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Let's Talk Bilbo


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#1 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:05 AM

med_bilbo-baggins-thfg.jpg
 

Game designers evaluated his ability as most powerful ability of all time as they gave him 3 points of threat over his head - biggest threat cost penalty ever seen in the history of LotR LCG. 

 

But let's think about what we actually get for those 3 points of additional starting threat.

A whole 1 additional card each draw phase! Pretty good from the first glance, but... game can be played in multiplayer, you know.

So, basically, the thing currently are:

In 1 player game player gets 100% card draw boost from Bilbo;

In 2 player game, the potency of this boost is halved to 50%;

In 3 player game, it's shrinked to 33%;

And finally, in a 4 player game it's no more than 25% of a boost.

 

Not so shiny anymore. More of it, you can't even choose a player to prosper - it's tied to the first player token. Even worse, Bilbo is weakling of a character by himself and requires major work around him to get him running well... and for that you need a card draw, which becomes extremely spread the more players are in the game. 

 

So, my question is... were designers too harsh when they were giving him this much of a threat cost disadvantage? Could it be justified? What kind of a errata do you think could help him? Perhaps lovering his threat cost a bit? Tweaking his ability a little? Some minor stat boost?

 

I have a couple of ideas about him of my own. Most of them revolve around his ability.

Most liberal one is changing his text into:

"At the beginning of the resource phase, choose a player to draw 1 card."

 

That'll keep his approximately at the same power level, but will at least give the player some control over what's going on with his ability. And control gives birth to decision, which is fun in my humble opinion.

 

Whadda'ya think?



#2 Mndela

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 08:12 AM

Good post....

 

My idea is:

 

Bilbo is similar than Gleowine:

 

Gl%C3%A9owine.png

 

But, the problem of Bilbo is only first player can draw, you can't chose who draws.

But, the advantatges are:

...free cost in start of game (no need 2 resources, neither need the card in hand); no need exhaust him to draw.

 

With these pros and contras, lets think:

- Bilbo only gives to you a 'peculiar' Gleowine?

 

Or better said: 3 threat points cost (the extra 3 threat points of Bilbo) are good for a 'direct card in hand' free with 2 cost? Let's see: Galadhrim Greeting cost 3 resources per -6 threat...

 

The-Galadhrim%27s-Greeting.png

 

So 1'5 resources would be 3 threat.

 

We can think about the standard cost of 3 threat points are 1'5 resources.

 

Verdict: Bilbo's hability is better than normal ranking, because his cost is cheaper: you get for free an 'hability' with cost 2 rescoures (as Gleowine, even better: you have him in first hand automaticaly); the conditions is 'raise 3 threat'... but it is cheaper than Galadhrim Greeting, where decreasing 3 threat (the penalty of Bilbo) would cost only 1'5 resources, not 2 (the cost, remember, bilbo 'gives').

 

Said as other way: Bilbo gives you 2 resources by reasing 3 threat, while Greeting only gives you 1,5 res.

 

Bilbo then is 'cheaper'. Plus, i return to say, you 'have in first hand' this card you are wanting :)

 

Finally: there are 2 good reasons for chose Bilbo, the 0'5 resource you win (diference betwen Bilbo and Galadhrim Greeting), and the 'card in first hand you want'. It needs, then another penalty: who draws the card will be the first player (you can't chose).

 

Uf! Very deep knowledges!!! :rolleyes:


Edited by Mndela, 26 April 2014 - 08:15 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#3 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 08:32 AM

Misprint. Said it from the start.
"Finally!" - Nalir the Dwarf

Nearly all of my comments are from the perspective of the single handed solo player.

#4 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 08:43 AM

The little pointy you're missing is that most of other heroes get their abilities for free. And there are more powerful effects at much lesser(or none) cost in existance, like Dain Ironfoot.

 

Lets list all of threat penalties existing to this day:

 

Beregond: +1 threat cost for being able to defend anyone with his bulking 4 defense and sparing you those 3 resources from Gondorian Shield and Spear of the Citadel. All at the cost of 1 threat.

 

Elladan+Elrohir: Both got +1 threat penalty, which is technically -1 threat bonus as they are meant to be played together and while paired, get stats worth of 1 over their threat cost + an awesome ability.

 

Elrond: +1 for being able to pay for ally of ANY sphere and increasing all heal effects, basically making Warden of Healing an overpowered sheet? For just +1 threat cost? And don't forget while it's not his printed ability - he is the only one who can work with Vilya.

 

Grima: +1 threat for being able to reduce any cost of any card of any sphere. Also triggers any doom-related effects, which will(I'm sure) grow in numbers as cycle progresses. Diminishes and shrinks in multiplayer, yes, but if all players build accordingly - will prove extremely useful. Technically +1 resource per turn, +2 if you got your keys of Orthanc out.

 

Hirluin the Fair: +1 threat for... do I even need to say anything about this hero? :lol:

 

Merry: Probably should't have listed this one, but just for the sake of it - he immediately gets his threat worth with his passive bonus just from him alone, and continues to grow with each other hobbit hero you brought along. He can even strike for pounding 4 if you're playing any of sagas. Oh, and he's also readies people.

 

Theoden: I listed Merry here, so for the sake of consistency, I'll list Theoden too here. Let's just say that he actually overworks his threat cost for each other Tactics hero in play, regardless of the player controlling him. Pairs extremely well with Merry, btw.

 

 

So, as a conclusion, I'll say: Bilbo's ability is EXTREMELY overpriced. EXTREMELY, by the terms of the own game he is taking part in.



#5 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 09:22 AM

I'm not sure who you were saying was missing the point, but I certainly wasn't. I believe he was meant to cost 6, which would have been "free" as you put it. Somewhere along the line a mistake was made and 9 was put on the card and it wasn't caught until too late.

All of your points are valid and they contribute to my belief that a printing mistake was made.
"Finally!" - Nalir the Dwarf

Nearly all of my comments are from the perspective of the single handed solo player.

#6 Glaurung

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 09:38 AM

Bilbo is cool! He give you card or free! you don't need to do nothing! and with attachments he can also be a good defender and quester. I the time of core set and first cycle he was really ok. But now sure we have many cards to choose so he value is much less now. But what you want from old small hobbit?!  


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#7 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 09:47 AM

I was obviously referring to Mndela who tried to justify the threat cost increase by comparing the costs of Galadrim's Greeting and Gleowine.

 

Glaurung, what I want from an old and small hobbit is a reasonable threat cost.



#8 Mndela

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:37 AM

He had got the unique ring very long time, so his +3 threat is reasonable ^^.

 

 

Joke.

 

Seriously, let's compare with Beravor:

 

in 2 rounds, Beravor draw one round and another she defends..., so she gets 2 cards and 2 defense points; Bilbo is same, or better! Bilbo draws 2 cards and 2 defense (twice! so 4 defense).

 

How about this approach?


Edited by Mndela, 26 April 2014 - 10:39 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#9 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:55 AM

OK, let's compare to Beravor:

 

Beravor gives the cards to the one you want, not specifically the first player.

Beravor is more efficient defender than Bilbo because she has more health. 

Beravor can also attack and quest reasonably, Bilbo can't.

By your pare Beravor with readying effect, she will give 2 cards and add her stats to something, or even apply her stats to something twice. All Bilbo can do from readying is defend additional time. Needless to repeat he is worthless at defending unless extremely buffed. Most enemies nowdays will kill him with 1 strike even without a shadowcard.

...and she is only above 1 threat over Bilbo.

 

Seriously, stop trying to justify his oversized threat cost.



#10 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:59 AM

Bilbo was not old during the time frame in which this game was supposed to take place. The saga expansions are different.
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Nearly all of my comments are from the perspective of the single handed solo player.

#11 Mndela

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 01:57 PM

I prefer Gleowine than Beravor, Beravor gives to you 2 cards, and Gleowine gives to you only 1 card. Ok, but you dont lose a hero 1 turn.

And here is Bilbo: Bilbo gives to you a 'decent' (because you not chose the player, but no problem, all players need to draw :)) Gleowine at first round, further: at setup.

Ok, you dont win each round a very 'super-hero' but better than nothing (Bera exhausted) of course it is.

 

PD: and you win 1 threat (Bera costs 10 threat; Bilbo only 9)

 

PD2: and atm hobbit trait has more advantatges (determination, short cut, pippin, hobbit sense, fast hitch...) than ranger or dunedain trait.


Edited by Mndela, 26 April 2014 - 02:00 PM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#12 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

Bilbo gives 1 card to a first player. Beravor gives 2 cards to a player in need. You might not need Bilbo at all at some turns, so his precious 2 defense and health go to waste. Also damaging trecheries and effects, don't forget about them, Bilbo is very fragile, he's no Frodo.

 

Bilbo's card draw is decent only in single player. It becomes worthless the more players are in the game. I wouldn't call a 2 card boost to a needing player "nothing". Well-timed drawn right card could change the game. And it's more probable when you're drawing two cards from the needed deck than 1 card from deck of first player.

 

PD: You don't win anything, you lose 3 threat to his actual stats of combined 6.

 

PD2: As I said before - Bilbo needs a lot to work around him to become usable. This requires time and, once again, good draw, which he can't provide if there is multiple players in the game.



#13 tacomen253

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 08:07 PM

Bilbo was not old during the time frame in which this game was supposed to take place. The saga expansions are different.

He was not old in terms of Hobbits  ;) .

 

I have never been a fan of the Bilbo card, to the point where I have never even used it before. In terms of a Lore hero with defense he is actually not that great compared to someone like Denethor who has more hp, defense, and less threat. Also to consider him for questing or attacking is sort of a joke I think. Maybe I would use him in a multiplayer game, oddly only for his diminishing ability though. I would never use him in a solo game. So on this one I have to agree with MyNeighbour, Bilbo would be more appealing if he had a lower threat.



#14 kyrie

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:31 AM

Bilbo is way over-costed. Should be 6 at the most. Unless they gave him different stats, as his 2 defense is wasted. Beravor is always better, unless playing a mono-lore mono-hobbit deck. They really messed up him, seeing how he was such a influential character in the books. Frodo is way more powerful than him, and he did not even have the ring at the time of the events of this game (in between hobbit and Lord of the Rings story). They should release a new Bilbo to replace this useless one.

 

I realize this is really negative, but I think this card is pretty bad (though not as bad as poor ole' spirit Pippin).


"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

 


#15 monkeyrama

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:45 AM

In solo play Bilbo is very useful. The fact that his ability is passive, and he has a high-ish threat cost despite his weak stats means that he can be safely caught in webs or stirring up local trouble and you don't lose much punch while still gaining the card. If I remember correctly, he'll even gain the card when poisoned in the Hobbit spider quest since it's a passive effect. With only very minimal extra card draw you can keep a good engine going for a deck.

But in multiplayer, he is much less good. I've always viewed him as a solo game hero, much like Brand is pretty much multiplayer only.



#16 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:50 AM

Caught in the Webs does not requires a high threat hero, it requires a highest threat player to choose 1 of his heroes to attach CitW to.

 

Well, you can't use Bilbo in Flies and Spiders because there is a Baggins sphere Bilbo already.



#17 monkeyrama

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:54 AM

Argh! So stupid!! Of course. Damn, well, he would be good...

 

I didn't mean with the web that it would automatically go on him, but I wouldn't shed any tears if it did. :)



#18 Noccus

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:15 AM

If they released some attachment for him, like they did for faramir with the spoiled wingfoot, he'd still have a chance to get used in multi-player. Maybe his magic ring? He still had it at this time in the game.
How about it lowering your threat as you turn invisible or something?
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#19 7theye

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:41 AM

Bilbo was a mistake I think. They meant for it to say 6 but no one caught on.

#20 Mndela

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 09:28 AM

Ring attachment like:

 

Attach to a Bilbo hero.

 

Response: after Bilbo defenses one attack, exhaust 'Ring' to raise 1 threat and reduce enemy's attack to 0.

 

 

It could be good. Shadows arent cancelled, if not it would be over-powered.


Edited by Mndela, 27 April 2014 - 09:29 AM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round





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