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Using Force dice twice on one check...what happens?


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#1 yeti1069

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 10:50 PM

So, there are a few examples, within the rules, of how this might occur:

  1. The Overwhelm Emotions talent from Force Sensitive Exile, and a Control Upgrade for Influence both add you Force Rating to Charm, Coercion, and Deception checks
  2. Some uses of the Force (such as another Control Upgrade to Influence) have you roll a Discipline check along with your Force power activation check, while the Invigorate talent from Force Sensitive Emergent adds your Force Rating to Discipline checks

What happens? Do you get to add your Force Rating twice on Charm, Coercion, and Deception checks if you have both the talent and power upgrade? Or does having one make the other useless (and the Influence version appears to be much better than the talent version)?

 

How about for Discipline? Does using Discipline while activating a power preclude your being able to use the Force to improve your Discipline? In this case, at least, one doesn't render the other completely ineffectual, but the talent is certainly not very effective if it doesn't work alongside Force power activations.



#2 Lathrop

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:11 PM

Since it's all part of one check, you're splitting your available dice among whatever talents/powers you have - so you can allocate your three dice, 1 to a power, 2 to a talent, or whatever, not 3 for a power and 3 for a talent.

 

But on top of that, I believe for the specific example of #1, somebody mentioned on here previously that a designer said you're not allowed to use that talent combined with the power anyways.

 

And for #2, Invigorate is meant solely for Discipline/Cool checks to recover strain (such as at the end of encounters), not to try and boost any other types of checks.


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#3 yeti1069

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:46 PM

Since it's all part of one check, you're splitting your available dice among whatever talents/powers you have - so you can allocate your three dice, 1 to a power, 2 to a talent, or whatever, not 3 for a power and 3 for a talent.

 

But on top of that, I believe for the specific example of #1, somebody mentioned on here previously that a designer said you're not allowed to use that talent combined with the power anyways.

 

And for #2, Invigorate is meant solely for Discipline/Cool checks to recover strain (such as at the end of encounters), not to try and boost any other types of checks.

Ah, didn't know about the full text for #2, as I don't have the AoR book, just a transcription of the talent trees, which has its pitfalls, as I now see.

 

Regarding #1, while I can understand that intent, for them not to be used together, it seems odd to have a talent and Force power upgrade that work toward the same thing, but don't work together at all. It's not like there's any reason to use the talent instead of the power upgrade.



#4 Kshatriya

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:52 AM

]Regarding #1, while I can understand that intent, for them not to be used together, it seems odd to have a talent and Force power upgrade that work toward the same thing, but don't work together at all. It's not like there's any reason to use the talent instead of the power upgrade.

 

There is a great reason to use the Talent instead of the power upgrade: not everyone wants to devote XP to the Influence power. Everyone who buys into FSEx thereby has a method to affect others' emotions without buying into a particular Force Power. Not everyone wants Influence, and Overwhelm Emotions provides a different way to get similar results. 


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#5 2P51

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 04:44 PM

 

]Regarding #1, while I can understand that intent, for them not to be used together, it seems odd to have a talent and Force power upgrade that work toward the same thing, but don't work together at all. It's not like there's any reason to use the talent instead of the power upgrade.

 

There is a great reason to use the Talent instead of the power upgrade: not everyone wants to devote XP to the Influence power. Everyone who buys into FSEx thereby has a method to affect others' emotions without buying into a particular Force Power. Not everyone wants Influence, and Overwhelm Emotions provides a different way to get similar results. 

 

Yah, maybe I'm into juggling starships and not interested in witty banter with my enemies.....


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#6 yeti1069

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 07:39 PM

 

 

]Regarding #1, while I can understand that intent, for them not to be used together, it seems odd to have a talent and Force power upgrade that work toward the same thing, but don't work together at all. It's not like there's any reason to use the talent instead of the power upgrade.

 

There is a great reason to use the Talent instead of the power upgrade: not everyone wants to devote XP to the Influence power. Everyone who buys into FSEx thereby has a method to affect others' emotions without buying into a particular Force Power. Not everyone wants Influence, and Overwhelm Emotions provides a different way to get similar results. 

 

Yah, maybe I'm into juggling starships and not interested in witty banter with my enemies.....

 

Getting the Influence version is 30 XP. Getting the FSEx version is 10 XP if you were going to pick up all the talents on the way to it anyway, but it also comes with some drawbacks that the power version doesn't have. Plus, the talent is still essentially a Force power, since it's using your Force rating, and doesn't work on anything immune to the Force. Sense Emotions looks pretty nice, so getting there isn't a great hardship, but it does seem rather redundant on the whole.



#7 Kshatriya

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:06 PM

Overwhelm does create a bigger risk because of how white and black pips only benefit certain checks and are a drawback to others, without the ability to spend Destiny to use Dark Side pips (unlike just using Influence).

 

Hmm, I thought there was another benefit beyond it just being cheaper to get, but I'm not seeing it now.



#8 Lathrop

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:51 PM

Overwhelm does create a bigger risk because of how white and black pips only benefit certain checks and are a drawback to others, without the ability to spend Destiny to use Dark Side pips (unlike just using Influence).

 

Hmm, I thought there was another benefit beyond it just being cheaper to get, but I'm not seeing it now.

 

You're probably thinking of the bigger talent description; you only get 1 failure for every 2 pips that goes against the check you're making, so in general, the odds are in your favor, regardless of the check.


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#9 yeti1069

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:29 PM

 

Overwhelm does create a bigger risk because of how white and black pips only benefit certain checks and are a drawback to others, without the ability to spend Destiny to use Dark Side pips (unlike just using Influence).

 

Hmm, I thought there was another benefit beyond it just being cheaper to get, but I'm not seeing it now.

 

You're probably thinking of the bigger talent description; you only get 1 failure for every 2 pips that goes against the check you're making, so in general, the odds are in your favor, regardless of the check.

 

Still, when you compare it to the Influence upgrade, which has basically no such drawback--presumably, the special rule referring to using white pips for positive emotions, and black for negative still applies, but that's a choice the character makes (and may convert pips at a cost if they so desire), not an inherent penalty.



#10 Jamwes

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:42 AM

I've asked the "double dipping" question of Influence and Overwhelm Emotions before. Sam's response was that it's not allowed. You can see my post thread about it here: http://community.fan...ns/#entry967852

 

Yeti1069, I agree with you that it's silly for them to have both Influence and Overwhelm Emotions and not allow them to work together. Personally, I think it's something that slipped through the cracks during the game design stages. Either they originally wanted them to work together or one was changed at the last minute and no one noticed the overlap. 



#11 2P51

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:38 PM

 

 

 

]Regarding #1, while I can understand that intent, for them not to be used together, it seems odd to have a talent and Force power upgrade that work toward the same thing, but don't work together at all. It's not like there's any reason to use the talent instead of the power upgrade.

 

There is a great reason to use the Talent instead of the power upgrade: not everyone wants to devote XP to the Influence power. Everyone who buys into FSEx thereby has a method to affect others' emotions without buying into a particular Force Power. Not everyone wants Influence, and Overwhelm Emotions provides a different way to get similar results. 

 

Yah, maybe I'm into juggling starships and not interested in witty banter with my enemies.....

 

Getting the Influence version is 30 XP. Getting the FSEx version is 10 XP if you were going to pick up all the talents on the way to it anyway, but it also comes with some drawbacks that the power version doesn't have. Plus, the talent is still essentially a Force power, since it's using your Force rating, and doesn't work on anything immune to the Force. Sense Emotions looks pretty nice, so getting there isn't a great hardship, but it does seem rather redundant on the whole.

 

The Force power is a lot better than the talent, but it is in that Force power tree.  If someone doesn't want that tree, then they can get a less useful application in the talent.  


Edited by 2P51, 14 April 2014 - 12:38 PM.

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#12 yeti1069

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:43 PM


 

And for #2, Invigorate is meant solely for Discipline/Cool checks to recover strain (such as at the end of encounters), not to try and boost any other types of checks.

Oh, and just realized that the Balance talent does this as well (adds Force Rating to your recovery checks at the end of an encounter), so that's where this appears to be redundant if that's the way Invigorate works. But that wouldn't make any sense since both talents can be found in the same tree for FSEm.


Edited by yeti1069, 14 April 2014 - 12:47 PM.


#13 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:12 PM

As for the existence of Overwhelm Emotions and Influence, remember that EotE is just one third of what the FFG design team sees as "the total Star Wars RPG experience."  I doubt every single Force-related specialization is going to have Overwhelm Emotions (the Force Emergent from AoR certainly doesn't), so the ability to pick up the Influence power (which also provides a rather useful offensive ability vs. minions and rivals since the basic effect of the power can be triggered multiple times on the same target) is needed if they want to be able to use the Force to influence folks via social skill checks rather than relying purely upon mind trickery.


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#14 Kshatriya

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:34 PM

 


 

And for #2, Invigorate is meant solely for Discipline/Cool checks to recover strain (such as at the end of encounters), not to try and boost any other types of checks.

Oh, and just realized that the Balance talent does this as well (adds Force Rating to your recovery checks at the end of an encounter), so that's where this appears to be redundant if that's the way Invigorate works. But that wouldn't make any sense since both talents can be found in the same tree for FSEm.

 

Invigorate is frankly terrible by comparison. I have no idea why it was included along with Balance, or not given some actual good effect that was different from Balance if both had to be included in the same tree.



#15 rskrap

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:10 PM

So, there are a few examples, within the rules, of how this might occur:

  1. The Overwhelm Emotions talent from Force Sensitive Exile, and a Control Upgrade for Influence both add you Force Rating to Charm, Coercion, and Deception checks
  2. Some uses of the Force (such as another Control Upgrade to Influence) have you roll a Discipline check along with your Force power activation check, while the Invigorate talent from Force Sensitive Emergent adds your Force Rating to Discipline checks

What happens? Do you get to add your Force Rating twice on Charm, Coercion, and Deception checks if you have both the talent and power upgrade? Or does having one make the other useless (and the Influence version appears to be much better than the talent version)?

 

How about for Discipline? Does using Discipline while activating a power preclude your being able to use the Force to improve your Discipline? In this case, at least, one doesn't render the other completely ineffectual, but the talent is certainly not very effective if it doesn't work alongside Force power activations.

According to the last AOR Beta update, Invigorate = Once per Encounter when an Ally within short range attempts a Skill check using Brawn or Agility the character may roll Force die up to rating. Each "Light" adds "Success"s to the check, but each "Dark" adds "Threat" to the target's check.

It looks like everyone is using the old rules.


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#16 Kshatriya

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:49 PM

Ah I forgot about the update. Still a meh power for the cost though, and by no means guaranteed (with a worse dark pip to Threat ratio than Overwhelm, which is cheaper. Sigh).






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