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Need help building a Nurgle Sorcerer


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#21 BrotharTearer

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:44 AM

He should have had a good rating force field. Could have saved that fate point.



#22 Magellan

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:08 AM

Well, there's gamey, but when you can use it to psychically dodge attacks from a tank's main gun it makes sense in-character as well.

I'm pretty sure dodge distance is based on your agility bonus, rather than your movement.


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The Magos says he has no crude emotions to control

Just an iron fist, an iron will and an iron-banded soul


#23 Terraneaux

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:57 AM

Technically it is, but it's clear it's supposed to be based off of your short move difference.  It says if you don't have enough agility to move outside of the area, you can't dodge, but agility on its own is not the determiner of movement - size and things like jump packs play a role.  These books are typically not proofread very well, so interpretation is kind of an important part of these games.


Edited by Terraneaux, 11 June 2014 - 11:58 AM.


#24 Traejun

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:13 PM

Nurgle Sorcerers are awesome as support type characters that are also quite capable of ruining everyone's day.  Played along side one in a long term BC campaign.  The rest of the group was comprised of my Word Bearers Dark Apostle (prior to the Tome, we just monkey'd it a bit to make it work), an Alpha Legion forsaken, Heretek, Apostate and Psyker.  The Heretek and Nurgle Sorcerer ended up being my closest allies - although I did end up killing the sorc when his goals ended up at odds with my own - he wanted to turn a world in the Koronus expanse into a plague planet... while I wanted to free (read: enslave) the population and build a massive edifice to chaos to use as a site for the coup de gras ritual that was supposed to turn me into a daemon prince - it didn't.  

 

The sorcerer himself was very very handy.  Not nearly as powerful as most others, but nigh impossible to kill and with all kinds of sexy powers that saved our collective tooshies on more than one occasion.  He was played as a true "grandfather" archtype who felt like he was actually helping free people from the pain the corpse Emperor kept them in. 

 

Summation: You won't be as straight up killy as other sorcerers, but you'll have all the cool factor... and more bile.



#25 Magellan

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:44 PM

Technically it is, but it's clear it's supposed to be based off of your short move difference.  It says if you don't have enough agility to move outside of the area, you can't dodge, but agility on its own is not the determiner of movement - size and things like jump packs play a role.  These books are typically not proofread very well, so interpretation is kind of an important part of these games.

Aye, and you can't expect everyone else to go with the same interpretations as you, which is why I'm pointing out what the book tells us. For example, I go with agility bonus, both because I try to avoid unnecessary house ruling, and because (as it has been pointed out in this thread) it's incredibly easy to cheese movement up.


The Magos says he has no crude emotions to control

Just an iron fist, an iron will and an iron-banded soul


#26 Terraneaux

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:15 PM

What do you do if a small character (who, say, has an agility bonus of 5, but can only move 3 meters in a short move) gets caught in a blast and the edge of the area is 4m away?

 

That's why I think mine is more logically consistent.



#27 Magellan

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:05 PM

Then I let him move up to his agility bonus in meters, clearing the blast radius. Zero deliberation needed.

 

You are absolutely free to use whatever house rules you want. What I have an issue with are people that act like it's a given that everyone else should use their house rules.


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The Magos says he has no crude emotions to control

Just an iron fist, an iron will and an iron-banded soul


#28 Fgdsfg

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 02:47 AM

Technically it is, but it's clear it's supposed to be based off of your short move difference.  It says if you don't have enough agility to move outside of the area, you can't dodge, but agility on its own is not the determiner of movement - size and things like jump packs play a role.  These books are typically not proofread very well, so interpretation is kind of an important part of these games.

I disagree. It would have been a very small difference to word it in such a way that it was a Half-Move Action, but they instead settled for a range equal to the Agility Bonus.

RAI is always debatable, but in order to discuss anything in a constructive fashion, we can only debate RAW - everything else is house rules, and should be pointed out as such whenever possible, such as "We choose to do it <X>, even though RAW says <Y>, because <Z>".
 
The reason for the Agility Bonus being the range is likely because of the drastically different movement ranges some characters have, while Agility Bonus is not just movement, but also reaction time. How you get out of a blast radius may differ greatly depending on circumstance - it's not just a matter of daftly walking out of the affected area. It could mean throwing yourself to the side, ducking behind cover, simply dashing out of range, and so on and so forth.

There is no reason someone with, say, Quadruped, should be able to do these things better just because he has more legs than you. His reaction time doesn't get better. He's not more mobile when it comes to jumping behind covers. He doesn't turn around faster, and the explosives doesn't explode on top of him any slower than it explodes for anyone else; the time units are exactly the same. He simply moves faster when walking or running.

Not only is it RAW that it is Agility Bonus, not Half-Move, but it also makes perfect sense.

What do you do if a small character (who, say, has an agility bonus of 5, but can only move 3 meters in a short move) gets caught in a blast and the edge of the area is 4m away?

That's why I think mine is more logically consistent.

He reacts quickly to the incoming grenade, and summoning all his strength, he deftly jumps out of the radius before the grenade explodes. His actual movement ranges have nothing to do with his ability to Dodge, any more than your Movement Range affects your ability to Jump with Acrobatics.

Edited by Fgdsfg, 12 June 2014 - 02:50 AM.

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These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#29 Terraneaux

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:32 PM

No, I don't think it makes perfect sense.  The clear intent of the movement rules was to make, for example, larger things move faster.  This makes sense, larger legs and all.  There's no reason that characters should magically move faster when being shot at, otherwise they should have the option to do it all the time.  The movement from Dodge is not a jump or anything like that; it's just a hustle on foot, as near as I can tell.



#30 Fgdsfg

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:03 PM

No, I don't think it makes perfect sense.  The clear intent of the movement rules was to make, for example, larger things move faster.  This makes sense, larger legs and all.  There's no reason that characters should magically move faster when being shot at, otherwise they should have the option to do it all the time.  The movement from Dodge is not a jump or anything like that; it's just a hustle on foot, as near as I can tell.

 

First of all, "clear intent"; how so? Secondly, you are talking about movement rules - no-one else is talking about movement rules. Movement rules and Dodge are functionally and narratively different.

Thirdly, you are trying to equate a Reaction (Dodge) with a Half-Action (Half Movement Action), while these are clearly meant to be completely different rules used to narrate functionally different situations. Would you, by that same logic, allow a player to use a Reaction to perform a Half-Action? Because that's what you're saying.

And finally, a Dodge is a Dodge. It's not "just a hustle on foot". It's the act of dodging an incoming blow or projectile of any kind, and when it comes to area of effect weapons, the distance you may Dodge is limited by your Agility Bonus. Not your Carry Weight Limit. Not your Psy Rating. Not your Half-Action Movement Range.

Exactly how that Dodge is achieved, whether it's by ducking behind cover, stopping dead in your tracks as you run towards your next location, jump out of the area as flames tinges your toes - that's all in the narrative. A Ratling may manage to make a backflip into cover, even with his stubby legs. An Ogryn might not react fast enough, despite his height and stature.

Visualizing this will help when you realize that even though the system is turn-based, it's all assumed to be happening at the same time. A quadruped centaur in no way gets to "hustle on foot" just fast enough to outrun an entire explosion. No-one outruns an explosion of any kind. That's why they're called explosions. They explode. It's not something you just move out of. You react to the change in battlefield conditions. The incoming grenade, the psyker's manifestation, or the rocket-launcher just turned in your direction.

The act of dodging with Dodge has nothing to do with your Movement scores at all. The "clear intent of the movement rules" has nothing to do with Dodging, whether someone is large or small, nor does anyone "magically move faster". They react faster and are able to act on it faster. Which is what the Agility Bonus is all about, unless you want to argue that Initiative as a function of Agility doesn't make sense, and should also be equal to Movement scores, because "it's about moving really quick".


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#31 BrotharTearer

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:12 PM

What Fgdsfg said.

 

Summation: You won't be as straight up killy as other sorcerers, but you'll have all the cool factor... and more bile.

 

Best way of being tough as a psyker is to not get hit in the first place (high Perception and Precog Dodge, force fields and Abhorrent Ward/Blasphemy Made Flesh—my three favourite ways of making my psykers "tough", I don't actually have them wear any armor). Of course, if you do get hit, high TB and True Grit is the best way ever to survive longer. That talent is actually too good with high enough TB. The RT version is more balanced.


Edited by BrotharTearer, 13 June 2014 - 06:13 PM.





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