, especially in a multiplayer game. I have a hobbit deck, featuring both Loppin and Bilbo though. Works well in solo. Would probably suck in mulitplayer.

 

And I think you heavily overvaluating it. This 1 card might be exactly what you need, but it might (and most probably - will) be nothing. I never actually felt that disadvantage of Gandalf's delay.

 

I, for one, never said he should be 6 threat. All I'm saying is 9 threat is too friggin much. Either increase his stats ot reduce it.

 

I've already listed my analysis of overpriced heroes earlies, so I won't be doing it again.

 

You think his threat is fine - fine. I don't think so. Good day, sir.



#31 Rapier

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:46 AM

He was more balanced than most of the hero at the time... he was in the standard, but then, the standard changed, and he became weak.

 

Should they rebalanced him and make errata and reprint ? If they do, there is a lot of cards that need this, so they may never do it in the begining...

 

 

 

That depends on how good their design is - for example card draw becomes stronger as decks become stronger. So even though you might argue that heroes are getting more powerful (and apart form some Errant ones I don't think they are) Bilbo is still going to maintain strength because he can always help you to draw into the combo you wanted.



#32 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:48 AM

I like the thoughts of Rapier. It brings to me to compare Bilbo with Deep Knowledge (from last pack):

 

Deep-Knowledge.png

 

We can see that 1 extra drawn card costs 1 threat (without thinking you need the card in hand that triggers it, so it costs more than 1 threat, but ok); so if normal costs for 1 card is 1 threat, and a normal game is more than 3 rounds... Bilbo is cheaper than in first sight it seems!


A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#33 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:56 AM

Why are you still trying to justify this by comparing it to the player cards? It does not works this way. 

Other heroes get their abilities for free or for minor increase, in rare cases even decrease, of threat.



#34 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:02 AM

I'm thinking, Bilbo is greater even in multiplayer. For lore sphere is easy other options for drawing..., but, for example, if another player is leadership monosphere? That player would love Bilbo in game... ;)

 

At the moment, drawing hability is very cheap for lore, but for other spheres drawing effects are more expensive..., so Bilbo's hability is more important and cheaper than we can see in first sight.


Edited by Mndela, 28 April 2014 - 04:06 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#35 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:04 AM

Why are you still trying to justify this by comparing it to the player cards? It does not works this way. 

Other heroes get their abilities for free or for minor increase, in rare cases even decrease, of threat.

 

I think that compare cards is a good way for evaluating cards farther their first sight.


Edited by Mndela, 28 April 2014 - 04:07 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#36 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:10 AM

And I think not. Example: Dain Ironfoot. Released same cycle as Bilbo. No threat penalty. EVERY FRIGGIN DWARF IN THE GAME GETS +1 ATTACK AND +1 WILLPOWER WHILE DAIN IS STANDING. Again, no threat penalty. Now, stop trying to justify Bilbo by comparing him to the player cards. No, seriously, stop.



#37 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:15 AM

Hability of Dain is different than hability of Bilbo.

 

In fact, the best hability in the game is the drawing cards. As you have more cards in hand, your game become better, you have more options to play. Dain is useless if no dwarfs in game, in hand. :P . You never see Dain alone, he is a king, and he goes with dwarves armies.

Bilbo can be played in all decks. So Bilbo is better, is more versatil.

 

Return to first theme: drawing bonus is better than other bonus (+wp, +attack, etc). So drawing effects must be more expensive.
 


Edited by Mndela, 28 April 2014 - 04:16 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#38 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:19 AM

If you want to draw cards, you need cards that draw cards. If you dont have them? You need more drawing...lol.

Only heroes in play in setup can fix this problem. Atm are: Pippin Beravor Ori...., all of them needs conditions: Ori needs 5 dwarves in game, Beravor needs to be exhausted, Pippin engages enemy... Only Bilbo has no conditions (so it is just his threat cost).

 

The hability of drawing cards has no price. Is the best hability. All tactic players make his mulligan around foe-hammer; spirit players around mathom....well, almost all, but it is ok, isn't?

 

Even if you want an specific card, for example, Gleowine. You need Word of Command, and Gandalf in game. So you need 2 specific cards in game and 6 resources. Bilbo gives to you all in the same setup of game. No need combos neither tones of resources. So it is good than developers add other costs like +3 threat points and limited to first player.

 

PD: and Bilbo is the unique heroe that allows to draw for other players diferent than lore sphere (wll, only Beravor is in adittion, jeje)


Edited by Mndela, 28 April 2014 - 04:28 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#39 Mndela

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:30 AM

From my thoughts, the best card in all the game, in fact, is Bilbo...lol. Maybe only one card is better than him: Beravor.

 

PD: and Beravor needed be faqqed (you can wonder...)


Edited by Mndela, 28 April 2014 - 04:31 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#40 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:31 AM

Why are you calling abilities "habilities"? Is it some archaic british wording or something?

 

On the subject: Yes, it's different, because it's a lot better.

Cards are no use if you can't play them.

Well, arguement "dain is useless if there are no dwars" is equal to me saying: "bilbo is useless if I put cards that do not belong to sphere of my heroes into my deck". Bilbo is worse because he can't do what Dain can. In solo, if you're running 2 another dwarf heroes, it's +4 worth of stats, and +6 for each additional dwarf player. It's also increases with each dwarf ally. 


Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo, 28 April 2014 - 04:31 AM.





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