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Rules Idea - Penalties/Bonuses for Speed?


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#1 Imagined Realms

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:55 PM

We get bonuses and penalties for range, but I thought it might be interesting if we also had the same for speed. Something like:

 

+1 Attack dice when targeting someone that moved '1' movement; and

+1 Defense dice when being targeted and having flown at speed '5'

 

Thought it might more accurately reflect the benefits of flying fragile but fast moving ships.

 

Thoughts?


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#2 Aminar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:16 PM

I would say playtest it and see how it turns out. I think it would make the game a little awkward... And possibly overpower Tie Fighters.

#3 Popn618

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:21 PM

Combined with other things it might add for a lot of dice rolling. Though I guess with the huge ships were the process for 8-9 attack dice/ defense divce is a thing
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#4 AdmiralThrawn

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:55 PM

That feels a little to complicated, I think the regular range bonuses work just fine. Including the new range 4 and 5. The bonus from speed comes from maneuvering to get that bonus attack or defense die.


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#5 Stelar 7

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:13 PM

Why, why do you so hate the Y-wings?!

Think of the children! *wrings hands*
Rebel scum: 5 X-Wings, 4 Y-Wings, 3 A-Wings, 3 B-Wings, 2 Hawks, 1Falcon, 2 E-Wings, 4 Z-95 1 Transport.

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#6 Introverdant

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:21 PM

That's not even how dogfights work...

Fast, linear movement is bad. It leaves your opponent behind you and limits your maneuverability. 

Because humans are squishy meatbags and can't survive much in the way of G-forces. 


Edited by Introverdant, 21 April 2014 - 08:24 PM.

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#7 Aminar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:40 PM

That's not even how dogfights work...
Fast, linear movement is bad. It leaves your opponent behind you and limits your maneuverability. 
Because humans are squishy meatbags and can't survive much in the way of G-forces.

Depends on the compensators in the spaceship honestly. I mean, the g-forces these ships move at would flatten any human being. We can't live at very High G's. Especially in a sitting position, so I have to assume that the G'sfrom spaceship flight are 99.9999999999% or so mitigated.

#8 Introverdant

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:46 PM

If you play the "magic gravity compensator" card the whole metaphor instantly falls apart and you don't have dogfights anymore. 

 

Even if you scale it up to "99.9999999999% or so mitigated", the laws of physics are still at work. The best place to be in a dogfight is behind your opponent, where you can shoot them and they can't shoot you. Going fast is useless unless you are much, much faster than your opponent and can leave the engagement area entirely & re-enter from a more advantageous vector. And if you're that much faster, you should probably just go re-arm with whatever BVR munitions are necessary to destroy your target from Beyond Visual Range. 


Edited by Introverdant, 21 April 2014 - 09:01 PM.


#9 Aminar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:53 PM

If you play the "magic gravity compensator" card the whole metaphor instantly falls apart and you don't have dogfights anymore.

And if you don't you don't have spaceships accelerating at 3700 gs(as according to Wookiepedia on the X-wing. Because last I researched 10 is the human limit in most situations where lying down is an option, 5 will knock you out if you're upright, maybe up to 15 or a little more with frequent exposure. That research was a year or so ago, but I know for a fact I went with 5 g's while writing the scenes I needed so nobody would die.

Edited by Aminar, 21 April 2014 - 08:53 PM.


#10 Introverdant

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:10 PM

 

If you play the "magic gravity compensator" card the whole metaphor instantly falls apart and you don't have dogfights anymore.

And if you don't you don't have spaceships accelerating at 3700 gs(as according to Wookiepedia on the X-wing. Because last I researched 10 is the human limit in most situations where lying down is an option, 5 will knock you out if you're upright, maybe up to 15 or a little more with frequent exposure. That research was a year or so ago, but I know for a fact I went with 5 g's while writing the scenes I needed so nobody would die.

 

 

Not sure what your point is.

If you're trying to argue that Star Wars' interpretation of spaceship battles is totally incoherent gibberish, well... 

yeah. :-/

 

We love it anyway. 



#11 Aminar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:16 PM

If you play the "magic gravity compensator" card the whole metaphor instantly falls apart and you don't have dogfights anymore.

And if you don't you don't have spaceships accelerating at 3700 gs(as according to Wookiepedia on the X-wing. Because last I researched 10 is the human limit in most situations where lying down is an option, 5 will knock you out if you're upright, maybe up to 15 or a little more with frequent exposure. That research was a year or so ago, but I know for a fact I went with 5 g's while writing the scenes I needed so nobody would die.
 
Not sure what your point is.
If you're trying to argue that Star Wars' interpretation of spaceship battles is totally incoherent gibberish, well... 
yeah. :-/
 
We love it anyway.
No I'm saying that mentioning the G-forces of a manuever in regards to spaceship combat is silly and pointless. You brought them up to shoot down the guys idea when they just don't apply. Yes Star Wars Space combat is a little weird, but magic g-force inhibitors cover most of the cracks and squished jelly men over pretty well. Enough technobabble covers it all. The G-compensators are just important to that technobabble.(sound in space aside. Their technobabble there is just silly. Awareness my butt... That's what sensors are for.

#12 StevenO

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:32 PM

If you are going to add modifiers based on maneuvering then I'd say you should get +1 Defense dice after performing a red maneuver and +1 Attack dice after performing a green maneuver.  The defense for red comes from performing some kind of extreme maneuver although the stress from doing that will keep you from pulling that stunt too often.  When green maneuvers are so easy you lose stress on them the presumably they will also give you plenty of time to set up better attacks.

 

 

Flying fast, but straight, really isn't going to do much to help your defense when you consider tracking information that can say exactly where you need to shoot to hit a target.  If crook is shooting at you with a gun while you are running away while you may want to run away as fast as you can you may be a lot less likely to get hit by slowing down just a little and then throwing in some bobbing and weaving.


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#13 Introverdant

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:33 PM

 

 

magic g-force inhibitors cover most of the cracks and squished jelly men over pretty well.

 

Ummmm but they don't. 

That's the whole point.

If you have magic g-force inhibitors, you don't have dogfights at all. It doesn't matter how much technobabble you throw at it because it's a logical impossibility. The two are mutually exclusive, because the entire premise of a dogfight is built on limitations imposed by the laws of physics - specifically gravity. If you wave that away with technobabble, you lose the metaphor which makes it cool in the first place and you don't have Star Wars anymore.


Edited by Introverdant, 21 April 2014 - 09:47 PM.


#14 Aminar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:42 PM

magic g-force inhibitors cover most of the cracks and squished jelly men over pretty well.

 
Ummmm but they don't. 
That's the whole point.
If you have magic g-force inhibitors, you don't have dogfights at all. It doesn't matter how much technobabble you throw at it because it's a logical impossibility. The two are mutually exclusive, because the entire premise of a dogfight is built on limitations imposed by the laws of physics - specifically gravity. If you wave that away with technobabble, you lose the metaphor which makes it cool in the first place and you don't have Star Wars anymore.
In space the limitation is inertia. Same idea. Fighter combat is dogfighting is fighter combat. The tactics change a little in space, but fighter combat still functions.

#15 Duraham

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:45 PM

back to the main point, bonuses for speed is already incorporated into the game, in the form of the range bonuses.

see, in order to get to a closer range and gain the bonus attack dice, you will need to move faster. In exchange, there is also the increased likelihood that you would not be able to fire at your opponent because he is outside your firing arc. On the flipside, you could go slow and thus capture a wider area with your firing arc, but your opponent would be further away from you and gain a bonus defense dice.

Of course, you have artillery pieces like the Bwing with HLC that kinda ignores it, but otherwise it is nearly a universal rule, even your Ywing gains advantages by moving fast, where the Ywing is more able to escape firing arcs if it is up close, and can actually dish out some real damage, and your ion turret requires range 2 or less anyway


Edited by Duraham, 21 April 2014 - 09:47 PM.


#16 Introverdant

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:49 PM

 

 

magic g-force inhibitors cover most of the cracks and squished jelly men over pretty well.

 
Ummmm but they don't. 
That's the whole point.
If you have magic g-force inhibitors, you don't have dogfights at all. It doesn't matter how much technobabble you throw at it because it's a logical impossibility. The two are mutually exclusive, because the entire premise of a dogfight is built on limitations imposed by the laws of physics - specifically gravity. If you wave that away with technobabble, you lose the metaphor which makes it cool in the first place and you don't have Star Wars anymore.
In space the limitation is inertia. Same idea. Fighter combat is dogfighting is fighter combat. The tactics change a little in space, but fighter combat still functions.

 

 

 

 

It's like this:

 

1. You want to get behind your opponent

2. To get there, you need to turn in behind them as sharply as possible

3. The faster your vector, the wider your turn has to be because geometry

4. Hence the slower you can go, the better

 

 

None of this stops being true if you have magic g-force compensators - unless they are infinitely effective.

If they are infinitely effective, it doesn't matter anymore. Whatever you do you can't get behind your opponent because they too have infinitely effective g-force compensators and can maneuver at infinite G's. The whole thing falls apart. 


Edited by Introverdant, 21 April 2014 - 09:50 PM.


#17 Duraham

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:55 PM

they dont have such good G-force compensators, else all the K-turns you see in this game would be green



#18 Aminar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:58 PM

magic g-force inhibitors cover most of the cracks and squished jelly men over pretty well.

 
Ummmm but they don't. 
That's the whole point.
If you have magic g-force inhibitors, you don't have dogfights at all. It doesn't matter how much technobabble you throw at it because it's a logical impossibility. The two are mutually exclusive, because the entire premise of a dogfight is built on limitations imposed by the laws of physics - specifically gravity. If you wave that away with technobabble, you lose the metaphor which makes it cool in the first place and you don't have Star Wars anymore.
In space the limitation is inertia. Same idea. Fighter combat is dogfighting is fighter combat. The tactics change a little in space, but fighter combat still functions.
 
 

 
It's like this:
 
1. You want to get behind your opponent
2. To get there, you need to turn in behind them as sharply as possible
3. The faster your vector, the wider your turn has to be because geometry
4. Hence the slower you can go, the better
 
 
None of this stops being true if you have magic g-force compensators - unless they are infinitely effective.
If they are infinitely effective, it doesn't matter anymore. Whatever you do you can't get behind your opponent because they too have infinitely effective g-force compensators and can maneuver at infinite G's.
I am aware. (Although that has nothing to do woth gravity, that's just an easy way to denote acceleration.) It's inertia. And just because the cockpit is g-force compensated doesn't do anything for the ship and the incredible inertia(and thus slide) of a hard turn when accelerating at 100's or 1000's of Gs in relation to the engine force, the nertia, and however manuevering works in Star Wars. Even with G-Force compensators you can't just spin in place. The engines create momentum(lots of it, which makes turning difficult.) I've never heard of a Star Wars Pilot Whiting out, Redding Out, blacking out etc. Those limitations are gone. That doesn't remove the more mechanical limitations.(Although I'm not saying Star Wars approaches the speeds their ships move at realistically at all, but that G-force effects on pilots are not a factor.

#19 Aminar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:59 PM

they dont have such good G-force compensators, else all the K-turns you see in this game would be green


Stress doesn't need to mean G's. It can just mean it's tricky, mentally taxing, or makes the pilot dizzy.

#20 Introverdant

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:09 PM

It's like this:
 
1. You want to get behind your opponent
2. To get there, you need to turn in behind them as sharply as possible
3. The faster your vector, the wider your turn has to be because geometry
4. Hence the slower you can go, the better
 
 
None of this stops being true if you have magic g-force compensators - unless they are infinitely effective.
If they are infinitely effective, it doesn't matter anymore. Whatever you do you can't get behind your opponent because they too have infinitely effective g-force compensators and can maneuver at infinite G's.
I am aware. (Although that has nothing to do woth gravity, that's just an easy way to denote acceleration.) It's inertia. And just because the cockpit is g-force compensated doesn't do anything for the ship and the incredible inertia(and thus slide) of a hard turn when accelerating at 100's or 1000's of Gs in relation to the engine force, the nertia, and however manuevering works in Star Wars. Even with G-Force compensators you can't just spin in place. The engines create momentum(lots of it, which makes turning difficult.) I've never heard of a Star Wars Pilot Whiting out, Redding Out, blacking out etc. Those limitations are gone. That doesn't remove the more mechanical limitations.(Although I'm not saying Star Wars approaches the speeds their ships move at realistically at all, but that G-force effects on pilots are not a factor.

 

 

Okay.

So to be clear, your objection to my initial post was over the bit about humans being squishy meatbags and not the tactical realities of dogfighting geometry.

 

Misunderstanding fixed!


Edited by Introverdant, 21 April 2014 - 10:10 PM.





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