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An upgrade for a DH Ascension PC in my DW game.


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#1 pearldrum1

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:58 AM

So, one of my favorite PCs in my DW game at the moment is a mortal human Storm Trooper build with a very rich back story. He has solid stats for a human, is a rank 9 DH Ascended character and so far hasn't died.

 

 

I like being very malleable with my players and figuring out how to incorporate these two game systems to the most dynamic and fun expectations has been really rewarding. At the moment, I am considering offering him a gene-therapy treatment (the Inquisitor will actually do this) that would bump his toughness bonus to x1.5 (not as strong as the Astartes unnatural x2 trait, but something within the realm of possibility).

 

My question is, how much XP would you all charge this PC for the procedure? I was thinking anywhere from a boat load to a shlt ton.

 

What do you all think?



#2 Calgor Grim

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:43 AM

I would agree, a metric ton is a good amount. 

 

Current uses of unnatural characteristics from Only War and Black Crusade add to the bonus rather than a multiple. I would imagine that as a human but with some experience you're looking at a base TB of around 4? If you're going to give him UT x 1.5 then this is significantly more powerful than UT+2 as the former scales if they are able to augment their toughness further (for better or worse). Whichever you use the cost would be extreme. 

 

Consider that to get two levels of TB added then a character would need to augment their basic Toughness Stat by 20 points. I would consider charging them two lots of XP equal to their Master level toughness advance plus 25% for the convenience.

 

If you are however allowing them the benefit of Unnatural Toughness x 1.5 then this should be somewhat higher considering the scaling factor and I would again recommend the base stat of double the Master Toughness advance but add 50%.

 

So if the copy of the book in front of me is right, a Master Level upgrade is 2000 xp so option 1 will cost him 5000, Option 2 will cost 6000.

 

Considering that IIRC players can only purchase toughness advances so often and cant keep buying it, this is an expensive but potentially potent upgrade.


Edited by Calgor Grim, 11 April 2014 - 01:49 AM.

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#3 WilliamAsher

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:40 AM

Did you look at Gland Warrior alternate rank from Rogue Trader (Into the Storm I believe)?  The drugs involved will give similar enhancements and the other benifits are substatial.  In your situation the character taking the package makes a lot of sense and it is still done per fluff.  The ability to use combat drugs without the negative penalties does make quite the difference.


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#4 pearldrum1

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:45 PM

I have not seen that. Can you lay out the details for me here?



#5 pearldrum1

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:54 PM

Calgor - I have already added two more Characteristic Upgrades for him to purchase at the Ascension level (4 in total) - You think I should just leave it at that?

 

I am worried about him being a glass cannon - being good at various skills and this and that and then taking one shot and being blown to crap hahaha



#6 Lynata

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:04 PM

I am worried about him being a glass cannon - being good at various skills and this and that and then taking one shot and being blown to crap hahaha

 

I'd actually consider this working as intended. As much as I love ranting about the silly extent of the gap between humans and Marines in Deathwatch, I would on the other hand also find it weird if a human comes too close to the Astartes on the fields where by all rights they ought to have a noticeable advantage - specifically, Toughness and Strength.

 

Consider that Unnatural Traits in this RPG work "a bit weird" in that they only add +10 to a Test, so you might end up with situations where your Storm Trooper with Strength ~70 has a better chance of pulling open a locked door than the Space Marine with Unnatural Strength ~50 next to him...

 

Instead of trying to negate a barrier I'd consider part of the background, my advice would be to work around the disadvantages of the (comparatively) frail human body by using clever tactics and balancing these drawbacks with suitable advantages (better marksmanship? specialist skills? exotic knowledge?).

 

If you're worried about him getting killed too easily (which is a valid concern, given that a Storm Trooper is a combat character, and he's not even wearing powered armour), you could also make him harder to hit, rather than giving him more resistance. A special houseruled trait that reduces his Size by 1 step whenever he's in cover, for example.

 

Another option would be to give your Storm Trooper a squad of NPCs to command, making him Squad Sergeant. Aside from expanding roleplaying potential, this also comes with the added benefit of seeming a lot more likely than a single trooper hanging around with a bunch of Marines.

If you're willing to take a risk, feel free to playtest these rules for me.  :P

(alternatively, just give him a Horde to order around)


Edited by Lynata, 11 April 2014 - 08:07 PM.

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#7 WilliamAsher

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:42 PM

I am not sure I should reproduce it here, but if you can get a glance at Into the Storm it is only two pages.  They are basically immune to poisions, have a built in respirator, and can dose themselves with three combat drugs easily in combat through special glands.  They are also immune to negative side effects of drugs...which means they can use the nastiest combat drugs to get things like unnatural stats for a combat, or a variety of special resistances.  You might also see if he can use specialist weapons like Techxocist Guns and various specialized ammunitions.  If he is working at such a high level in the Inquisition or with Deathwatch it would be reasonable for him to access some of the more rare weapons.  It gives him a better specialist role in combat.


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#8 Calgor Grim

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:25 AM

To be honest, you're worried about him too much. Rather than extreme genetic therapy, I agree with Lynata, he should be working on making himself harder to hit. There are limits on the human anatomy and much of the genetic therapy used on marines doesn't work after a point IIRC, it has to be done soon while the body is developing. If he wanted to toughen himself up he could consider cybernetics or augmentation, there are several good rules for this which can be adapted from DW/BC and probably OW but any sort of genetic alteration is perhaps a little bit dubious. If you want to still apply it then by all means go ahead, this is why people have house rules.

 

However he is still only human and the only thing that keeps any human alive in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium is faith in the God Emperor (or Dark Gods if you're a heretic) and to be quick on your feet (or be bloody lucky). He needs to be able to duck, dodge, get himself into cover and that's the only way he'll be kept alive. If he goes up against a potent Tyranid Warrior or Hive Tyrant for example, no amount of toughness will save himself from a bonesword or a limb tearing through his flesh. No, the true saving test is the ability to duck out the way. He should be looking at things like Step Aside/Wall of Steel and making use of cover and his smaller stature to stay concealed. Humans get no penalties to hiding which gives him an infiltration advantage over anything larger like marines.

 

If he does take nasty hits anyway, this is why he has fate points. If he uses them all up though, that is indeed a sign that the God Emperor has destined it is time for his service to end and he dies courageously. As Agent Smith said: "The purpose of life is to end."


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#9 pearldrum1

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 02:01 AM

 

I am worried about him being a glass cannon - being good at various skills and this and that and then taking one shot and being blown to crap hahaha

 

I'd actually consider this working as intended. As much as I love ranting about the silly extent of the gap between humans and Marines in Deathwatch, I would on the other hand also find it weird if a human comes too close to the Astartes on the fields where by all rights they ought to have a noticeable advantage - specifically, Toughness and Strength.

 

Consider that Unnatural Traits in this RPG work "a bit weird" in that they only add +10 to a Test, so you might end up with situations where your Storm Trooper with Strength ~70 has a better chance of pulling open a locked door than the Space Marine with Unnatural Strength ~50 next to him...

 

Instead of trying to negate a barrier I'd consider part of the background, my advice would be to work around the disadvantages of the (comparatively) frail human body by using clever tactics and balancing these drawbacks with suitable advantages (better marksmanship? specialist skills? exotic knowledge?).

 

If you're worried about him getting killed too easily (which is a valid concern, given that a Storm Trooper is a combat character, and he's not even wearing powered armour), you could also make him harder to hit, rather than giving him more resistance. A special houseruled trait that reduces his Size by 1 step whenever he's in cover, for example.

 

Another option would be to give your Storm Trooper a squad of NPCs to command, making him Squad Sergeant. Aside from expanding roleplaying potential, this also comes with the added benefit of seeming a lot more likely than a single trooper hanging around with a bunch of Marines.

If you're willing to take a risk, feel free to playtest these rules for me.  :P

(alternatively, just give him a Horde to order around)

 

 

 

HELL YEAH.



#10 pearldrum1

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:14 PM

You are definitely right. I agree completely and somehow had not even thought about making him HARDER to hit as oppossed to harder to kill.

 

That is why I have this forum. To stop me from doing overly complicated crap.


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#11 Lynata

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:28 PM

Swarm intelligence strikes again! I feel the same as you.  :lol:


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#12 WilliamAsher

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:02 PM

Don't forget the Conversion field.  50% save means half the hits aren't.  This is particularly useful for those few times he won't be able to avoid the hit.



#13 Annaamarth

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:06 AM

I'm a firm member of the "give him a squad" camp, either as a horde or as a group of henchmen/minions.

 

When I think "rock-hard, badder than bad Imperial," I think Astartes (maybe Black Templar first...)

 

When I think "Dodgy, never gonna hit me Imperial," I think death-cult assassins and Officio Assassinorum.

 

When I think guardsmen, I don't think rock-hard or dodgy.  I think "We brought more guns than you."  Why would a DW killteam have one stormtrooper when they could have a fireteam of five, or a squad of ten?  You never see one Stormtrooper fastrope in from a Valkyrie, and you never see one Stormtrooper stack up on a breaching charge.  If you ever see one stormtrooper infiltrating your cultist hideout, your first thought (after pants-fouling terror) should be "where are his friends?"

 

I would consider using the minion/horde rules from Black Crusade to model allies he could take.  Let him expend XP on filling out a team, rather than giving him the chance to compete with Astartes on their own terms.

 

Edit: Alternatively, use Lynata's rules.  They seem adequate, although perhaps underpowered in DW, as equipping them all with, say, DH hellguns (Source inquisitors handbook) would do 8 damage pen 3 all of the time... so unless rolling Righteous Fury, would never damage anything with 11 armour+TB, which makes them useless against Chaos Space Marines (much less Daemon Princes),  Tau Stealth Suits (much less Tau Commanders), and Tyranid Warriors (much less Hive Tyrants).

 

At first glance, Lyn, your rules seem great for dealing with swarms of little things, but barring an attack roll that brinks the lascannon or plasgun into play I don't see them helping as much with big things.  Is that intentional?

 

I would work up a stat profile using the BC horde/minion rules, and give him the opportunity to make the horde his superior minion (as per Tome of Excess), functionally allowing him to spend his xp to buy squad-wide advances, possibly using the DH guardsmen tree, possibly by using the On War rules to model the "regiment" from which the squad was born and using the Aptitude system.  This would let him buy them talents like Doubleteam and Target Selection- both invaluable for what they're doing.


Edited by Annaamarth, 27 April 2014 - 04:22 AM.

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#14 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:19 AM

Hellguns are fine IMO if you use the Only War/BC version, which is modelled on a newer edition of the TT rather than the IH's bolters that shoot a different-colored thing.



#15 Annaamarth

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:31 PM

Yeah, that ups the pen by 4- that makes them more likely to be effective against elites, though master-level foes will still be problematic.

 

Clearly the solution is to give them all plasguns (and get a good source of reinforcements, for when they start doing their popcorn impression).


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RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

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#16 Lynata

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:03 PM

At first glance, Lyn, your rules seem great for dealing with swarms of little things, but barring an attack roll that brinks the lascannon or plasgun into play I don't see them helping as much with big things.  Is that intentional?

 

Yep! I've been looking for a way to replicate the damage potential their weapons have as per the original profile (I'm soo not a fan of individual attacks "magically" gaining additional d10s just because of volume of fire - if a weapon is useless with one shot, another 20 won't help), whilst simultaneously making these NPCs appear less impressive than player characters (hence the small damage average, as if they'd keep rolling low).

 

That said, do you think I should perhaps raise it to 5 or 6 per d10, compensated by the fact that their damage range is overall less impressive than that of a player? Or are there ways to introduce an element of randomness without it becoming too much of a hassle?

 

Also note that I've already inserted a 10% chance for +5 damage towards a single target. Overall, there's a 30-50% chance (if you equipped it with special/heavy weapons) that a Squad attack will include something nasty!

 

[edit] Thanks for taking a look, by the way - I feel the concept is sound but that they still need a lot of tweaking, so any input is appreciated!


Edited by Lynata, 27 April 2014 - 02:06 PM.

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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#17 pearldrum1

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

When I think guardsmen, I don't think rock-hard or dodgy.  I think "We brought more guns than you."  Why would a DW killteam have one stormtrooper when they could have a fireteam of five, or a squad of ten?  You never see one Stormtrooper fastrope in from a Valkyrie, and you never see one Stormtrooper stack up on a breaching charge.  If you ever see one stormtrooper infiltrating your cultist hideout, your first thought (after pants-fouling terror) should be "where are his friends?"

 

So, he isn't your average Stormtrooper, really. It was just the best suitable Ascension PC block to use to create his character. I think Lynata and I have discussed it before somewhere else, but the guy playing the PC is dedicated and had a stellar back story for this character; I worked it in by having him be a very trusted and important asset of a certain Kill Marine that the Kill Team had to rescue. So far it has been working out really well; the dude is more of a rogue - ex Acolyte type.

 

 

I would consider using the minion/horde rules from Black Crusade to model allies he could take.  Let him expend XP on filling out a team, rather than giving him the chance to compete with Astartes on their own terms.

 

I have not got the Black Crusade books and now I see that I should. I like the idea of him spending XP to make a team. He knew his role was never going to be competing with the Astartes on their terms. As of right now, this settlement they have just rescued has "loaned" him four of their best scouts. I am just going to use a random guardsman template for each scout assigned to him and treat them as individuals for now - until I can get a better system.

 

I read over Lynata's system and I am not really in favor of it. I can't say why. I just wasn't feeling it - I am sorry Lynata, I promise to sacrifice a goat or a child (whichever I can catch) in your name to make up for this grave dishonor.

 

 

Edit: Alternatively, use Lynata's rules.  They seem adequate, although perhaps underpowered in DW, as equipping them all with, say, DH hellguns (Source inquisitors handbook) would do 8 damage pen 3 all of the time... so unless rolling Righteous Fury, would never damage anything with 11 armour+TB, which makes them useless against Chaos Space Marines (much less Daemon Princes),  Tau Stealth Suits (much less Tau Commanders), and Tyranid Warriors (much less Hive Tyrants).

 

At first glance, Lyn, your rules seem great for dealing with swarms of little things, but barring an attack roll that brinks the lascannon or plasgun into play I don't see them helping as much with big things.  Is that intentional?

 

I would work up a stat profile using the BC horde/minion rules, and give him the opportunity to make the horde his superior minion (as per Tome of Excess), functionally allowing him to spend his xp to buy squad-wide advances, possibly using the DH guardsmen tree, possibly by using the On War rules to model the "regiment" from which the squad was born and using the Aptitude system.  This would let him buy them talents like Doubleteam and Target Selection- both invaluable for what they're doing.

 

I think this is the problem I had with it too. I wanted the normal humans to have a CHANCE of doing something in the face of overwhelming odds, regardless of how slim that chance may be. The PC himself has a las carbine that is hitting pretty decently (1d10+7, pen 3) and while it isn't as much as a Bolter, it still has potential to put down something on the fly. The humans attached to him currently won't be hitting that hard; but I am hopeful that once I get my hands on the Black Crusade CRB, I will be able to tweak the squad into something more workable within the rules.

 

I need to read over Only War. Does anyone have the page numbers that would coincide with what we are trying to do here?



#18 Lynata

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:36 PM

I read over Lynata's system and I am not really in favor of it. I can't say why. I just wasn't feeling it - I am sorry Lynata, I promise to sacrifice a goat or a child (whichever I can catch) in your name to make up for this grave dishonor.

 

No worries, I am not yet satisfied with it myself - though that's part of why I want people to check it out. It needs more refinement; right now it's just a (still somewhat clumsy) idea that I feel has value to pursue. :)

 

The Black Crusade Minion idea is a good one, too, by the way. Just be aware that that system is intended to attach a few individual specialist-followers to a PC - its purpose is not to be used for even small military units:

Each Minion is still controlled as an individual entity like any other NPC (which means a lot of dice rolls if you have lots of Minions), and the system largely just governs their strength and how a PC gains them. Which is why the Black Crusade has the number of Minions restricted to their leader's Fel Bonus, and a character gains only a single Minion every time they buy the Talent.

 

In short, you may not actually need BC because Minions aren't exactly what you seem to be looking for here, anyways - you could just as well generate the same number of NPCs using DW RAW and attach them to the character as Permanent Allies.

 

BC has Hordes as well, but they have nothing to do with the Minion system.

 

Although ... the Black Crusade core rulebook actually suggests a number of cheats to balance Hordes against non-Astartes player characters that make them take and deal less damage than a Marine.  :rolleyes: You may find them on page 274.

Not a fan of these guidelines, just as I'm not a fan of Hordes in general, but maybe you find them useful for your game.

 

The PC himself has a las carbine that is hitting pretty decently (1d10+7, pen 3) and while it isn't as much as a Bolter [...]

 

<insert the usual "just give him the Marine stuff" comment here>


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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#19 pearldrum1

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:17 PM

 

<insert the usual "just give him the Marine stuff" comment here>

 

 

You shut up, you! We have talked about this. Don't make me get the hose.

 

For now, I am just going to use the standard imperial guardsmen template, with adjustments based on each scouts personality - which won't end up mattering since I see them dying terribly rather soon. Grim future and such.


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#20 Annaamarth

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 05:54 AM

re: acolyte; so, not a typical stormtrooper, more of a rogue ex-acolyte... that tells me so very, very little.  Does he originate from

 

A) The military?  If so, give him guardsmen cover.

B) The arbites?  If so, give him arbitrators with combat shields, shockmauls and shotguns with special ammo.

C) A Tech-adept background?  If so, give him combat servitors- possibly ones that float.

D) A Naval background?  If so, give him naval support troops- like guardsmen, but with shotguns, possibly with special ammo.

E) The underworld?  If so, was he reformed by...

   1)  An Ecclesiarchal figure?  If so, give him arco-flaggelents.

   2)  A militaristic figure?  If so, give him penal-legionnaires.

   3)  A Tech, Arbitrator or Naval figure?  If so, as appropriate to the background.

 

The follow comes with an "Opinions stated here, your mileage may vary" stamp.

I mean, if we're talking about a lone gunman with a badass longcoat and a lascarbine... he should not be able to keep up with the Astartes in terms of combat.  If he does, you obviate the point of the Astartes and nullify their superhumanity.

 

If you're worried about him keeping up, for one thing ditch the lascarbine and give him a heavier weapon- not Astartes grade, but...

 

If he's beefy enough to take Bulging Biceps, have him do so and let him take an Autocannon.  Don't think of an autocannon in the terms you usually see it, but think of it as God's own sniper rifle, the 40k equivalent to a Barrett .50 rifle reaching out and snuffing out a life.  At 3d10+8 pen 6, That's a carbine that'll make them feel the pain!  Alternatively, if he'd rather fire support and pretend he's a midget devastator who favours rate of fire over damage, he could take a multilaser.  This is how you re-enact these scenes from Predator, but with lasers. 

 

If he isn't beefy but he's pretty agile, and you want him to be a nimbly bimbly little snot, have him take the 2-pistol talents. Then give him a quartet of pistols- 2x hotshot las pistols and, for his special weapon, 2x plasma pistols.  Or 2x melta pistols. That's a lot of gunslinging hate.

 

I'd recommend starting off with a "standard" loadout, similar to what Astartes have, then giving him the chance to upgrade it mission to mission.  If he's the Biceps man, start him off with a heavy stubber.  If not, start with either a hotshot lasrifle or two hotshot laspistols.

 

I still prefer the horde rules, though.

 

Re: Lyn's squad rules; Rather than changing anything else, I'd recommend that each shot that hits must do at least one point of damage after all else- but cannot kill a Master or Elite level foe; similarly a guard who gets righteous fury will deal at least 2 damage (lucky shot to eye or a ***** in the natural armour, kind of like Smaug) after all else, and can kill a master level foe.  Bear in mind that in the tabletop, any jerk with a lasgun can deal a wound on a Hive Tyrant.  This allows the squad of buddies to contribute without stealing the show after an assault marine gets righteous fury with a power sword on a Tau Battlesuit but leaves one hitpoint left... unless one of the squadmates gets righteous fury as well.


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RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played





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