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Conjurer's Image Tokens


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#1 Zerogearx

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:56 PM

My play group has been discussing these tokens during our last game.

 

The rulebook states that the Conjurer's Image Token is treated as a hero.

Does this mean that it can perform hero actions such as searching, opening doors, and reviving other heroes?

If the conjurer is knocked out, can these "heroes" perform any actions at all?

 

Thanks.



#2 sigmazero13

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:40 PM

Based on the later class cards, I think they just sit there, but block LOS and movement.  Maybe they can move (I can't remember all the cards), but I'm pretty sure they can't attack, as they don't have any dice to roll (and being able to use the Mage's weapon would be far too strong, I think, especially if you had multiple images).



#3 Zaltyre

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

My play group has been discussing these tokens during our last game.

 

The rulebook states that the Conjurer's Image Token is treated as a hero.

Does this mean that it can perform hero actions such as searching, opening doors, and reviving other heroes?

If the conjurer is knocked out, can these "heroes" perform any actions at all?

 

Thanks.

I would assume that based on other rulings for things "treated like hero figures," it's treated like a hero for the purposes of OL cards, monster attacks/abilities, and hero abilities, but not for anything else. It is not itself a hero, and is not even a familiar- and is therefore not even granted the 1 move action per turn- nor is it granted an activation like a familiar. It is my understanding that the image tokens can only do the things specified by your skill cards, for example, "during your turn, you may spend a movement point to move an image token one space." They're very useful for measuring range and line of sight, but not for performing hero actions. If they could regularly perform actions, cards like Prismatic Assault (http://descent2e.wik...ismatic_Assault) would be not as awesome to buy.


Edited by Zaltyre, 25 April 2014 - 02:36 PM.


#4 Steve-O

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:50 AM

I would assume that based on other rulings for things "treated like hero figures," it's treated like a hero for the purposes of OL cards, monster attacks/abilities, and hero abilities, but not for anything else.


Exactly correct.

This question seems to come up every time a new type of token appears that can be "treated like a hero," and I'm not really sure why. The rules for anything being "treated like a hero" are already defined, as above.  A token treated as a hero counts for OL cards, hero abilities and monster attacks/abilities.  Nothing else.

 

No ability to perform actions is implied, even the rules associated with being a figure are not expressly included.  If the token is not treated as a figure, it shouldn't block LoS or movement unless it has additional rules saying that it does.

 

Familiars are defined as being treated like figures (sometimes), and the rulebook says any familiar treated like a figure is also treated as a hero.  Therefore they block LoS and movement (because they're figures) and are also "treated as a hero."  But this says nothing of what actions the familiar can take.  That's defined separately.

 

All that being said, the SoN rulebook says that the conjurer's tokens are to be treated as "hero figures," so like familiars they would inherit the properties of a figure as well as the "treated like a hero" rules above.  But they don't count as heroes for anything else, and they don't gain the ability to activate on their own or perform any actions.  The only time an image token will "do anything" is when the Conjurer uses a skill he owns that allows one or more of his images to do something, as defined on the skill.



#5 Aaediyen

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:33 AM

So we had our first play session with a conjurer last night. I am playing the said conjurer and so I want to be doing it right. I had been flipping search tokens and objectives with my images. The overlord still pounded us pretty good last night but that is beside the point. I'm going to start playing them right and not use them to flip tokens ect.

Anyway my questions are follows:

You may discard any number of image tokens at any time during your turn. You may spend 1 movement point during your turn to move an image token 1 space.

This is on the channeling card. Does this mean I can only move an image one space per turn or can i I move it four spaces if I use all of my movements if I have four. It doesn't seem to take an action. I could just stand around while I move around without using an action, attack with an image every round then rest with the final action every round.


Action.png: Exhaust this card. For each image token on the map, you may either move the image token up to your speed or perform an attack with a Magic weapon.

Bringing this up since its the first ability I bought. It seems a little expensive to me with 3 fatigue and an action. Ideal scenario for me so far is to make 2 images the first being free, and the second costing one. I have 3 fatigue left and I use this. I can attack with my images once each then once myself. This seems pretty expensive for one extra attack and all four of my fatigue are gone. Can anyone think of any other good uses?

Edited by Aaediyen, 27 April 2014 - 10:54 AM.


#6 Steve-O

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:47 PM

You may discard any number of image tokens at any time during your turn. You may spend 1 movement point during your turn to move an image token 1 space.

This is on the channeling card. Does this mean I can only move an image one space per turn or can i I move it four spaces if I use all of my movements if I have four. It doesn't seem to take an action. I could just stand around while I move around without using an action, attack with an image every round then rest with the final action every round.


You can spend more than one MP per turn if you have the MPs to spend. You're basically moving the image instead of yourself.

Action.png: Exhaust this card. For each image token on the map, you may either move the image token up to your speed or perform an attack with a Magic weapon.

Bringing this up since its the first ability I bought. It seems a little expensive to me with 3 fatigue and an action. Ideal scenario for me so far is to make 2 images the first being free, and the second costing one. I have 3 fatigue left and I use this. I can attack with my images once each then once myself. This seems pretty expensive for one extra attack and all four of my fatigue are gone. Can anyone think of any other good uses?


The economy of this game is actions. Particularly attacks, when it comes to fighting. With this skill, you spend 1 action (and 3 fatigue) to gain X actions, where X is the number of images you have. That is nothing short of amazing, and the cost is well within reason for what you're getting out of it.

Combine it with the "spend your own MPs to move images" above, and you can maximize the number of attacks you're laying down to keep the board clear of monsters. Particularly if your magic weapon is ranged (as most of them are), you can use your images to clear a hallway without even exposing yourself.

#7 Zaltyre

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 10:42 PM

Not to dredge up an older topic, but I just got a response from Nathan at FFG regarding Image tokens. I asked if they were immune to conditions, and, if not, when they would roll for things like "poison."

 

His response was:

 

"Image tokens are not immune to conditions. However, after reviewing all of the conditions, the only one that would really affect an image token is Weakened when the image token is attacked. Image tokens do not have turns, actions, or attacks."
 
This ruling makes sense with what we've been discussing with image tokens- they don't have their own turns, so they definitely can't do things like open doors. The image tokens don't do any actions on their own, they only move when the conjurer makes them, or are used as points to measure LOS and range from.
 
(However, since they're not immune to conditions, if you can get an image token to be next to a burning hero when that hero ends his turn, you can destroy it and deal damage to the conjurer- good to know!)


#8 amoshias

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 03:29 PM

 


This question seems to come up every time a new type of token appears that can be "treated like a hero," and I'm not really sure why.


 

The why seems pretty obvious here - this is a basic part of the rules, used over and over again, that is not clearly spelled out in this game's terrible, terrible rules set.



#9 Zaltyre

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 04:43 PM

 

 


This question seems to come up every time a new type of token appears that can be "treated like a hero," and I'm not really sure why.


 

The why seems pretty obvious here - this is a basic part of the rules, used over and over again, that is not clearly spelled out in this game's terrible, terrible rules set.

 

To be fair, the rules (at least regarding familiars treated as figures) are spelled out very well in the FAQ. I specifically asked about conditions because I didn't expect the tokens to be immune, but wasn't sure how something like "stun" would apply to a token that doesn't take actions.



#10 herrada

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 12:48 AM

What happens with the image tokens if the conjurer is defeated/knocked out?

 

Regarding the Rules for "something treated like a hero" where exactly do I find this section? Do you mean the "Familiars treated as figures" Section in the D2E rule book?



#11 Zaltyre

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 10:34 AM

What happens with the image tokens if the conjurer is defeated/knocked out?

 

Regarding the Rules for "something treated like a hero" where exactly do I find this section? Do you mean the "Familiars treated as figures" Section in the D2E rule book?

I would assume the image tokens stay where they are, since I know of nothing that says they disappear. It would be rather wasteful for the OL to destroy them while the conjurer was knocked out, because the wound and fatigue wouldn't do anything extra. You don't refer to the familiar section of the rulebook, because image tokens are not familiars. They're just tokens treated like figures. 

 

The conjurer's skills say that the tokens can be discarded at any time during their turn.


Edited by Zaltyre, 16 June 2014 - 10:35 AM.


#12 griton

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 11:10 AM

You don't refer to the familiar section of the rulebook, because image tokens are not familiars. They're just tokens treated like figures. 

That's the section that FFG has generally used for all things "treated like figures". If not explicitly, then they have generally (I can't think of when they haven't, but it's possible) followed the rules listed there for clarifications regarding non-familiars treated as figures.



#13 Zaltyre

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 12:41 PM

 

You don't refer to the familiar section of the rulebook, because image tokens are not familiars. They're just tokens treated like figures. 

That's the section that FFG has generally used for all things "treated like figures". If not explicitly, then they have generally (I can't think of when they haven't, but it's possible) followed the rules listed there for clarifications regarding non-familiars treated as figures.

 

If you're referring to the bit about things "treated as figures" and therefore affected by "monster attacks, hero/monster abilities, and OL cards that target a hero," I agree with you. However, I was stressing that image tokens are distinct from any familiar- whether treated as a figure or not- because unlike familiars, image tokens never activate. They are not granted an automatic single move action, nor can they take any actions whatsoever. They are purely instruments of the conjurer (usually for purposes of targeting.) The only things an image token can do that is not the direct result of a conjurer skill is make an attribute test and/ or defend an attack.


Edited by Zaltyre, 16 June 2014 - 12:41 PM.


#14 Steve-O

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 06:03 PM

What happens with the image tokens if the conjurer is defeated/knocked out?


Nothing. Although since the Conjuror himself is not able to use any abilities other than the Stand Up action while KO'd, the images won't be doing much of anything until the Conjuror is revived.

As Zaltyre pointed out, there's also not much point in the OL attacking them since the Conjuror can't take any additional damage while KO'd as he's already maxed out. This could turn into a particularly cruel way to "kick 'em back down" as soon as the Conjuror stands up though - nix an image from around the corner before he can do anything... >=)

 

Regarding the Rules for "something treated like a hero" where exactly do I find this section? Do you mean the "Familiars treated as figures" Section in the D2E rule book?


In the rulebooks themselves, the properties of "being treated as a hero" are only described in the context of familiars (in the core book) and allies (in LoR.) However, when people started asking FFG exactly what "treated as a hero" meant for NPC tokens and other non-familiar, non-allies, the answer was as given above, and has been consistently so ever since, as far as I know.

As somebody else said, the rules are there, they just aren't spelled out very clearly. FFG has been known to have this sort of problem with their rulebooks.

Edited by Steve-O, 16 June 2014 - 06:05 PM.

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#15 Zaltyre

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 06:38 AM

 

What happens with the image tokens if the conjurer is defeated/knocked out?


Nothing. Although since the Conjuror himself is not able to use any abilities other than the Stand Up action while KO'd, the images won't be doing much of anything until the Conjuror is revived.

As Zaltyre pointed out, there's also not much point in the OL attacking them since the Conjuror can't take any additional damage while KO'd as he's already maxed out. This could turn into a particularly cruel way to "kick 'em back down" as soon as the Conjuror stands up though - nix an image from around the corner before he can do anything... >=)

Especially since the Conjurer suffers a wound + a fatigue when a token suffers either, and the Conjurer is likely to be out of fatigue immediately after standing up. A Barghest could "howl" and do 2 wounds * number of tokens, assuming they fail the will test. 



#16 Zaltyre

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:52 AM

On the conjurer's "channeling" skill card it says "during your turn, you may spend 1 movement point to move an image token 1 space." However, there is no mention of exhausting or using the card.

 

How have you all been reading this?

 

A) You may spend 1 movement point to move a single image token 1 space, once per turn?

B) You may spend 1 movement point to move an image token 1 space, once per image token per turn?

C) You may spend 1 movement point to move an image token 1 space, and may spend any or all of your movement points this way?


Edited by Zaltyre, 27 June 2014 - 09:56 AM.


#17 sigmazero13

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 10:57 AM

If it doesn't exhaust the card, I would say it's C.



#18 Whitewing

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 11:07 AM

You don't exhaust the card at all when you do it. The correct answer is C.



#19 Zaltyre

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:21 PM

I was concerned that the wording was similar to recovering fatigue with surges on attacks (which is limited to one), but after looking at that spot in the rules, it's written as "up to one," so I think you guys are right. Thanks!


Edited by Zaltyre, 27 June 2014 - 12:21 PM.


#20 sigmazero13

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:47 PM

Well that, and with attacks the general rule of thumb is each surge ability can only be used once.  Granted, the recover surge isn't technically a surge ability, it basically acts just like one, and in a way could just be considered a surge ability that all attacks have.






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