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Inquisitor Assigned to a Kill Team


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#61 ak-73

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:09 AM

To be honest, I have a hard time remembering how we got from my statement that an Inquisitor has no command authority over the Deathwatch in FFG's version of the game to argueing about different meanings of the term authority. It honestly sounds as if you're just dragging this one out. Didn't we already agree on the core of the issue here?

 

You're a bit too suspicious. As I said from the start: my take on is that in practice the difference between formal, direct authority and what the Inquisition got in DW is mostly virtual.

 

 

An Inquisitor showing up and demanding a Kill-team to support them. Being able to command the Deathwatch to send support instead of having to hope that a request is granted.

 

If in 99% of all reasonable cases, the request is granted, the difference (beyond tone) is slim. Tone is indeed a difference. In DW, an Inquisitor can't both the Deathwatch Marines around according to his whims.

 

 

Beyond that, I have put my (simple) blog online:

http://40kroleplay.weebly.com/

It's pretty much at its infant stages. Your squad rules are already online though.

Regarding those rules...

 

What I am missing in the current iteration is rules for suppressing squads and flanking/encirclement. Nothing breaks morale as quickly as incoming fire from opposing directions.

Also, one thought I was having was further distinction between fatalities and casualties because a heavily wounded squaddie that the squad tries to save might have good dramatic potential. :D

 

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#62 Lynata

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 06:00 AM

You're a bit too suspicious. As I said from the start: my take on is that in practice the difference between formal, direct authority and what the Inquisition got in DW is mostly virtual. [...] If in 99% of all reasonable cases, the request is granted, the difference (beyond tone) is slim. Tone is indeed a difference.

 

Ultimately, that makes the Deathwatch no different from any other Space Marine Chapter with a localised mission. You've removed reliability, and thus the very reason for its existence - at least as per the Thorian Sourcebook.

I'm not debating that it has its own raison d'être in FFG's version of the setting (which is even explained in the core rulebook), just placing a reminder that it's different, and that these differences may have consequences on interaction and mission outcome. Beyond that, it's simply a matter of personal preferences (i.e. how independent you want your Marines to be).

 

[edit] Following some reflection on my own experiences with the DW RPG, I can actually see why FFG may have opted for this approach. For better or worse, Inquisitors have been left out of the product as playable characters, but an element of investigation, planning and social interaction is (I think) crucial to prevent the game from becoming a boring dungeon grind, so it makes only sense to shift all this stuff to the Marines, and in doing so shrink the Inquisition's own involvement.

I don't yet want to say that my group's approach (an NPC Inquisitor) was a mistake, but I'm beginning to have some doubt. Let's see what the coming sessions hold, I guess.

 

Beyond that, I have put my (simple) blog online:

http://40kroleplay.weebly.com/

It's pretty much at its infant stages. Your squad rules are already online though.

 

Eep! They're not yet in the stage I'd consider them "publishable" - though I have been looking for playtests regarding the basic idea ...

 

Thanks for the link either way!

 

What I am missing in the current iteration is rules for suppressing squads and flanking/encirclement. Nothing breaks morale as quickly as incoming fire from opposing directions.

Also, one thought I was having was further distinction between fatalities and casualties because a heavily wounded squaddie that the squad tries to save might have good dramatic potential. :D

 

Yes to both! Suppression (both from as well as against the squad) is definitely coming. Flanking/encirclement sounds a bit more difficult in that of course it would have to be a maneuver available to the squad as well, but more importantly I'm not sure how to actually pull this off ruleswise. Perhaps a special Test for moving across the battlefield, with failure risking being caught off-guard by the enemy?

 

The dramatic potential for casualties is a good idea, thanks. :) In terms of mechanics, it could be as simple as introducing a threshold of "Negative Wounds" (-5?) that decide between incapacitation and death ...?


Edited by Lynata, 06 May 2014 - 06:05 AM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#63 Alrik Vas

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 06:01 AM

Well, let me do a little bit of backpedaling.  I hate it too, but I've thought about it some and come to different coclusion.

 

I was reading about the Sabbat Crusade and it mentions this warmaster who had to cajole the Navy and the generals under his command into fighting the damn war the way he wanted to.  The push was getting stalled and he needed these guys to move it or lose it, they had to risk.  The material praises the guy for being a sly talker and awesome negotiator...and he's the fricken warmaster.  Bolter rounds for anyone who shows dissent, right?  Well, it looks like even the commissars were't touching this one, because nobody wanted to be the reason the Crusade fell apart.

 

When it comes down to it, authority is one thing, but convncing people is another.

 

I think the same is true for inquisitors.  They aren't inside the command structure, but they have crazy authority.  However, they still need to convince those around them to do things for them.

 

"This is all I will ask of you", "In the name of the Emperor!" and "There is much for us to gain if we work together" are different ways to go about it, and they all affect an Inquisitor's influence for a reason.  They don't have any army, they have to get specialized groups in armies to do the dirty work their usual henchmen can't handle.

 

They can flash the rosette, but a space marine can just point to the relic bolter in his hand and shrug.  Does he though?  Inquisitors can bring a lot to the table, and it's often better to work with them than make an enemy with a 12th dan in Red Tape Jutsu

 

So the authority they have, while real, is discountable if their reasons for needing your aid aren't great enough to pry the resources free, or if they can't do anything reasonably negative to you for refusing.  Sometimes, the big bad with the spy network needs to bark up a different tree.


Edited by Alrik Vas, 06 May 2014 - 06:03 AM.

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#64 Lynata

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:55 AM

I think the same is true for inquisitors.  They aren't inside the command structure, but they have crazy authority.  However, they still need to convince those around them to do things for them.

 

That's what I've been argueing, though - in GW's version of the setting, the Inquisitors are inside the Deathwatch's command structure, as the Ordo Xenos owns them.

 

Otherwise you'd just have the same relationship as an Inquisitor has with a normal Space Marine Chapter - which is where the convincing part comes in.

 

Now, I can't commend anything about the Sabbat Crusade novels, as I haven't read them, though as far as I'm aware Warmasters can either be appointed by the High Lords, or are elected by Imperial forces allying on-site. Needless to say, this would influence how solid their command is, meaning whether they have been vested with this authority by the High Lords, who act as the voice of the God-Emperor Himself, or if he/she is commanding the warzone simply by way of tolerance.

 

Alternatively, it's simply a thing of the "Abnettverse".

Come to think of it, Dan Abnett wrote a lot of background for this RPG, too, so maybe there's a connection here?


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#65 ak-73

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:14 AM

Ultimately, that makes the Deathwatch no different from any other Space Marine Chapter with a localised mission. You've removed reliability, and thus the very reason for its existence - at least as per the Thorian Sourcebook.

I'm not debating that it has its own raison d'être in FFG's version of the setting (which is even explained in the core rulebook), just placing a reminder that it's different, and that these differences may have consequences on interaction and mission outcome. Beyond that, it's simply a matter of personal preferences (i.e. how independent you want your Marines to be).

 

[edit] Following some reflection on my own experiences with the DW RPG, I can actually see why FFG may have opted for this approach. For better or worse, Inquisitors have been left out of the product as playable characters, but an element of investigation, planning and social interaction is (I think) crucial to prevent the game from becoming a boring dungeon grind, so it makes only sense to shift all this stuff to the Marines, and in doing so shrink the Inquisition's own involvement.

I don't yet want to say that my group's approach (an NPC Inquisitor) was a mistake, but I'm beginning to have some doubt. Let's see what the coming sessions hold, I guess.

 

I can see both variants working, provided that an Inquisitor who leads kill-team debates his investigations with the kill-team members (so as to involve their players). I would run it a lot like Shadowrun with its Etiquette(Street) tests. The point being that since only one players has investigative skills micro-managing the investigations leads to side-lined players. Instead, the Inquisitor needs to select the right Acolytes for the job, they gather the information and the players need to piece the puzzle together as informations are trickling in.

 

As for authority, I don't see its need in the quote you provided. What I am reading there is that the Inquisition needs anti-xeno specialists on constant stand-by.

 

 

Eep! They're not yet in the stage I'd consider them "publishable" - though I have been looking for playtests regarding the basic idea ...

 

Thanks for the link either way!

 

What's an "Eep"? :D

Alright, I marked them as Beta in the meantime. Is that okay?

 

 


Yes to both! Suppression (both from as well as against the squad) is definitely coming. Flanking/encirclement sounds a bit more difficult in that of course it would have to be a maneuver available to the squad as well, but more importantly I'm not sure how to actually pull this off ruleswise. Perhaps a special Test for moving across the battlefield, with failure risking being caught off-guard by the enemy?

 

The dramatic potential for casualties is a good idea, thanks. :) In terms of mechanics, it could be as simple as introducing a threshold of "Negative Wounds" (-5?) that decide between incapacitation and death ...?

 

 

The old WFB 3E had rules for flanking, I believe. The rule could be as simple as: "If two enemy squads (or entities with a comparable output) attack from an angle >= 120°, the squad must make a morale test with -X. If the angle is >= 150°, the test is at -Y."

 

The idea behind this is that being flanked generally means generally your squad members have cover only against one enemy squad only because of the angles (bad enough) - and your withdrawal route is being threatened. Encirclement means you have been cut off and can't withdraw easily on top of it. That's why they're both terrible for morale. Which is why you have frontlines in war after all (each side avoiding that). And salients are both a risk as well as opportunity.

 

I would make incapacitation rare. For drama purposes. Constant drama is no drama but routine. So incapacitation is better a rare occurrence where your PCs might want to try to rescue that wounded and screaming squaddie that fights on their side. As such, I would rather recommend this being triggered by exactly 0 wounds only. Or something like that.

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#66 Lynata

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:48 AM

As for authority, I don't see its need in the quote you provided. What I am reading there is that the Inquisition needs anti-xeno specialists on constant stand-by.

 

How do you read that into "avoiding dangerous entanglements from involving other Imperial forces"?

Have you read the entire section as I recommended?

 

What's an "Eep"? :D

Alright, I marked them as Beta in the meantime. Is that okay?

 

Oh, just an attempt at conveying an expression of shock/surprise.  :unsure:

Beta sounds good, though, thank you. Or better yet: "Work in Progress"?

 

The old WFB 3E had rules for flanking, I believe. The rule could be as simple as: "If two enemy squads (or entities with a comparable output) attack from an angle >= 120°, the squad must make a morale test with -X. If the angle is >= 150°, the test is at -Y."

 

That sounds a bit complicated to calculate. I wouldn't want people to need a map for this stuff!  :D

Still, it could probably be simplified into an effect that occurs once the Squad comes under attack "from opposite directions" - with the effect being the unit either being suppressed (as they hunker down in confusion) if exposed to ranged attacks, and/or receiving a penalty to WS/BS and Willpower if assaulted in close combat ... which increases the likelihood of them breaking in one of the following turns... how would that sound?

 

Alternatively, instead of suppression (which would then remain its own effect), ranged attacks from both directions could neutralise cover somehow, either by halving cover bonuses, or by providing a flat BS bonus to the attacker. I have not yet decided how Squads might make use of cover, if at all. *makes mental note*

 

I would make incapacitation rare. For drama purposes. Constant drama is no drama but routine. So incapacitation is better a rare occurrence where your PCs might want to try to rescue that wounded and screaming squaddie that fights on their side. As such, I would rather recommend this being triggered by exactly 0 wounds only. Or something like that.

 

Exactly 0 Wounds sounds as if it'd be way too rare to happen. On the other hand, a range of up to -5 (a total of 6 damage points) might happen too often. How about -3? And -6 for Squaddies with Unnatural Toughness.

 

I would then leave it to the GM how they actually want to wing it - being incapacitated may just as well have the Squaddie pass out, but be revive-able later on, or the PCs would simply not notice this casualty in the heat of battle. Screaming for help is something the GM might have an incapacitated Squaddie do whenever they think it'd make for a "good moment". :)

 

... damn, starting to move seriously OT here.  :ph34r: Still, thanks for providing some food for thoughts!


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#67 ak-73

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:44 PM

 

As for authority, I don't see its need in the quote you provided. What I am reading there is that the Inquisition needs anti-xeno specialists on constant stand-by.

 

How do you read that into "avoiding dangerous entanglements from involving other Imperial forces"?

Have you read the entire section as I recommended?

 

Glanced over it and it's still not clear. Especially since it's not clear why fiercely independent Astartes should cease being so once seconded to the DW.

 

 

Oh, just an attempt at conveying an expression of shock/surprise.  :unsure:

Beta sounds good, though, thank you. Or better yet: "Work in Progress"?

 

Oh, I am just teasing you.

Changed.

 

 

... damn, starting to move seriously OT here.  :ph34r: Still, thanks for providing some food for thoughts!

 

We can debate this on the blog or anywhere else.

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#68 Lynata

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:34 PM

Glanced over it and it's still not clear.

 

The entire chapter is talking about how "in practice, the Inquisition must be more political than its mandate allows" and how it must "rely on other parts of the Imperium" to support them - and it's not clear to you why it ends with the Inquisition preferably dealing with a threat using its own resources whenever possible...?

 

Well, in that case I suppose I've run out of options to convince you.

 

Especially since it's not clear why fiercely independent Astartes should cease being so once seconded to the DW.

 

See, that's (part of) the very nature of the original Deathwatch - their vows bind them to the Inquisition, and they are sworn on their honour to obey the Ordo Xenos' ruling. The firm integration of the Deathwatch into the Ordo's own hierarchy (which, as the Index Astartes notes, goes both ways*) ensures that they instantly accept the Inquisitor as their commander, when normally an Inquisitor approaching an independent Chapter would have to persuade, to cajole, or to threaten to receive the support they need, as the Space Marines normally consider themselves above the Inquisition's jurisdiction, even though they  officially aren't.

 

(*: Captain Artemis is a good example .. a Deathwatch veteran who is now leading a Kill-team of human operatives after having replaced his commanding Inquisitor)

 

Or, in short, what's independent is - as the source actually says - not the Astartes themselves, but the Chapters they belong to. That is a small, but in this case critical difference. What GW's Deathwatch does is simply removing these Chapters out of the equation, and integrating a portion of its warriors into an entity that is more reliable to the Inquisition.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#69 ak-73

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:50 PM

Well I read it talking about speed also. Ultimately, it all comes down to choice anyway.

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#70 Alrik Vas

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:11 PM

Yes, Lynata, I was caught up in normal inquisitors and normal astartes.

 

Though, Ordo Hereticus would have issues trying to command a Deathwatch kill team, wouldn't they?



#71 Lynata

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 06:21 AM

Though, Ordo Hereticus would have issues trying to command a Deathwatch kill team, wouldn't they?

 

I imagine so! This has (to my knowledge) never been explained in great detail, but personally I've always interpreted the Ordo-Chamber relationship in a way that it basically "cuts off" the relevant organisation from its ordinary obligations towards the Inquisition. In other words, a Deathwatch Marine approached by an Inquisitor not belonging to the Ordo Xenos is under no obligation to obey their commands - even though the Inquisitor's authority is (officially) still absolute! I suppose you could say the Marines' vows apply only to the Ordo Xenos, essentially "normalising" their relationship to other members of the Inquisition to being similar to a normal Space Marine Chapter, thus allowing them to decide whether or not to help out.

 

It's the same with the Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle. In a way, it's like the Inquisitors of one Ordo banding together and "calling dibs" on a military faction, which then might consider itself at liberty to refuse requests by other Inquisitors by pointing at the Ordo affiliated with them, saying they're too busy and that the supplicant should please talk with Inquisitor soandso.

 

In reality, of course it'd be somewhat more complicated in that the Ordos themselves are only semi-official constructs - "circles" of likeminded Inquisitors who are sharing information and resources. Inquisitor who are particularly powerful and so influential that their reach transcends the borders of their faction might still be reckoned with, and lesser Inquisitors might shy away from moving against claims made towards their Chamber Militant for the sake of keeping the peace.

I'd expect this to be exceptions from the normal dealings, however.

 

I'm actually curious how others think this works, now, so anyone feel free to chime in! :)


Edited by Lynata, 07 May 2014 - 06:22 AM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#72 Misha

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 08:28 PM

I imagine so! This has (to my knowledge) never been explained in great detail, but personally I've always interpreted the Ordo-Chamber relationship in a way that it basically "cuts off" the relevant organisation from its ordinary obligations towards the Inquisition. In other words, a Deathwatch Marine approached by an Inquisitor not belonging to the Ordo Xenos is under no obligation to obey their commands - even though the Inquisitor's authority is (officially) still absolute! I suppose you could say the Marines' vows apply only to the Ordo Xenos, essentially "normalising" their relationship to other members of the Inquisition to being similar to a normal Space Marine Chapter, thus allowing them to decide whether or not to help out.

 

It's the same with the Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle. In a way, it's like the Inquisitors of one Ordo banding together and "calling dibs" on a military faction, which then might consider itself at liberty to refuse requests by other Inquisitors by pointing at the Ordo affiliated with them, saying they're too busy and that the supplicant should please talk with Inquisitor soandso.

 

In reality, of course it'd be somewhat more complicated in that the Ordos themselves are only semi-official constructs - "circles" of likeminded Inquisitors who are sharing information and resources. Inquisitor who are particularly powerful and so influential that their reach transcends the borders of their faction might still be reckoned with, and lesser Inquisitors might shy away from moving against claims made towards their Chamber Militant for the sake of keeping the peace.

I'd expect this to be exceptions from the normal dealings, however.

 

I'm actually curious how others think this works, now, so anyone feel free to chime in! :) Lynata said this.

 

The fluff says that Deathwatch 'belongs' to the Ordo Xenos, Grey Knights to Ordo Malleus and Sisters of Battle to Ordo Hereticus. I've always imagined it with Space Marines the combat minded but at the same time tactically genius Inquisitors get the more influence cause Space Marines don't care for money or power. They respect people who do things not the pen pushers of the Administratum. That's what makes (can't remember the name) Inquisitor of the Chamber where she is. She can talk like a diplomat and willingly fights and does the dirty work. So the Marines know not to mess with her.

 

It's not the fact that you have say lots of influence from the High Lords of Terra themselves, no it is from your self. What you do and choices you make, thats what Space Marines respect.

 

You seem confident that the Angels of Death will listen to you. Why is that? Ho Ho Ho! Because you have authority from the Lords of Terra. Lad thats not what they're looking for. I have served Deathwatch for years. You mean I mean with Deathwatch? I know what I mean! Look here, you have to listen and learn, that's the way. Oh, do answer me a question. How many scars have you earned? How many battles have you fought in? None? Forget it lad. They won't listen to a pen pusher like you. Wait, you say that you have about three years to deliver the message? Good! Give me the message and tell you what I'll even help you. Why don't you take a little holiday to a planet I know. Nice planet with lush jungles and friendly creatures, oh the planet is called Ravacene but don't worry nothings going to hurt you...

Spoken by Inquisitor Ol'Jackson to Inquisitor Marius Helburg.


Edited by Misha, 05 July 2014 - 05:47 AM.





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