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Rune mastery/ uncontrolled power timing question


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#1 Zaltyre

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 03:56 PM

I'm playing as a Basic II OL against a party containing a Runemaster.

 

The Rune mastery skill reads:

"When you attack with a rune weapon, you may exhaust this card to add 1 surge to the results."

 

Uncontrolled power reads:

"Play this card on a hero after rolling dice. He tests willpower. If he fails, you choose how he spends his surge results..."

 

The heroes argue that I must play uncontrolled power immediately after dice are rolled, and after that point, the runemaster may decide whether or not to exhaust rune mastery until the time the attack is completed (when damage is calculated.)

 

I (not surprisingly) disagree. My thought is that rune mastery must be played before surges are spent- it affects the attack results, and I can wait to see those results before deciding to play uncontrolled power.

 

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. If this has not been addressed before, I can submit it directly to FFG. Thanks!

 



#2 Whitewing

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 05:26 PM

Rune Mastery may be used at any point during the attack, before surges are spent.

 

The heroes are correct.



#3 Greumch

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:35 PM

Since Whitewing probably plays as a runemaster, I have to disagree with him. I think the fact of adding a surge to a result is kind of a part of rolling dice.

The OL logic is good too.

1 - 1.

#4 Sixko

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:40 PM

Combat sequence:

1. Declare Weapon and Target: The attacking player chooses which 
of his equipped weapons to use for this attack and declares the target 
of the attack (a space containing an enemy figure). The player then 
compiles his attack dice into a pool. 
2. Roll Dice: The attacking player rolls his dice pool while the defending 
player rolls all necessary defense dice. If an attack affects multiple 
figures, each figure rolls its defense dice separately.
3. Check Range: When performing a Ranged attack, the attacking 
player must roll enough range to reach the target. 
4. Spend Surges: After rolling the dice, the attacking player may spend 
any surge results to trigger special abilities.
5. Deal Damage: Any damage not canceled by defense dice or other 
effects is applied to each affected figure.

My understanding of this is that you would have to use "Uncontrolled Power" during step 2 but heroes dont have to use the rune master skill until step 4.


#5 BentoSan

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:04 AM

I don't know of a previous ruling on this and I'd like to hear an official answer myself.

#6 Zaltyre

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:51 AM

 

My understanding of this is that you would have to use "Uncontrolled Power" during step 2 but heroes dont have to use the rune master skill until step 4.

 

I openly admit possible OL bias, but I disagree. He isn't spending a surge to use a special ability, he is exhausting a card to augment the dice roll. In my eyes, that should clearly happen during step 2, while uncontrolled power gets played between steps 2 and 3- "after dice are rolled," but before other things. 


Edited by Zaltyre, 07 April 2014 - 10:51 AM.


#7 griton

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:30 AM

Since Whitewing probably plays as a runemaster, I have to disagree with him.

Ad hominem logical fallacy. If you can't directly attack his logic, don't resort to saying he's wrong because he is <insert conveniently attackable quality here>.

 

Whitewing is correct in that Rune Mastery may be used at any point before surges are spent. That doesn't however necessarily mean that the Overlord MUST play his card IMMEDIATELY after the dice are rolled.

 

We could look in The Golden Rules on p. 18:

Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved.

However, it's still a bit vague because can you choose to NOT resolve Rune Mastery after it's been exhausted? I'd say no. The order doesn't really change things here, and I also believe that surges are spent "all at once, but in order", so you can't have some surges spent, play the cards and the OL gets to choose the order of the rest.

 

The important part that we're unsure of is where "after dice are rolled" can be used. I believe that so long as the attack has not fully resolved, it can be played at any time during the attack after the dice have been rolled, which means even after the Runemaster has exhausted Rune Mastery. Unfortunately I can't currently find any specific clarification from FFG on this.

 

As such, it might be best to submit a question via the Rules Questions link at the bottom of the page.


Edited by griton, 07 April 2014 - 11:32 AM.

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#8 thedremak

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:24 PM

Make sure to let us know if you find the answer.

#9 Inspector Jee

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:13 PM

I agree with Griton. 

 

Either is allowed to wait and see what the other does and either is allowed to respond to the other's ability with his/her ability.  This kind of situation creates so many awesome strategy choices that I can only conclude that its existence is intentional.  For instance, the Runemaster can simply decide that he's not going to use Rune Mastery until the Uncontrolled Power is used up, but this runs the risk of not getting to use it at all.  Conversely, the Overlord can choose not to play Uncontrolled Power until the Runemaster activates his extra surge, but then he runs of never being able to the play the card if the Runemaster is simply willing to live without his extra surge.  It's a Princess-Bride-style stand-off, and it makes the game much more interesting.

 

Ultimately, the player who is more willing to let combat go through unmolested is in a better position.

 

When my wife was playing a Hexer she decided that, given her gear and powers, if she could keep her number of surges from equaling exactly 2, it really marginalized Uncontrolled Power.  I wasn't willing to play it when she rolled 1, but if she rolled 3 or more she could eat the damage and still do what she needed.  She had Mana Weave, so this wasn't difficult.  Rune Mastery makes it even less difficult.  In a way, its actually a counter to some of the dire effects of Uncontrolled Power.

 

- Jee


Edited by Inspector Jee, 07 April 2014 - 02:13 PM.


#10 Greumch

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:16 AM

 

Since Whitewing probably plays as a runemaster, I have to disagree with him.

 

Ad hominem logical fallacy. If you can't directly attack his logic, don't resort to saying he's wrong because he is <insert conveniently attackable quality here>.

 

 

I didn't say he was wrong, I said I didn't agree. And I did not agree only because what he said was not founded. And I dont think the OP was just here to choose the most liked answer. He wanted "the" official answer to solve a conflict he had to face.

 

Quoting the golden rule is way more constructive. By the way, I own the game in a foreign language : does the Rune mastery roughly says :

 

When you attack with a rune weapon, you may exhaust this card to add 1 surge to the results

 

?

 

Because this could mean you have to play it before rolling the dice...


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#11 Zaltyre

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:55 AM

I own the game in a foreign language : does the Rune mastery roughly says :

 

When you attack with a rune weapon, you may exhaust this card to add 1 surge to the results

 

?

 

Because this could mean you have to play it before rolling the dice...

 

Yes, that's the wording on the card. In the OP, you can also see the wording on "uncontrolled power," which specifies "after rolling dice." In any case, I've submitted the question to FFG. When I get a response, I'll post it here.



#12 griton

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:54 AM

When you attack with a rune weapon, you may exhaust this card to add 1 surge to the results

 

?

 

Because this could mean you have to play it before rolling the dice...

It does, but that doesn't mean it has to be played before rolling dice. Some cards say "before rolling dice", some say "after rolling dice". If a card doesn't say anything relating to the dice roll, then it can be used at any point during the resolution of the attack. (Though it doesn't make any sense to use it after the Spend Surges phase of the attack resolution.)



#13 Whitewing

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:41 AM

Since Whitewing probably plays as a runemaster, I have to disagree with him. I think the fact of adding a surge to a result is kind of a part of rolling dice.

The OL logic is good too.

1 - 1.

 

Just so we're clear, I almost always play overlord, no bias present.

 

Griton and I are in agreement (read the post directly above this one).



#14 Carbini

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:17 PM

I haven't played against a runemaster while using Basic II but this kind of came up with us regarding mana weave. We personaly played it as sort of a mini-game of bluffing. "Oh you want to exhaust that mana weave? Could be a bad ideeeeeeaaaaa..." and then the OL card could be played in reaction (even though this game doesn't specificaly work like that, both are played "after" rolling the dice) so it's kind of like a standoff/fear.

 

Reading the card though, and as someone who OLs most of the time so yes I've got a bias I would think the runemaster has to exhaust the card at step one, adding a surge to a blind dice roll.

 

Also something that has always bugged me about the combat order: why is check range before spend surges? There are surge abilities that extend range, but technically if you are supposed to check range before the surges it wouldn't matter? It's pretty obvious how this is supposed to work and I'm sure everyone just floats by it without worrying and uses surges to extend range as intended, but it still seems odd to specifically place it there.



#15 Whitewing

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:19 PM

I haven't played against a runemaster while using Basic II but this kind of came up with us regarding mana weave. We personaly played it as sort of a mini-game of bluffing. "Oh you want to exhaust that mana weave? Could be a bad ideeeeeeaaaaa..." and then the OL card could be played in reaction (even though this game doesn't specificaly work like that, both are played "after" rolling the dice) so it's kind of like a standoff/fear.

 

Reading the card though, and as someone who OLs most of the time so yes I've got a bias I would think the runemaster has to exhaust the card at step one, adding a surge to a blind dice roll.

 

Also something that has always bugged me about the combat order: why is check range before spend surges? There are surge abilities that extend range, but technically if you are supposed to check range before the surges it wouldn't matter? It's pretty obvious how this is supposed to work and I'm sure everyone just floats by it without worrying and uses surges to extend range as intended, but it still seems odd to specifically place it there.

 

There is a specific rules exception for surges that add range.


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#16 Carbini

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:25 PM

Ahhh "unless the range can be increased"

 

Thanks, good eyes. I must have swept by that.:)



#17 The Thing In The Attic

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

I agree with Griton. 

 

Either is allowed to wait and see what the other does and either is allowed to respond to the other's ability with his/her ability.  This kind of situation creates so many awesome strategy choices that I can only conclude that its existence is intentional.  For instance, the Runemaster can simply decide that he's not going to use Rune Mastery until the Uncontrolled Power is used up, but this runs the risk of not getting to use it at all.  Conversely, the Overlord can choose not to play Uncontrolled Power until the Runemaster activates his extra surge, but then he runs of never being able to the play the card if the Runemaster is simply willing to live without his extra surge.  It's a Princess-Bride-style stand-off, and it makes the game much more interesting.

 

Ultimately, the player who is more willing to let combat go through unmolested is in a better position.

 

When my wife was playing a Hexer she decided that, given her gear and powers, if she could keep her number of surges from equaling exactly 2, it really marginalized Uncontrolled Power.  I wasn't willing to play it when she rolled 1, but if she rolled 3 or more she could eat the damage and still do what she needed.  She had Mana Weave, so this wasn't difficult.  Rune Mastery makes it even less difficult.  In a way, its actually a counter to some of the dire effects of Uncontrolled Power.

 

- Jee

I agree here 

and remember in this surge thwarting stand-off the hero players won't know what the Overlord is holding unless they have used an ability that lets them see the Overlords hand of cards. The overlord should keep quiet, wait for the surge adding action then Bam! play the card and surge-dictate away.

The use of the phrase after dice are rolled is to clarify the cards use. the rules all state that surges are spent after all dice are rolled. even defense dice. so presumably is allowing the overlord to make his defense roll before committing to spending the o/l card.  Same goes for the Rune Mastery they can wait right up to after the defense roll before deciding to add the surge.

 

Once the hero's know the overlord has that card they should wait till they roll a natural surge and then add a surge using the mastery skill. that way they protect at least one surge.

I don't think the overlord can force someone to recover stamina if they have no stamina to recover so the card isn't all powerful it just stops say a +3 damage surge if the weapon also has a stun surge for example or recovering stamina if they have stamina damage.


Edited by The Thing In The Attic, 08 April 2014 - 12:59 PM.


#18 griton

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:43 AM

Reading the card though, and as someone who OLs most of the time so yes I've got a bias I would think the runemaster has to exhaust the card at step one, adding a surge to a blind dice roll.

Except that it doesn't specify "before dice are rolled" (like cards which must be used at the beginning of an attack do) or "(action): exhaust to make an attack that gains 1 surge". It also doesn't specify "after dice are rolled". Generally speaking, if it doesn't specify, the player gets to choose when during the triggering condition it happens (in this case, at any point during the attack).



#19 Zaltyre

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:27 PM

 

Reading the card though, and as someone who OLs most of the time so yes I've got a bias I would think the runemaster has to exhaust the card at step one, adding a surge to a blind dice roll.

Except that it doesn't specify "before dice are rolled" (like cards which must be used at the beginning of an attack do) or "(action): exhaust to make an attack that gains 1 surge". It also doesn't specify "after dice are rolled". Generally speaking, if it doesn't specify, the player gets to choose when during the triggering condition it happens (in this case, at any point during the attack).

 

I'm not suggesting it's supposed to be "before dice are rolled," I'm just not so sure it's any time during the attack, and whether the window to play "after dice are rolled" ends before the time to exhaust rune mastery does.



#20 Carbini

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:10 PM

 

Reading the card though, and as someone who OLs most of the time so yes I've got a bias I would think the runemaster has to exhaust the card at step one, adding a surge to a blind dice roll.

Except that it doesn't specify "before dice are rolled" (like cards which must be used at the beginning of an attack do) or "(action): exhaust to make an attack that gains 1 surge". It also doesn't specify "after dice are rolled". Generally speaking, if it doesn't specify, the player gets to choose when during the triggering condition it happens (in this case, at any point during the attack).

 

I feel you on this one griton, but I'm going by the language because it doesn't read as "during your attack." The phrase "when you attack with a rune weapon..." does seem loose, especialy for FFG rules (oh I've played quite a bit of twilight imperium) but it just reads to me like: "When you decide to attack, get a bonus"

 

I guess it's loose enough wording that you could rule it either way between groups until there's an official answer.






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