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Inquisitor Assigned to a Kill Team


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#1 LordDD337

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:34 AM

Hi all.

 

This question has come up ever since one of my players wanted to see if he could play as an inquisitor.

 

The first question is how does he go about creating one.

 

Second is how much XP would he have

 

The third would be how would it affect the kill team



#2 Adeptus-B

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 02:32 PM

The Dark Heresy supplement Ascension has rules for PC Inquisitors, which start at the same XP total as a Rank 1 DW Marine. They have far more (and more varied) skills than a DW Marine, but are drastically 'squishier' in combat. So, if your player wants to run a know-it-all 'advisor' to the Kill Team who mostly tries to avoid direct combat, it might work. If the player wants the Inquisitor to fight side-by-side with the Kill Team- probably not...

 

-And keep in mind that in DW, the Inquisition has been reduced to an 'ally' of the Deathwatch, and not their superiors.


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#3 ak-73

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 02:39 PM

-And keep in mind that in DW, the Inquisition has been reduced to an 'ally' of the Deathwatch, and not their superiors.

 

The difference is mostly virtual though. I don't see how he/she isn't the boss on a mission.

 

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#4 Lynata

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 02:58 PM

I generally advise against importing unmodified assets from other game lines, as the systems were clearly not written with perfect compatibility in mind. However, the Inquisitor is probably the one thing that can sort-of work, simply because the huge array of Skills and Talents this character is going to possess would actually fit to their role in the group, and (hopefully) make the gameplay enjoyable enough for the player. 

 

I'm going to assume the GM will have to insert a few social- or knowledge-based challenges where the Inquisitor will have a chance to shine, though.

 

Otherwise, it might also be helpful to give this character access to the "Astartes" armoury in the Deathwatch rulebook. This would allow the Inquisitor to be on equal footing when it comes to dealing ranged damage, which certainly goes a long way to establishing a sort of common ground in combat situations, even though he or she would (appropriately) remain somewhat squishier (unless you throw in a force field, I reckon). As an added bonus, this also reduces the amount of instances you have to browse the books of a different game line just for a single character, and it might allow you to govern the Inquisitor's equipment by making use of DW's Renown system rather than having two distinct systems running parallel to each other.

 

I don't see how he/she isn't the boss on a mission.

 

By the Space Marines not being bound to obey them? The character can make suggestions, but whether or not the Astartes follow them is entirely up to the players / their characters' personality.

 

Though the GM could probably force a "classic" command structure into the game by having the Watch Captain tell the players to listen to what the dude/gal with the rosette says.


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#5 Adeptus-B

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

I generally advise against importing unmodified assets from other game lines, as the systems were clearly not written with perfect compatibility in mind.

....

 

Otherwise, it might also be helpful to give this character access to the "Astartes" armoury in the Deathwatch rulebook.

 

The first part is absolutely true; I suggested it simply because it would be easier than house-ruling from scratch (and probably no more out-of-balance than whatever house-rule Inquisitor an average GM could whip up).

 

I have to disagree with giving a PC Inquisitor DW weapons, though- I think that would eat in to the SM players' strength. In a mixed party, the SMs are the 'muscle' and the Inquisitor should be the 'brains', not 'also muscle, with a bunch of other benefits'. I think a better option would be to kit out the Inquisitor with weird gear that would have scenario-specific applications without stepping on the SM's toes. Things like Needle Pistols, Psyk-Out Grenades, a Null Rod- unusual stuff that wouldn't be effective against a Horde (the SM's forte) but could effect a key encounter within the mission. That's my two cents...


Edited by Adeptus-B, 23 April 2014 - 03:15 PM.

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#6 ak-73

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:28 PM


I don't see how he/she isn't the boss on a mission.

 

By the Space Marines not being bound to obey them? The character can make suggestions, but whether or not the Astartes follow them is entirely up to the players / their characters' personality.

 

Though the GM could probably force a "classic" command structure into the game by having the Watch Captain tell the players to listen to what the dude/gal with the rosette says.

 

That is a given. In fact, I don't think the Watch Captain has to state during briefing that the Inq has the authority, it's kinda obvious. As I told you before, I think rejection of requests/orders demand special circumstances. Unless you're a Space Wolf, then you do whatever you think is best anyway. :lol:

 

So the difference between being partners or subordinates is rather a formal one. The Inq didn't order that the kill-team should support his mission, he has requested the support. It makes for a different tone, that's all. End result is the same.

 

Alex


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#7 Kshatriya

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 05:29 PM

XP-wise, you need to be using Ascension, as an XP-equivalent DH character has about as much XP as a starting Space Marine (13,000 or so).

Honestly this is a Bad Idea for many reasons, not the least being the Ascension rules are crap and how the DW and DH systems and power levels were not designed to mesh, which causes a clusterf***of challenges. E.g. a DH character will be a much more competent skill-monkey than any Astarte, since they actually can spend 13,000 XP rather than 1000 of that 13,000. The result is they will easily make most skill-based challenges (that could actually challenge Space Marines) pretty trivial for the party to get around. This is an important consideration in planning missions.

Also, DH psychic rules use a completely different system from DW, to the point where pretty much any Ascended DH character with psychic powers is one step away from being broken, whether they're a Primaris or a psychic Inquisitor. DH psykers by themselves trivialize encounters through the Minor Power system, when you add in Unnatural Willpower and Force Barrage there are stories of them soloing groups of Greater Daemons. In DW, only a Black Templar can reliably do anything close to the latter with his Solo Mode; really, there's no comparison.

On the flip side, DH characters are flimsy and won't have the Unnaturals, implanted organs, etc that allow DW characters to take as much damage, and lack Squad Mode access as well (which is the key for Kill-Teams to overwhelm opponents, by breaking the action economy).

I think you should pick a game line and stick with it for everyone. DH and DW are rather incompatible rules-wise, which is always a much bigger headache than fluff-wise.

 

Even fluff-wise, Inquisitors are either just a guy who might give you orders, which you might follow out of respect...or he's the undisputed boss who can execute you on a whim (which is never fun for the rest of the party - I think that a well-run Ascension game would have to treat the Inquisitor in a say that the Rogue Trader is treated in RT. That being that the Rogue Trader is nominally always in charge and owns the ship, but in practice we have virtually ALWAYS run it OOC as a democracy, noting that the Trader has smart and specialized advisors for a good reason and could not run his business alone, and also it's no fun to be bossed around by a fellow player all the time).


Edited by Kshatriya, 23 April 2014 - 05:30 PM.

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#8 Annaamarth

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:17 PM

This might get me lit on fire but...  I'd recommend one of two methods.

 

One: Use Black Crusade to 'model' the Inquisitor, but use the insanity/corruption rules from DH or RT, whichever you prefer. That starts him out at (IIRC) 8000 xp, and the characters are explicitly modeled to hang out with Astartes- but be much less good at combat.  If he's psychic, I would allow access to the Astartes powers in DW rather than the BC powers- unless he's a dirty radical sorcerer, of course.

 

Two: Use Black Crusade to model all of the characters and ditch the squadmode/solomode stuff since it's weird anyway, but hack in DW powers.  Give characters XP to bring them up to the 13k xp level, and use DW style acquisitions.

 

Porting in direct from Ascension is probably what FFG would recommend, but ascension has its own issues, as discussed.

 

No matter what you do, it's going to be clunky and weird.  The Inquisitor is going to be a support character by definition- if the player is expecting an action hero that can keep up with the Astartes, he may be disappointed.  There's the disclaimer.


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#9 Lynata

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:16 PM

I have to disagree with giving a PC Inquisitor DW weapons, though- I think that would eat in to the SM players' strength. In a mixed party, the SMs are the 'muscle' and the Inquisitor should be the 'brains', not 'also muscle, with a bunch of other benefits'.

 

Mhmm. How would the Inquisitor qualify as "muscle" if he lacks the Space Marines' Unnaturals? He is not on the same footing when it comes to either melee combat or taking hits. Is it really wrong for the player to have fun in fights, too, by leaving him a single area where he or she can at least feel just as useful? The character will still be squishy, and I think this would influence combat sufficiently to preserve the Marines' speciality.

 

Deathwatch is a game focused on combat. To me, it would seem super-lame if one character would be gimped 90% of the time, and during the remaining 20 minutes he gets to show off his "awesome" knowledge skills by solving some token riddle whilst the others stand around looking bored. This is the worst case scenario, mind you, but an easy trap to walk into.

 

A good game should aim to make every single character/player feel valuable as much as possible, not segregate a session into a "Marine part" and an "Inquisitor part" where the respective other gets to feel like an adjunct. This means including events both types of characters have a chance to influence what's happening equally. And this means events where the Marines' own knowledge skills and Chapter-specific interaction come into play as well, rather than flat out saying something like "the Astartes are doing the combat, the Inquisitor is there for the science and the talky bits - and don't you dare try to step out of line".

 

It's probably a question of how we envision a game like that to work out, though. I just couldn't imagine it any other way, so perhaps that is my weakness.

 

 

In fact, I don't think the Watch Captain has to state during briefing that the Inq has the authority, it's kinda obvious.

 

How would it be obvious? The Inquisition and Deathwatch in this game work differently than in the source material you may be referring to. In the core rulebook, they are specifically said to be equal partners - the default relationship would thus be one where none commands the other, similar to a Dark Heresy Acolyte cell that lacks a clear leader. The characters will probably voice suggestions, and then either go with one or not.


Edited by Lynata, 23 April 2014 - 08:20 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#10 pearldrum1

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:52 PM

 

I generally advise against importing unmodified assets from other game lines, as the systems were clearly not written with perfect compatibility in mind.

....

 

Otherwise, it might also be helpful to give this character access to the "Astartes" armoury in the Deathwatch rulebook.

 

The first part is absolutely true; I suggested it simply because it would be easier than house-ruling from scratch (and probably no more out-of-balance than whatever house-rule Inquisitor an average GM could whip up).

 

I have to disagree with giving a PC Inquisitor DW weapons, though- I think that would eat in to the SM players' strength. In a mixed party, the SMs are the 'muscle' and the Inquisitor should be the 'brains', not 'also muscle, with a bunch of other benefits'. I think a better option would be to kit out the Inquisitor with weird gear that would have scenario-specific applications without stepping on the SM's toes. Things like Needle Pistols, Psyk-Out Grenades, a Null Rod- unusual stuff that wouldn't be effective against a Horde (the SM's forte) but could effect a key encounter within the mission. That's my two cents...

 

 

This right here. The point of having a PC that is not a Space Marine in a DW game is to server other purposes than being a Space Marine.

 

I have an Ascended Storm Trooper in the game that I am running right now, and he happens to be a badazz scout. So, while the Astartes are trudging around loud as hell in their armor, he is sneaking through the woods and reporting back valuable intel to the group - weak points in the enemy's fortifications and armor, enemy numbers, etc - as well as sabotaging and being a badazz with demolitions.

 

I did minor upgrades to his las carbine and hand cannon to make them more viable in the DW setting (as it is naturally more brutal), but they are not near as powerful as the SM bolters. And that is the point. He is squishy and he knows it. His role is not direct combat and he knows it. Make sure your player KNOWS THEIR ROLE.

 

Secondly, be prepared to do some leg work. The ascended PCs dont transfer all neat and tidy. You will have to adjust some stats and be reasonable in listening to player concerns or requests while not allowing them to over buff. I have had to walk a tedious line but it has been really fruitful so far.


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#11 LordDD337

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:02 PM

Thanks for all the ideas.

 

Ill certainly look into it.

 

Now another question remains that has me thinking:

Can an Astartes become an Inquistor?

 

The reason why i ask this is because i think it would be cool as a background thing where a lost Astartes is found and assigned to an Inquisitor for retraining and to keep his origins a secret and his knowledge would prove useful to the Inquisition.



#12 pearldrum1

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:06 PM

NO.

 

NEVER.

 

NO.

 

I hate you now.



#13 Kshatriya

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:45 PM

Can an Astartes become an Inquistor?

No. Not that an Astartes would be particularly suited for the role to begin with.

 

 

Mhmm. How would the Inquisitor qualify as "muscle" if he lacks the Space Marines' Unnaturals? He is not on the same footing when it comes to either melee combat or taking hits. Is it really wrong for the player to have fun in fights, too, by leaving him a single area where he or she can at least feel just as useful? The character will still be squishy, and I think this would influence combat sufficiently to preserve the Marines' speciality.

 

I was thinking about this earlier. A thing that could happen is if the Inquisitor was psychic, let him buy Psy Rating as it is in DH but let him take only Rogue Trader powers with his Psychic Power Talents (since RT and DW use the same system). Astropaths get a variety of useful powers both in and out of combat and avoid the staggering problems with the baseline DH psychic system.

 

 

Deathwatch is a game focused on combat. To me, it would seem super-lame if one character would be gimped 90% of the time, and during the remaining 20 minutes he gets to show off his "awesome" knowledge skills by solving some token riddle whilst the others stand around looking bored. This is the worst case scenario, mind you, but an easy trap to walk into.

 

I don't know if this is really relevant, but I've found that either playing or running a game that is sooooo combat-focused produces a quite boring game experience that is more tabletop war-game than engaging RPG (and more fun to play as a tabletop war-game as well). If that's your focus, ok sure it's the authors' intent, but that was a rather terrible design to begin with. There are a number of ways Astartes, particularly Deathwatch Astartes, can be put into non-combat scenes where they can make an interesting difference...and in my experience as a player and a GM, much more fun than yet another slog against a horde. 


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#14 ak-73

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:09 AM


In fact, I don't think the Watch Captain has to state during briefing that the Inq has the authority, it's kinda obvious.

 

How would it be obvious? The Inquisition and Deathwatch in this game work differently than in the source material you may be referring to. In the core rulebook, they are specifically said to be equal partners - the default relationship would thus be one where none commands the other, similar to a Dark Heresy Acolyte cell that lacks a clear leader. The characters will probably voice suggestions, and then either go with one or not.

 

 

Well, we need to discuss the semantics of that statement.

"In this mission, the Ordo Xenos and the Deathwatch are equals, the Inquisitors rooting out the foes for the Deathwatch to eradicate. While neither party is subject to the command of the other, both work in concert towards their common goal, according to those oaths made centuries ago. The two work closely together, ever watchful for that fateful day when the prophecies of the conclave are realised."

 

Just because the two organizations are equals, it does not mean that every member of organization A works as equal to every member of organization B.

 

Alex


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#15 Annaamarth

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:34 AM

Astartes don't become members of the Inquisition, ever- the Inquisition uses the Deathwatch, the Grey Knights and the Sororitas for that.

 

The reason for this (and there is always a reason) is that it's not their job.  The Inquisition are seekers and finders and questioners and librarians (small ell, as opposed to Astartes Librarians) who infiltrate cults to find out who is backing them.  Astartes are (generally) extremely bad at infiltration and subtlety.  The Alpha Legion do it, but they don't count because nobody knows what even the barking Tuesday frog Alpha Legion is doing, possibly not even Alpha Legion.  Raven Guard do SOCOM/SOG/SpecOps style infiltration, but that's not the sort of thing Inquisitors need to do anyway.

 

If Astartes are the military, the Inquisition is the NSA, CIA, FSB and so on- they are watching everyone and reading everybody's mail.  You don't need a tank for a drug bust, and the Deathwatch don't get called in to wipe a cell of Cold Traders on Scintilla dealing drugs from Commorragh.

 

An Astartes has talents that make him murder on the battlefield- and they don't help at all when rubbing shoulders with high-society nitwits, trying to get invited to the after-party with Lelith Hesperax and her wych-hookers.  In point of fact, the things that make Astartes so fantastic in combat (big and STRONG, gengineered for war) are actively detrimental for most duties of the Inquisition, because they draw attention.  An Astartes of sufficiently flexible outlook might doff his armour and try to masquerade as an augmented bodyguard or something (as long as he keeps his black carapace jacks concealed), but even then getting that invitation isn't likely- he's obviously not hipster enough to hang with the cool kids.


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#16 ak-73

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:49 AM

"In a handful of cases, a Watch Commander has actually joined the ranks of the Inquisition, appointing his replacement before he leaves the Watch Fortress." (Core, page 306)

 

Alex


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#17 Annaamarth

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 04:50 AM

Hm.  FFG fluff is screwing with me again.  :D

 

Also, why?  What does this gain the Inquisition?  They don't need the muscle, they have their own arbitrators and guardsmen, so why would they need to recruit a perfectly good Watch Commander away from running a Watch Fortress?  Where would he be more useful than running their Chamber Militant?  Seems silly.


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RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#18 pearldrum1

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:35 AM

Something FFG came up with that I will never agree with.

 

An Astartes of such repute as a watch commander forgetting and shrugging off his responsibility to his Chapter to join the Inquisition?

 

No thanks. Not buying it. It seems really silly.


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#19 Drop Bear 2.0

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:25 AM

Actually it goes back to 40K RT, Marines could be Inquisitors and Rogue Traders, as Inquisitors they where the man behind the seens working through agents or the War Masters of the Ordos Militant. as RT's they would ply the space lanes carrying out trade and negotiations between rival or even enemy chapters or between chapters and their less or non- friendly parts of the Adeptus Terra.



#20 ak-73

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:26 AM

I didn't say I agree with it, I just stumbled over it. It's a minor piece of fluff that can be ignored easily. I mean... when would it ever come up?

 

Alex


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