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Inquisitor Assigned to a Kill Team


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#21 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:49 AM

Done it - or something like it, anyway. The 'extra' was a Sororitas Palatine, who'd been assigned as a representative by the Ordo Hereticus after [Classified Shenanigans] for a few missions and just kind of hung around afterwards.

The Palatine is a good place to start for a militant inquisitor because she can be reasonably close in capability - yes, she doesn't get an Angelus-calibre bolter, but hers is best craftsmanship, so it doesn't jam, and when gunning down generic goons in a horde the diference is minimal. She gets powered plate and can get unnatural toughness x2 from a relic.

I know Lynata's not a massive fan of the acts of faith (and I agree) but you can build her as the 'grizzled veteran' type quite easily instead of the tactical miracle dispenser - talented (command) and a good fellowship plus not being an 8' genebulked killing machine makes her a very good commander for requisitioned troops, or there's an ability which gives her hatred (everything), extra bonuses for things she actually hates, and proven (3) against any hated target.


Essentially, the Ascension book for Dark Heresy is your first port of call. I'd also get Heed The Higher Call for some quick pre-generated ascension characters for more rapid character generation. Note that just because the character is an inquisitor or interrogator, they needn't necessarily take those archetypes - a militant inquisitor could easily use the Judge, Palatine, Stormtrooper or Desperado archetype for his rules.

http://www.fantasyfl...web-quality.pdf

http://www.fantasyfl...eb Quality).pdf


XP is 13,000, same as for a Deathwatch marine. As noted, keep an eye on how rules work in crossover. I strongly recommend avoiding psykers, as DH uses different rules for psychic powers, and the Primaris Psyker is one of the archetypes often pointed at as being overpowered. (The other being the Vindicere Assassin).


How does it affect the game?

  • The Inquisitor doesn't benefit from or provide cohesion. So you've got a lower pool to work from and he can't benefit from squad mode abilities.
  • The inquisitor doesn't get requisition. The equipment listed as starting gear for the class can be considered standard issue weaponry. Allow pretty free reight to tailor, though. Anything 'normal' should be available at best-craftsmanship, and rare and exotic stuff should be an option instead too.
  • The inquisitor does get an Influence score. Checking influence can be used to acquire exotic stuff or allied dudes, or to pull strings with the Inquisitors of the Chamber or the Crusade forces.
  • Using influence to requisition wierd-ass stuff like null rods and needle pistols does give the inquisitor a chance. He's still not going to be fighting  magnitude 50 hordes or hive tyrants without problems, but you'd be surprised what you can achieve with dirty tricks.
  • Daemon Hunter is a good sourcebook as it contains rules for (human-scale) malleus terminator armour, along with the Pyroclast alternate rank, who are such steaming pyromaniacs they can use an astartes-scale flamer weapon without penalty.
  • If an inquisitor is assigned to a kill-team, you'll find missions shift slightly - if it was 'drop in, murder these specific dudes, leave' you wouldn't need him. Inquisitors are required for a missions where:
  1. You may need an inquisitor's authority on hand - diplomatic-type missions (such as covert meetings with the Tau or Eldar behind the crusade force's back), missions where the Kill-Team is taking direct command of a failing planetary front, or missions where resources such as exterminatus are potentially being deployed (e.g. a tyranid overrun world where the exterminatus 'clock' is being halted for half an hour to allow a kill-team to ****** something vital)
  2. You need an inquisitor's expertise on short notice - investigations where mission objectives need to be changed (or even determined) on short notice, or where the situation is unknown; the 34th Scintillan has vanished without any vox messages or sign of survivors - find out what the hell happened and do something about it. Equally, a kill-team might be deployed to a world where a genestealer cult is known to be active but the location is unknown - the kill-team largely bunkers down whilst the inquisitor and his minions pin down their targets.
  3. Operations against Imperial - or even Inquisitorial - people or facilities, where the target would theoretically have some authority over the kill-team.
  • Also, your mission options change somewhat. If Malleus Terminator Armour is acquired alongside marine tactical dreadnought plate, teleport deployment becomes a possibility. However, whatever armour the inquisitor is wearing, deployment by cestus assault ram, boarding torpedo or drop pod becomes impossible as the inquisitor simply wouldn't survive the experience; it's physiologically stressful for space marines, let alone unaugmented humans. Planetary drops would be stormraven or gun-cutter deployment, or a HALO grav-chute drop, boarding by assault boat with cutting equipment (like a thunderhawk or shark)
  • You're more likely to be operating in non-warzone environments for clandestine operations than simply dropped on a battlefield. Either stealth ops in scout armour or sneaking around a hive world.
  • Minions (honour the chapter/first founding, I think?) might not be a bad plan - they give you human-esque secondary PCs you can wander along with the inquisitor with.
  • Equally, displacement fields are mentioned in the Horus Heresy, and essentially 'shrink' your bulk and allow an unarmoured astartes to pass for human. Very useful for shenanigans missions. How you sneak your armour and weapons into position is, of course, the trick.. In Blood Games, the team carries a compact teleport homer and has its wargear 'beam in' to lock, load and armour up when it's time to go noisy.

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#22 pearldrum1

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:57 AM

You know, my Ascended PC has not been using influence.

 

I have been rewarding him with renown as I do my other players and have come up with a homebrew renown score for different availability items. Essentially, the higher renown he has, the more access he will have to more rare gear.



#23 Lynata

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:05 AM

"In a handful of cases, a Watch Commander has actually joined the ranks of the Inquisition, appointing his replacement before he leaves the Watch Fortress." (Core, page 306)

 

Hahah, I didn't even remember that bit, and I'm fairly sure I must have read it at one point. Thanks for calling this to attention!

 

Fortunately, my group has already decided which version of the background to stick to.  :rolleyes:

 

Just because the two organizations are equals, it does not mean that every member of organization A works as equal to every member of organization B.

 

True. By the same token, however, it also does not mean that they do not work as equals to one another - in fact, that would seem to be the more likely outcome, and that it might not be so is merely a theory you propose.

 

 

 

(human-scale) malleus terminator armour

 

Don't you mean "Civilian Terminator Armour"? ;)

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist - that line and its cause/effects throughout the design process are just too tempting to joke about for me.

 

Operations against Imperial - or even Inquisitorial - people or facilities, where the target would theoretically have some authority over the kill-team.

 

Sidenote: Who might possibly have authority over the Kill-team? The Deathwatch as presented in FFG's books seems to be pretty much a completely autonomous organisation with no links to anyone - except possibly the High Lords, though even that's a matter of interpretation, and based solely on how the Adeptus Astartes are semi-linked to the Imperial Senate as representatives of the Emperor.

 

However, whatever armour the inquisitor is wearing, deployment by cestus assault ram, boarding torpedo or drop pod becomes impossible as the inquisitor simply wouldn't survive the experience; it's physiologically stressful for space marines, let alone unaugmented humans.

 

I know Inquisitors and Battle Sisters drop-podding in GW's stuff, though this might of course be unimportant here - but aren't there drop pods in FFG's Rogue Trader game as well? As a means of transportation for the Rogue Trader and his/her party?

 

Otherwise, good post. I still disagree on mixing games this way as personally I couldn't imagine being disadvantaged in such a way in what will very likely be an important factor throughout the campaign - but that's a player issue, and I have read about people who didn't mind having their role limited to a more supporting type rather than the heroic/epic stuff, so it certainly depends on what each of us is hoping to get out of a game.


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#24 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:10 AM

The reason I like to draw the distinction is that 'rare' for a deathwatch battle-brother and 'rare' for a full inquisitor are two completely different things; a way to draw the difference between the two is very much difference in quality of gear - a space marine with a godywn bolter or an inquisitor (who is much squishier) with a best-craftsmanship inferno pistol.

 

Also, influence can be used to get requisitioned dudes (say, a small stormtrooper section using the stats out of Oblivion's Edge), or to influence tactics or policy on a system/crusade front level - temporarily diverting a pair of Navy destroyers to 'fly wing' for a Deathwatch Rapid Strike Vessel, for example. 

 

Sidenote: Who might possibly have authority over the Kill-team? The Deathwatch as presented in FFG's books seems to be pretty much a completely autonomous organisation with no links to anyone - except possibly the High Lords, though even that's a matter of interpretation, and based solely on how the Adeptus Astartes are semi-linked to the Imperial Senate as representatives of the Emperor.

 

Again, matter of taste. As previously discussed, I'm not a massive fan of them being quite so divorced from the Ordos.

 

We tend to play it more or less as described, but the "Inquisitor of the Chamber" is sort of a liason with oversight/veto powers. I understand why the deathwatch was written as "anyone not a marine is irrelevant" - the Grey Knights codex did the same for them - but I do prefer the Chamber Militant idea. The whole point of the deathwatch was that the astartes are immune (more or less) to inquisitorial authority but that the deathwatch had voluntarily sworn themselves into inquisitorial service.

 

I know Inquisitors and Battle Sisters drop-podding in GW's stuff, though this might of course be unimportant here - but aren't there drop pods in FFG's Rogue Trader game as well? As a means of transportation for the Rogue Trader and his/her party?

True, but not in an astartes pod, Cestus, etc. There are also no shortage of references to 'deceleration which would have killed an ordinary human' or similar verbiage.

 

The Dominica-pattern pod that the Sororitas Strike Force used specifically talked about lower velocities than the astartes version, if I remember right, and I assume the rogue trader component's ones would be the same.

 

Don't you mean "Civilian Terminator Armour"?

Hardly. An inquisitor is hardly going to spend the 3/4 of an hour putting on terminator warplate to walk into a formal dinner. Well, not unless he really wants to make an entrance, anyway... plus, the armour itself is actually better in some respects than astartes stuff - it has some daemonic protection built in that's more akin to Grey Knight armour than anything the deathwatch would wear...

 

 


Edited by Magnus Grendel, 24 April 2014 - 07:21 AM.


#25 Kshatriya

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:10 AM

Actually it goes back to 40K RT, Marines could be Inquisitors and Rogue Traders, as Inquisitors they where the man behind the seens working through agents or the War Masters of the Ordos Militant. as RT's they would ply the space lanes carrying out trade and negotiations between rival or even enemy chapters or between chapters and their less or non- friendly parts of the Adeptus Terra.

Yeah I'll just note that the setting has come a loooooong way since then.

 

 

"In a handful of cases, a Watch Commander has actually joined the ranks of the Inquisition, appointing his replacement before he leaves the Watch Fortress." (Core, page 306)

 

Alex

Like, I don't even know how that was ever supposed to make logistical sense. It reads like a throwaway line a writer put in there to sound "cool" without thinking of any deeper implication.

 

But it doesn't say joined in what way. He could effectively have become a Kill-Marine in an Inquisitor's retinue. But I feel like good Inquisitors are like good mob bosses - they run things behind the scenes, hobnob with high society, and let someone dumber and bigger who works for them be the public face with the red dot on his forehead. A LOT of the canon inquisitors from DH act like this, and I think it holds mostly true for the novels as well except when something big and crazy happens (e.g. First Tyranid War) and an Inquisitor has to really remind everyone that they have infinite weight to throw around.


Edited by Kshatriya, 24 April 2014 - 08:14 AM.

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#26 Lynata

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:11 AM

Also, influence can be used to get requisitioned dudes (say, a small stormtrooper section using the stats out of Oblivion's Edge), or to influence tactics or policy on a system/crusade front level - temporarily diverting a pair of Navy destroyers to 'fly wing' for a Deathwatch Rapid Strike Vessel, for example. 

 

Isn't this similar to what Deathwatch RPG already offers with Renown?

Or would you be aiming at essentially shifting some perks of the Kill-team towards other characters?

 

The whole point of the deathwatch was that the astartes are immune (more or less) to inquisitorial authority but that the deathwatch had voluntarily sworn themselves into inquisitorial service.

 

You mean in FFG's vision of the setting?

 

The Dominica-pattern pod that the Sororitas Strike Force used specifically talked about lower velocities than the astartes version

 

:huh: Where? The only description that I've ever read (in the Citadel Journal) stated it's a variant of the Astartes Deathwind, without (with exception of the weapons loadout for the gun version) saying what actually would be different (and I'd assume "nothing", aside from livery, and having its suspension mountings adjusted for "smaller" people).

 

You can drop an Inquisitor with a Space Marine entourage in the tabletop without issue. I don't see why you couldn't replicate this in the RPG. Even if we are to assume that normal humans are somehow unable to bear with the physical stress of one of those vaunted Astartes drop pods because someone decided that "puny mortals" need to suck more, what's stopping the Kill-team from using a "Civilian Drop Pod"?

 

On a sidenote, I'm just going to reinforce that we are talking about a civilisation that is capable of manipulating gravitational forces, and a Kill-team that can slap anti-grav devices on their guns.

 

Additional nitpick: That deceleration quote strikes me not only as somewhat unsound, given the in-universe science, but also as internally inconsistent. It's more probable that whoever wrote that line did not yet know that any sort of drop pod would be made available in RT, rather than a minimal difference in velocity and subsequent deceleration.

 

Hardly. An inquisitor is hardly going to spend the 3/4 of an hour putting on terminator warplate to walk into a formal dinner. Well, not unless he really wants to make an entrance, anyway... plus, the armour itself is actually better in some respects than astartes stuff - it has some daemonic protection built in that's more akin to Grey Knight armour than anything the deathwatch would wear...

 

Actually, that was just a lame joke about, as per the Dark Heresy core rulebook, any weapon not carried by a Space Marine is a "civilian version", so as to explain the different damage profiles. And since the Malleus Terminator armour has less AP than the Space Marine version...

 

Because obviously, what kind of pilot sits inside totally affects the carrying capacity of the suit, so it is apparently incapable of mounting similarly thick armoured plates.  :P

 

And isn't the Grey Knight armour also "Astartes stuff"? True, you could argue that GKs only bother with daemons and that the DW only bothers with aliens, but as the DW RPG tells us, this isn't true for the RPG. Also, it might be debatable whether the Inquisitor that hangs around with a DW Kill-team would be from the Ordo Malleus rather than the Ordo Xenos. If you make Malleus gear available to the Inquisitor, then you can (in theory) also give it to the Deathwatch.


Edited by Lynata, 24 April 2014 - 08:14 AM.

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#27 Adeptus-B

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:57 AM

 

I have to disagree with giving a PC Inquisitor DW weapons, though- I think that would eat in to the SM players' strength. In a mixed party, the SMs are the 'muscle' and the Inquisitor should be the 'brains', not 'also muscle, with a bunch of other benefits'.

 

Mhmm. How would the Inquisitor qualify as "muscle" if he lacks the Space Marines' Unnaturals? He is not on the same footing when it comes to either melee combat or taking hits. Is it really wrong for the player to have fun in fights, too, by leaving him a single area where he or she can at least feel just as useful? The character will still be squishy, and I think this would influence combat sufficiently to preserve the Marines' speciality.

 

I dunno, I just don't think an Inquisitorial advisor should be in the business of 'de-Magnituding' Hordes. But that's just me...

 

Now another question remains that has me thinking:

Can an Astartes become an Inquistor?

 

The reason why i ask this is because i think it would be cool as a background thing where a lost Astartes is found and assigned to an Inquisitor for retraining and to keep his origins a secret and his knowledge would prove useful to the Inquisition.

 

As others have said, it's not a good idea. However... there is precedent for Inquisitors bestowing their Rosette (and the authority that goes with it) to trusted individuals. If you had a wide-ranging investigation in mind for the core of your campaign, a DW Marine armed with a Rosette given him by a dying Inquisitor who charges him with rooting out a conspiracy within the Ordo could make for an interesting game.



#28 Lynata

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:16 PM

I dunno, I just don't think an Inquisitorial advisor should be in the business of 'de-Magnituding' Hordes. But that's just me...

 

I can understand the argument. I don't particularly like how Hordes work, and don't subscribe to the "Rawr Epic!" way of thinking that cemented their inclusion as a gameplay element. That's just a matter of taste/preferences, though. In essence, I'm approaching the subject from a different angle - that of an Inquisitor having the right to the same quality of wargear, thus conferring an opportunity to under some circumstances be an equally valuable asset in combat.

 

You mentioned in a previous post the ability to "affect key encounters", which is where we seem to agree. I just don't think the rules as they are would allow to make a character be good against individual targets but suck against Hordes - or at least not in a different way than you would already have with the Astartes gear the book offers by default.

 

That being said, DW Marines do get a ton of Talents to maximise damage versus Hordes. Off the top of my hat, I recall stuff like Assault Marines doing an extra d10 of Magnitude damage and stuff like that.

 

As others have said, it's not a good idea. However... there is precedent for Inquisitors bestowing their Rosette (and the authority that goes with it) to trusted individuals.

 

The irony is that if Deathwatch would actually follow GW's original fluff (as far as the relationship with the Inquisition is concerned), the leader of the Kill-team would actually have full Inquisitorial authority as they act as proxies for the Ordo Xenos...

 

"In battle, each team normally comes under the authority of an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, but in some exceptional cases, a Deathwatch Captain or Librarian may assume command if circumstances dictate. Their authority is absolute and none dare question their word. The commander of a Deathwatch detachment may freely requisition forces and equipment without a word of complaint being raised against him."


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current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#29 Annaamarth

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:36 PM

I am increasingly of the opinion that FFG fluff is borked.  Of course, I say the same thing about the way GW is changing a lot of fluff, so I'll just go neckbeard it up somewhere.

 

On a related sidenote: Lynata, I seem to recall there being references to the drop pods used in RT being slower than Astartes versions, with gentler accel/decel profiles so as not to squish the silly humans inside trying to pretend to be Astartes- but I can't seem to find the page reference.  ItS says they've been modified, but that's all.

 

I believe I recall similar references mentioned in Elysian Drop troop stuff, but my copy of the Taros campaign is presently packed away.  It's brought up as explanation for the Elysian's using grav-chutes rather than drop pods.

 

You can still deep-strike inquisitors and stormtroopers in the tabletop because A) for a long time they just glossed over the Valkyrie flyover and they might have paradropped/gravchuted in B) we're talking about the Inquisition, who might easily have drop pods with extra bonus inertial compensation archeotech or something, jeez.


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#30 ak-73

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

True. By the same token, however, it also does not mean that they do not work as equals to one another - in fact, that would seem to be the more likely outcome, and that it might not be so is merely a theory you propose.

 

I am merely saying that there is a lot of wiggle room. And that you can't claim that FFG has definitely made Inquisitors and KT Marines equals. You know, I also still think there is a lot of difference between chapters. I think an Assault Marine from a codex-compliant chapter with lesser reputation might tend to be more obedient than, say, a White Scar Stormseer.

 

The irony is that if Deathwatch would actually follow GW's original fluff (as far as the relationship with the Inquisition is concerned), the leader of the Kill-team would actually have full Inquisitorial authority as they act as proxies for the Ordo Xenos...

 

"In battle, each team normally comes under the authority of an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, but in some exceptional cases, a Deathwatch Captain or Librarian may assume command if circumstances dictate. Their authority is absolute and none dare question their word. The commander of a Deathwatch detachment may freely requisition forces and equipment without a word of complaint being raised against him."

 

Again, I think the difference is to a degree virtual only. You have a group of Astartes before you with the dreaded =I= on their armour. Are you really going to be treating their requests any different from an Inquisitors? Or someone with an inquisitorial rosette? Even if in that moment did not have the mandate to blast you, they have direct access and presumably influence on an inquisitor who does? Anybody will think thrice to say no.

 

That said, it makes for better gaming if the KT has to requisition assets. Leaving reserve requisition and all that. Enforces strategic mission planning. It's just not very pseudo-realistic.

 

As for Inquisitors, I think they go to battle only rarely but then it's on. They need to assist a group of Astartes? Well, they know 80% of all gear from all 40K Roleplay books and they can get their hands on most of it. Think about what that means. You can be sure they will be dressed to the occasion.

 

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#31 Lynata

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:50 PM

On a related sidenote: Lynata, I seem to recall there being references to the drop pods used in RT being slower than Astartes versions, with gentler accel/decel profiles so as not to squish the silly humans inside trying to pretend to be Astartes- but I can't seem to find the page reference.  ItS says they've been modified, but that's all.

 

It's alright, I believe you anyways - it fits to the "pattern" I've witnessed whenever the writers have touched anything that is used by both Space Marines and ordinary humans. Apparently there's some sort of law that the former must always be better. Up to and including the promethium used in Astartes flamethrowers or the gas in Astartes plasma weapons. It's a miracle their Rhinos don't drive any faster, too.

 

I just have a habit of pointing out that this is merely one way of looking at the setting, and that it's not supported by the original source material. So if anyone has problems with this gap - be it because they don't like the fluff, or because they believe it imbalances crossover games - there's no reason to preserve it.

 

I am merely saying that there is a lot of wiggle room. And that you can't claim that FFG has definitely made Inquisitors and KT Marines equals. You know, I also still think there is a lot of difference between chapters. I think an Assault Marine from a codex-compliant chapter with lesser reputation might tend to be more obedient than, say, a White Scar Stormseer.

 

Why not? It's what it says right in the book. You cannot claim it is otherwise, as your interpretation is relying on additional conditions not mentioned by the material.

 

And yes, of course there would be a difference between Chapters. This has nothing to do with obedience, though, but simply with accepting suggestions and good ideas.

 

Again, I think the difference is to a degree virtual only. You have a group of Astartes before you with the dreaded =I= on their armour. Are you really going to be treating their requests any different from an Inquisitors? Or someone with an inquisitorial rosette? Even if in that moment did not have the mandate to blast you, they have direct access and presumably influence on an inquisitor who does? Anybody will think thrice to say no.

 

That's a good point - though you are mixing up cause and effect here. Just because an Inquisitor and a Deathwatch Marine would receive equal support does not mean they actually have equal authority. You could pose the same question and replace both characters with a Commissar and a Captain of the Imperial Guard.

 

But as you correctly pointed out, the Deathwatch RPG does come with a system for requisitioning Imperial assets, so the game designers have essentially elevated the DW to a level where it can command the same kind of support, entirely independent of the Inquisition.

 

An interesting question would be what happens when an Inquisitor demands one thing and the Deathwatch Captain demands the opposite. How would the target of these demands react?

 

On a sidenote: I also agree that it was a weird oversight to keep the "classic" Deathwatch insignia in the books' artwork, instead of replacing the Inquisitorial part with something more space-marine'ish. Like, say, a set of wings.

 

Unless this is supposed to signify some sort of support from the Inquisition that might also extend to authority over other Imperial assets, as if the Ordo Xenos would basically "outsource" a part of its duties and privileges to the Space Marines. Might be a way to explain/excuse a few things, though it should probably be pointed out in the fluff so as to avoid unnecessary confusion.


Edited by Lynata, 24 April 2014 - 01:53 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#32 ak-73

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:13 AM

Why not? It's what it says right in the book. You cannot claim it is otherwise, as your interpretation is relying on additional conditions not mentioned by the material.

 

And yes, of course there would be a difference between Chapters. This has nothing to do with obedience, though, but simply with accepting suggestions and good ideas.

 

The book says that the organization works as partners. If you say that makes Inquisitors and KT Marines equals, that is your interpretation. It's not what the book says.

 

And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of.

 

That's a good point - though you are mixing up cause and effect here. Just because an Inquisitor and a Deathwatch Marine would receive equal support does not mean they actually have equal authority. You could pose the same question and replace both characters with a Commissar and a Captain of the Imperial Guard.

 

But as you correctly pointed out, the Deathwatch RPG does come with a system for requisitioning Imperial assets, so the game designers have essentially elevated the DW to a level where it can command the same kind of support, entirely independent of the Inquisition.

 

An interesting question would be what happens when an Inquisitor demands one thing and the Deathwatch Captain demands the opposite. How would the target of these demands react?

 

On a sidenote: I also agree that it was a weird oversight to keep the "classic" Deathwatch insignia in the books' artwork, instead of replacing the Inquisitorial part with something more space-marine'ish. Like, say, a set of wings.

 

Unless this is supposed to signify some sort of support from the Inquisition that might also extend to authority over other Imperial assets, as if the Ordo Xenos would basically "outsource" a part of its duties and privileges to the Space Marines. Might be a way to explain/excuse a few things, though it should probably be pointed out in the fluff so as to avoid unnecessary confusion.

 

RoB points it out under its asset requisitioning rules. in particular ‘In the Name of the God-Emperor...’ The mechanic is highly debatable but the implication is clear: a KT has partial inquisitorial authority. The deal regarding the DW is clear: we send you a bunch of our finest marines and have them become dedicated anti-xenos specialists you can call on for support at short notice; in return, we operate with a partial mandate.

 

Really, the only difference to other chamber militants is that the Inq cannot order around nilly-willy but that he/she has to ask. A request which will be complied with in 99% of cases. Now there might be a difference in that the DW doesn't make for a good 'blind tool' for a Xanthite Inquisitor, I'll grant you that... but otherwise? Seems more like difference in tone than anything else.

 

Alex


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#33 Lynata

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 09:33 AM

The book says that the organization works as partners. If you say that makes Inquisitors and KT Marines equals, that is your interpretation. It's not what the book says.

 

On the contrary. An Inquisitor's authority is based entirely on his or her organisation having a mandate to command others. If this mandate does not apply to the Deathwatch, then by what right would the Inquisitor have any means to force a DW Marine to do anything they don't agree with?

 

Your interpretation relies on an additional condition that's not pointed out by the core rulebook's description. Can you back it up with a quote from another official product? An adventure maybe?

 

And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of.

 

The Chapter these Marines belong to is called "Deathwatch". Where a Marine served previously may influence his way of thinking and reacting, but it does not change anything about their reputation when serving as a DW Marine.

 

Really, the only difference to other chamber militants is that the Inq cannot order around nilly-willy but that he/she has to ask. A request which will be complied with in 99% of cases.

 

Apart from that quota being a matter of debate even in general, it will depend both on the individual Space Marine receiving this request, as well as the nature of the request itself. There will be instances where the chance to have it followed might decrease to something between 1 and 0 percent, and depending on the plot this could make a huge difference to the campaign.  ;)

 

Note that I agree about it mostly being about tone in most cases. It's still an important difference when it is not, though.

 

Oh, and the players of course. From what I've read on the forums, some actually would say "no" simply because that Inquisitor is an Inquisitor, and they think the Inquisition sucks.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#34 ak-73

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:20 AM

 

The book says that the organization works as partners. If you say that makes Inquisitors and KT Marines equals, that is your interpretation. It's not what the book says.

 

On the contrary. An Inquisitor's authority is based entirely on his or her organisation having a mandate to command others. If this mandate does not apply to the Deathwatch, then by what right would the Inquisitor have any means to force a DW Marine to do anything they don't agree with?

 

Your interpretation relies on an additional condition that's not pointed out by the core rulebook's description. Can you back it up with a quote from another official product? An adventure maybe?

 

If company A and company B form a joint venture, will then a mid-level (or even low-level) manager from company A be the equal of a member of the board of directors of company B?

 

In short: DW Core defines the relationship of two organizations. It does not define (at least in that passage) the relationship between various members of the two organizations. Also, the circumstance that normally their status comes from their authority does not imply it has to be the same here.

 

As I interpret it, they are not equals because a vital part of the DW's mission is to assist OX Inquisitors. Inquisitors are primarily partners with Watch Commanders and Watch Captains and their relationship with a KT comes through those, as a KT is formed of subordinates of their partners.

 

 

The Chapter these Marines belong to is called "Deathwatch". Where a Marine served previously may influence his way of thinking and reacting, but it does not change anything about their reputation when serving as a DW Marine.

 

The Favoured Son Ultramarine Solo Mode is bound to disagree with you. :P

 

 

 

Apart from that quota being a matter of debate even in general, it will depend both on the individual Space Marine receiving this request, as well as the nature of the request itself. There will be instances where the chance to have it followed might decrease to something between 1 and 0 percent, and depending on the plot this could make a huge difference to the campaign.  ;)

 

Note that I agree about it mostly being about tone in most cases. It's still an important difference when it is not, though.

 

Oh, and the players of course. From what I've read on the forums, some actually would say "no" simply because that Inquisitor is an Inquisitor, and they think the Inquisition sucks.

 

What are they doing in the Deathwatch? :D

Ah, come on, it could make for interesting/fun situations, so I might allow it as a GM... but such a PC should be more rare.

 

And seriously? In 80% of the cases in which a marine would waste an Inquisitor who has no command over him, they would also waste the guy if they were working under his command. Because that should usually be only the case when he's gone.... Xanthite or beyond! :lol:

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

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House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#35 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 12:33 PM

"Civilian armour/bolters/whatever" is old Inquisitors Handbook terminology and people should stop  harping on it. It's irritating as crap and betrays a strange fixation :).


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 26 April 2014 - 12:34 PM.


#36 Lynata

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:11 PM

If company A and company B form a joint venture, will then a mid-level (or even low-level) manager from company A be the equal of a member of the board of directors of company B?

 

Apparently yes, because joint ventures include the forming of a new entity with a new hierarchy - the sponsoring companies (which includes their managers and members of the board of directors) will remain independent and merely share/contribute resources to the new enterprise. Staff of one company does not suddenly gain the power to interfere with its partner.

http://en.wikipedia....y_incorporation

 

You've chosen a bad example. In the real world, staff of different, unrelated companies is equal (in that they have no power over one another) even when they do not form a joint venture. In 40k, an Inquisitor has authority over anyone. At least in GW's vision of the setting.

 

In short: DW Core defines the relationship of two organizations. It does not define (at least in that passage) the relationship between various members of the two organizations. Also, the circumstance that normally their status comes from their authority does not imply it has to be the same here.

 

As I interpret it, they are not equals because a vital part of the DW's mission is to assist OX Inquisitors. Inquisitors are primarily partners with Watch Commanders and Watch Captains and their relationship with a KT comes through those, as a KT is formed of subordinates of their partners.

 

I can't follow your interpretation. If members of one organisation actually had power over members of the other, how could the organisations themselves possibly be regarded as equals?

 

Also:

 

"The Inquisitor is more of an ambassador than an overseer, and has no direct control over the Watch Commander or his forces."

- p.308

 

The Favoured Son Ultramarine Solo Mode is bound to disagree with you. :P

 

Nope, that seems to be your interpretation again. Re-rolling Fellowship Tests has little to do with whether or not the character has any more authority over his counterparts than anyone else.

- When the Ultramarine can do a Fellowship Test, then so could anyone else.

- If the Ultramarine had this authority, he would not have to roll a Test.

 

What "Favoured Son" represents is, as the book says, the character's "pride and unshakable personal belief". But simply believing you have a right to command someone does not make it any more (or less) true. :)

 

What are they doing in the Deathwatch? :D

 

Don't ask me. I've seen a lot of weird characters in the forums. :P

 

 

 

"Civilian armour/bolters/whatever" is old Inquisitors Handbook terminology and people should stop  harping on it. It's irritating as crap and betrays a strange fixation :).

 

Why should I stop? It's so very easy to pick on - and it is, so far, the only official explanation we have as to why the equipment profiles are so absurdly different.

 

But I can understand if this criticism makes some people uncomfortable, as I believe it exposes how weak the reason for this gap is. :)


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#37 ak-73

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 03:10 PM

 

Apparently yes, because joint ventures include the forming of a new entity with a new hierarchy - the sponsoring companies (which includes their managers and members of the board of directors) will remain independent and merely share/contribute resources to the new enterprise. Staff of one company does not suddenly gain the power to interfere with its partner.

http://en.wikipedia....y_incorporation

 

You've chosen a bad example. In the real world, staff of different, unrelated companies is equal (in that they have no power over one another) even when they do not form a joint venture. In 40k, an Inquisitor has authority over anyone. At least in GW's vision of the setting.

 

My my, don't be so literal please. If a joint venture was formed and a new hierarchy introduced, then the CxO of company B would still not be under the thumb of the Assistant Manager of Complaint Handling of Company A.

 

My whole point was that if two organizations are partners it says NOTHING about the relationship between random members of the parties involved. It does mean that equal levels of the two parties are equals.

 

 

I can't follow your interpretation. If members of one organisation actually had power over members of the other, how could the organisations themselves possibly be regarded as equals?

 

Seriously? Think about it.

 

 

Also:

 

"The Inquisitor is more of an ambassador than an overseer, and has no direct control over the Watch Commander or his forces."

- p.308

 

 

 

The Favoured Son Ultramarine Solo Mode is bound to disagree with you. :P

 

Nope, that seems to be your interpretation again.

 

Nope, that is you misreading things.

 

 

Re-rolling Fellowship Tests has little to do with whether or not the character has any more authority over his counterparts than anyone else.

- When the Ultramarine can do a Fellowship Test, then so could anyone else.

- If the Ultramarine had this authority, he would not have to roll a Test.

 

What "Favoured Son" represents is, as the book says, the character's "pride and unshakable personal belief". But simply believing you have a right to command someone does not make it any more (or less) true. :)

 

I didn't talk about authority though, you are injecting that here. I said previously:

"And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of."

 

I could also mention the Blood Angels who are represented more than any other chapter in chapels across the Imperium. If you think that should have no psychological effect on both the Blood Angels as well as those dealing with them, I say you should think again. ;)

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#38 Lynata

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:27 PM

My my, don't be so literal please. If a joint venture was formed and a new hierarchy introduced, then the CxO of company B would still not be under the thumb of the Assistant Manager of Complaint Handling of Company A.

 

I just don't see what you are attempting to express with this example? As I said, whether or not the companies do a joint venture changes absolutely nothing on how staff of both companies deal with each other.

 

This does not apply to the context of this issue at all - if one of the companies in your example was an Inquisitor, then they'd have authority over the other party regardless whether or not they'd do a joint venture.

 

My whole point was that if two organizations are partners it says NOTHING about the relationship between random members of the parties involved. It does mean that equal levels of the two parties are equals.

 

Again, you are missing the point. If the book says that "neither party is subject to the command of the other" (p. 305), then a random Inquisitor cannot just show up and "steal" a Kill-team by claiming authority. Doing so would undermine and erode the Deathwatch's independence - its equality.

 

Even by your interpretation it doesn't make sense. When a Kill-team is operating under orders of their Watch Captain (meaning: every single time they are dispatched on a mission, so: always), what exactly is supposed to happen if an "equal level" of authority in the Inquisition shows up and countermands those orders?

 

"The Inquisitor is more of an ambassador than an overseer, and has no direct control over the Watch Commander or his forces."

- p.308

 

And you accuse me of being literal?  ;)

 

Elaborate what you consider "indirect control" then, please.

 

 

Nope, that is you misreading things.

I didn't talk about authority though, you are injecting that here. I said previously:

"And it has to do with reputation. A First Founding chapter has a different reputation and usually more influence than the chapter Run-of-the-Mills which nobody has ever heard of."

 

If you didn't talk about authority, why did you bring it up at all?

This debate is about one person being able to command another, not someone voluntarily deciding to agree.

 

And I'm not misreading things. The book specifically points out that the effect of this Ability is based on the Ultramarine's way of thinking. In case the partial quote was not enough, I'll repeat the full description:

 

"The Ultramarines consider themselves a pure expression of the Codex Astartes and among the truest of the Emperor's sons. This pride and unshakable personal belief often manifests itself in their leadership abilities and the example they set to other members of the Adeptus Astartes."

 

He doesn't even get a bonus to the Test, he's just stubborn enough to try again. Also, what kind of bonus does a Space Wolf get to their reputation? A Blood Angel? Do they have similar Talents, given that they are from First Founding Chapters as well? According to you, they should have a similar Ability.

 

 

Actually, I'm not even disagreeing with a Chapter's reputation being able to influence its dealings with others. After all, this has been mentioned in GW fluff countless of times. However, you are missing a few important things:

- this does not seem to be represented in the DW RPG (perhaps for one or both of the following points)

- if confronted by a DW Marine, are random acquaintances more likely to see a, say, Blood Angel, or simply a Deathwatch Marine, because this makes up 90% of their visual appearance and 100% of their temporary allegiance?

- should a Chapter's reputation truly be known to everyone in the Imperium, or only to those individuals who have actively interacted with, been told about, or researched its history? (probably a much, much smaller number)

 

But again, this sub-debate is useless, because we were talking about authority and commands, not voluntary subordination.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#39 Annaamarth

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:51 AM

Speaking of sub-debates, don't we already have an "ak-73 VS. Lynata thread?"  It's like watching an Orange and a Green in Ireland of the 1920's.  Hopefully without the bombings and drive-bys.


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RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#40 pearldrum1

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:33 AM

Hahaha, I was thinking the same thing, dude.






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