Jump to content



Photo

Difficulty once you're at 3 yellow


  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#1 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 5,101 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:49 PM

We just played out a battle with the following:

2 Greatswords (advanced soldiers with sigmar's hammer action)

4 soldiers

6 ruffians

2 Advanced specialist NPCs

 

PCs

Rank 3 fop (6 fellowship)

Rank 3 Knight Griffon

Rank 3 Sigmar priest

Rank 3 thief, gambler

 

They had no player characters drop in combat.  The Fop was able to multiple influence the ruffians and one advanced specialist. The others were obliterated by the PCs.



#2 valvorik

valvorik

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,967 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 02:19 PM

When PC's got that good in my game, I was - among other things - always using main foes with modifiers on them of "add challenge die to all actions targeting" and/or situational mods doing the same.



#3 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 5,101 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 05:15 PM

That's a good idea.  I was just running some stats on those situations.  Typically, I have a 2 balck defense on most baddies, but I may bump to 2 bk plus a purple.  That brings success down to 70% against the big baddies.  They'll still be running 89-91% (the equivalent of having to get a 3 or better for those of us who think in d20 terms).  It also declines the number of crits and big line damage inflicted on the bosses as well.

 

jh



#4 Preacherman

Preacherman

    Member

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 05:17 PM

That's a good idea.  I was just running some stats on those situations.  Typically, I have a 2 balck defense on most baddies, but I may bump to 2 bk plus a purple.  That brings success down to 70% against the big baddies.  They'll still be running 89-91% (the equivalent of having to get a 3 or better for those of us who think in d20 terms).  It also declines the number of crits and big line damage inflicted on the bosses as well.

 

jh

 

How do you give most baddies 2 def? Do they all have shields?



#5 valvorik

valvorik

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,967 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 08:20 PM

I simply created a "Potent" modifier - plus Challenge die - to apply to things at times.

 

Also gave foes advance and improved defence actions at times.

 

Fights in snow storms, mist, bad lighting, high winds also created modifiers for various PC's and forms of attacks.


Edited by valvorik, 05 April 2014 - 08:20 PM.


#6 Preacherman

Preacherman

    Member

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 09:15 PM

You guys know best, but it seems to me like as you progress, you do want things to become slightly easier. As a player, if I'm having as much trouble in combat at rank 3 as I am at rank 1, that doesn't mean it's "scaled well", it means there is absolutely no reward.

 

Especially in WFRP where it's not easy staying alive and reaching rank 3, once you do, you sort of expect the reward of having an easier time in encounters, otherwise it feels as if you're being ripped off. 

 

It annoyed me to no end that as I progressed and got better, there was always something kicking me back down. Either the rain in Stormdorf, the effects of Morrslieb in Liber Mutatis, or the effects of Morrslieb in Edge of Night. Just when I was finally ok, and could cast spells unimpeded, WARPSTONE !!! Dum dum duuuuum.

 

Come on, seriously? That's just shoddy writing/gm-ing. Give me difficulties in social situations, since I've got a mostly combat oriented character, not in freaking combat. Do you also add 1 purple and 2 blacks on top of normal difficulties to all Fellowship checks for your party's face, regardless of what he's talking to?



#7 k7e9

k7e9

    Member

  • Members
  • 850 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:27 PM

You guys know best, but it seems to me like as you progress, you do want things to become slightly easier. As a player, if I'm having as much trouble in combat at rank 3 as I am at rank 1, that doesn't mean it's "scaled well", it means there is absolutely no reward.

 

Especially in WFRP where it's not easy staying alive and reaching rank 3, once you do, you sort of expect the reward of having an easier time in encounters, otherwise it feels as if you're being ripped off. 

 

I agree with you in part. It should be much easier if you take on similar foes as you did at rank 1. But when you're at rank 3 you're able to take on much more dangerous foes, which would up the difficulty.  And to my mind it is not that strange that adventurers would go on more dangerous quests as they become better.

 

For example, my players would not want to continue hunting bandits as they progressed, they would want higher risk and rewards, going after mutant cults, demons, dragons and so on instead. That way the difficulty increases, but I would not scale any random bandits to the PCs level just so that they can  keep beeing challenging in combat.



#8 GMmL

GMmL

    Member

  • Members
  • 192 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 06:07 AM

You guys know best, but it seems to me like as you progress, you do want things to become slightly easier. As a player, if I'm having as much trouble in combat at rank 3 as I am at rank 1, that doesn't mean it's "scaled well", it means there is absolutely no reward.

 

Especially in WFRP where it's not easy staying alive and reaching rank 3, once you do, you sort of expect the reward of having an easier time in encounters, otherwise it feels as if you're being ripped off. 

 

It annoyed me to no end that as I progressed and got better, there was always something kicking me back down. Either the rain in Stormdorf, the effects of Morrslieb in Liber Mutatis, or the effects of Morrslieb in Edge of Night. Just when I was finally ok, and could cast spells unimpeded, WARPSTONE !!! Dum dum duuuuum.

 

Come on, seriously? That's just shoddy writing/gm-ing. Give me difficulties in social situations, since I've got a mostly combat oriented character, not in freaking combat. Do you also add 1 purple and 2 blacks on top of normal difficulties to all Fellowship checks for your party's face, regardless of what he's talking to?

 

I hear D20 talking there :)

 

It's all about finding a balance and listening to the table. There are few things less frustrating than a player telling you they aren't challenged or watching them take out an hour of prep with one swing of the axe. Sure that's satisfying for the player the first few times but then they've done it. Many stats as written are not set for long-term play. I believe players should definitely be rewarded for surviving in a non-heroic game, but at one point or another you simply have to adjust the blocks to fine tune the challenge or players get bored.

 

I think one of the GM 101 mantras is "if there's little-to-no chance of failure then don't roll the dice."


Edited by GMmL, 06 April 2014 - 06:09 AM.

  • cronevald likes this

#9 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 5,101 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:56 AM

 

That's a good idea.  I was just running some stats on those situations.  Typically, I have a 2 balck defense on most baddies, but I may bump to 2 bk plus a purple.  That brings success down to 70% against the big baddies.  They'll still be running 89-91% (the equivalent of having to get a 3 or better for those of us who think in d20 terms).  It also declines the number of crits and big line damage inflicted on the bosses as well.

 

jh

 

How do you give most baddies 2 def? Do they all have shields?

 

 

A/C/E die as bonus defense is my general approach on top of whatever is listed on their stat block and an active defense (they are NOT already calculated in).  It's already so easy to hit normally that it's practically a waste of time to bother rolling (and my game time is too limited to bore away my life with meaningless checks).  I like keeping it in the 70% range to keep up the illusion that the dice actually matter ;)

 

 

 

 

It annoyed me to no end that as I progressed and got better, there was always something kicking me back down. Either the rain in Stormdorf, the effects of Morrslieb in Liber Mutatis, or the effects of Morrslieb in Edge of Night. Just when I was finally ok, and could cast spells unimpeded, WARPSTONE !!! Dum dum duuuuum.

Come on, seriously? That's just shoddy writing/gm-ing. Give me difficulties in social situations, since I've got a mostly combat oriented character, not in freaking combat. Do you also add 1 purple and 2 blacks on top of normal difficulties to all Fellowship checks for your party's face, regardless of what he's talking to?

 

 

No, not that, but when success approaches 96%, I'm not going to bother having them roll the dice.  As PCs start at 85% success and increase 5% with each additional white die, there's no challenge to this game (or any game) unless the GM presents appropriate challenges.  I don't have time to waste dic7ing around with a Rank 4 character combat with snotlings.

 

I can appreciate that a player will not want to think that the peasants and ruffians have scaled up with him, but again, it's my job as a GM to throw challenges at the PCs, not let them sit there and twerp-off while pushing the win-button.  Plus, this isn't D&D.   Characters in WFRP should NEVER be as tough as a Dragon just because they killed a bunch of goblins and took their stuff (in my Warhammer World).  They should have MORE OPTIONS, not just be a big, fat bully on the street who can knock-off town guards on a whim and give them wedgies like in d20.  

 

In relation to video gaming, I recall KOTOR, where the Sand people babies leveled up with the PC.  20th level?  So are the Tuscan Raider babies.  What's the point of leveling up?  This is the example you're talking about and I didn't appreciate that either..so it doesn't happen in my games.  I need to have appropriate challenges though.  That's good GMing.  Entitling a player to bully peasants and pick lock every door with his nose-hairs b/c he leveled up is not good GMing.

 

 

 

 

jh


Edited by Emirikol, 06 April 2014 - 10:11 AM.

  • GMmL likes this

#10 thePREdiger

thePREdiger

    Member

  • Members
  • 164 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:53 AM

My PCs complain about combat - they are around rank4. Combats get pointless with "normal" NPCs, since they become a time sink with bloated dicepools just to come to the inevitable conclusion of utter defeat of the NPCs. 

 

On the other hand - i can't scale every common ruffian to epic proportion just to have the satisfaction to land 1 hit.

Normal combat looks like this in our group:

 

Archer uses "Shoot now, ask questions later" at initiative, followed by "Me First"-Reaction (if he isnt 1st ini anyway) using Rapid Shot. This normally a sure death for at least 2 NPCs.


Edited by thePREdiger, 06 April 2014 - 11:53 AM.


#11 r_b_bergstrom

r_b_bergstrom

    Member

  • Members
  • 505 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:43 PM

The characters at my table have recently crossed into Rank 4  Epic territory. They still seem plenty fragile to me. Sure, they've won every fight I've ever thrown at them, but they pick up a lot of Crits in the process.

 

Last session, they lead off with to "Me First" and "Warning Shot", then replied to the first attack with "Riposte" and something else that triggers when you take a crit. Basically, the monsters "won" initiative, but the PCs got four attacks before the second monster could go. Despite all that, one PC ended the fight at 2 normal wounds away from the KO+autoCrit that would kill him, and another took 10 wounds and 3 crits.

 

Most of our fights go something like that. I've KO'd the Knight and the Trollslayer more times than I can count, but always one of the less foolhardy characters survives to patch them up. Then they spend a couple days tip-toe-ing around to avoid battle until the Resilience checks (and blessings if they can buy them from a local Temple) finally solve the crits.  It works.

 

I do have one house-rule in play that might be contributing to their squishiness. I allow PCs to spend their one mandatory Wound advance on any threshold they want: Wounds, Shame, or Corruption. As a result, two of the PCs are 1 or 2 wounds shy of what they'd otherwise have available.


  • k7e9 likes this

#12 k7e9

k7e9

    Member

  • Members
  • 850 posts

Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:06 AM

I do have one house-rule in play that might be contributing to their squishiness. I allow PCs to spend their one mandatory Wound advance on any threshold they want: Wounds, Shame, or Corruption. As a result, two of the PCs are 1 or 2 wounds shy of what they'd otherwise have available.

 

That's a good houserule. I think I'll use it in my group. :)



#13 princeearwig

princeearwig

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:32 AM

It is also extremely dependent on the PC's.

In our regular game my Wardancer, Mortelis, is now sitting at 35 xp and is thus tier 4.

We're using the wonderful advanced careers that were recently published with a slight change to the Bladesinger career (as the Career ability as written s OP)

I am regularly throwing out defence pools of 1 purple (Improved Dodge) and 11 black (various active defences including Shadows Coil with a decent stance rating).

In a recent climactic battle scene he had a defence pool of 10 black with "NO" active defences operating (thanks in part to a conservative Vipers Dance (I think) and a load of Ritual Dances on recharge).

 

He got the killing blow in on the big bad and was promptly taken down to 3 crits (on a 3 Toughness) and 0 wounds by the aforementioned baddies dying blow.

 

Even higher level PC's are still relatively squishy against the correct opponent. It all depends on what KIND of character they are.

 

The Ironbreaker NEVER has this problem though :D



#14 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 5,101 posts

Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:28 AM

 

I do have one house-rule in play that might be contributing to their squishiness. I allow PCs to spend their one mandatory Wound advance on any threshold they want: Wounds, Shame, or Corruption. As a result, two of the PCs are 1 or 2 wounds shy of what they'd otherwise have available.

 

That's a good houserule. I think I'll use it in my group. :)

 

 

Mine is that we don't use fortune characteristic dice, so those advances can be spent on anything.

 

jh


  • k7e9 likes this

#15 valvorik

valvorik

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,967 posts

Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:27 AM

Re "as you progress something kicks you back down"

 

Part of what I like about WFRP is that instead of +10 and -10 is zero (whoo hooo, look at my bonus on attacks with d20 roll, oh crap look at the number I have to roll to hit), you get a "broadening distribution of good and bad".  When the challenge and misfortune dice zero out those multiple comets and successes really kick ass!!!!  But even then, 2 chaos stars, ouchie.

 

This is the benefit of difficulty being "dice" not "target numbers" and of the "2-axis/not all cancelled" approach of success/failure - boon/bane - chaos star.

 

Similarly foes get the same benefits as they become more poweful of being "really effective" - issue is mainly keeping them on stage long enough to show it (need hordes of cannon fodder to take one for their master etc.)

 

I found at high levels rather than "stalemating" the way I ran it PC's were ferociously good at taking things down but still got handed crits and corruption and such.  You are never "superhuman" in that you can take anything and keep going. 

 

Utlimately one reason I cut it off and restarted was that being both "really effective" and dealing with "really effective foes" was making it like a nuclear war - not a stalemate but tipping so far one way or other less interesting after a while.



#16 GMmL

GMmL

    Member

  • Members
  • 192 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:25 AM

 

Utlimately one reason I cut it off and restarted was that being both "really effective" and dealing with "really effective foes" was making it like a nuclear war - not a stalemate but tipping so far one way or other less interesting after a while.

A cut off point is eventually smart. I plan on running my current group up through 4 or so with smaller modules and then start them over for Enemy Within.



#17 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 5,101 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:40 AM

This begs a question:

Do we really need any 4th or 5th rank careers?

 

Optionally: It may be fun to start a character at an intermediate or advanced career, but with at beginner stats/WSTA scores.

 

jh



#18 valvorik

valvorik

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,967 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:34 PM

I didn't find things getting out of hand needing to be cut off till well after 5th.  That was when it got very "nuclear".



#19 GMmL

GMmL

    Member

  • Members
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:42 AM

This begs a question:

Do we really need any 4th or 5th rank careers?

 

Optionally: It may be fun to start a character at an intermediate or advanced career, but with at beginner stats/WSTA scores.

 

jh

You know, outside of a few rank 4 or 5 spells there's really not much happening after 3, is there?



#20 herrquisling

herrquisling

    Member

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 02:44 PM

We're at rank 4 (or perhaps 5, the players keep count themselves, whilst I try to manage the adventure) and I find that the characters are about as good as they'll get. No more action cards needed (the sorceress might need a few, but since she's so often been something else and is one of the druids she's not really a combat-type anyway). Talents are often still good but there hasen't been any new with a serious game impact for a while. Wounds has actually become the premier choice since being hit is a constant even though all or almost all serious effects are avoided due to one character being a supreme defender (advance block, bodyguard, improved guarded position et.c.) and all the rest has got at least one good improved defense. 

 

So is much happening? Not really, or at least it's slower now at rank 4. But since this is end-of-the-line for us, that's fine. The things is that this is exactly what we have liked about the game mechanics, rapid character advancement. In most rpgs we've played, you're not getting anywhere with your characters in game terms. Here, in wfrp, character development (in role-playing terms) has to be forced in order to match character advancement (in game-mechanical terms).

 

And really, to get to rank 4 you need to spend more than half a year of regular sessions and staying alive, so haven't the characters/players earned the right to shine!? (yes, you might say, but they have peaked and so where did the fun go? well, start over if you feel that way, since I can't really see where to go on after rank 4 or so)


Edited by herrquisling, 13 April 2014 - 02:44 PM.

/herrquisling





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS