Jump to content



Photo

Obligation, Duty, The Force?


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#21 Krieger22

Krieger22

    Member

  • Members
  • 754 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 06:40 AM

Yeah, however it works I don't think they'll name it Destiny. That could get it mixed up with Destiny points, which is already an established mechanic in the game. I'm guessing a new name for the concept - Commitment sounds good, but it could be anything.


  • Doc, the Weasel likes this

#22 Greymere

Greymere

    Member

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:51 AM

My vote is neither Commitment or Destiny but, Temptation.

 

Force Users will be Tempted by the Dark Side of the Force, non Force Users could experience temptation in other ways, receiving a trade off of getting something they desire with negative consequences that become increasingly more difficult the higher the Temptation Score becomes.



#23 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 6,188 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:59 AM

My vote is neither Commitment or Destiny but, Temptation.

 

Force Users will be Tempted by the Dark Side of the Force, non Force Users could experience temptation in other ways, receiving a trade off of getting something they desire with negative consequences that become increasingly more difficult the higher the Temptation Score becomes.

This sounds like a 'stick' motivation like Obligation. In fact, you could just as easily do this with Obligation once you figure out a good name to call it by.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#24 That Blasted Samophlange

That Blasted Samophlange

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,479 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 04:45 PM

Donovan had a point that most people seem to think that it will be all force users all the time in the game. I've been a proponent for careers and specialties being, for lack of a better term, generic. What I mean is no Jedi career. No Sith career. No dathomiri witch career. We have careers that don't spell out a particular tradition, instead, we get careers that are supplemented with universal specialties, and I hope the commitment mechanic - which while I gave a brief description of how it could work with a Jedi, but does not have to be limited to a force using character. We could have a commitment to the antarian rangers in eu, who aided the Jedi but were not force users.

We can already have powerful force users along a 'self taught' path. The commitment can be used to mechanically represent and follow the tenents of say the Jedi order.

One could easily devise a commitment to the idea of peace. Even war or what not.

I see f&d being a way to build characters who either are not force users or who come to it later in life, but at the same time being able to make a Jedi who survived order 66 to another force tradition like a gand findsman or countless other force users.
You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of EU.

#25 mouthymerc

mouthymerc

    Not the member you are looking for!

  • Members
  • 1,818 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:06 AM

I'd be very surprised to not see a Jedi career of some sort. FFG will want something there for those coming into the game wanting to play Jedi. They are not going to want it to be too convoluted. If someone wants to play a Jedi, take this career and choose your spec and a power or talent or two, done. They are not going to want "take this career and choose your spec, now choose a Force unispec, and don't forget to save XP for buying powers". That'd be much like they have it now, and I do not think that will satisfy many people that want Jedi or more in depth Force-users. I think there will be options in careers, specs (both career and unispecs), and in the Commitment mechanic for fleshing out your Jedi. By spreading these options out it will allow for the most latitude in character creation.


People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell


#26 TarlSS

TarlSS

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:24 AM

Well..

They kind of mucked up calling the Destiny Mechanic the Destiny mechanic, since that would be perfect. Too bad it's already taken.

 

I would say that it would go

 

Obligation

Duty

Code

 

This makes perfect sense and progression to me.

 

Outlaws have obligations, not too binding. You can buy it off.

 

Servicemen have a Duty, binding, but legal in nature and very..materialistic. You do your duty, and after X tours or X years, you go back to being a normal person.

 

Code is spiritual, binding, the core of someone's being. You live your code until death. If your code changes, it's practically like a spiritual rebirth- you're pretty much a new person.

 

This makes the most sense to me. You have the Sith Code, the Jedi Code, or..you know, some random Force User's code. If you deviate from the Code, you get X penalty. The penalty is probably similar to Obligation's strain hit, but worse. You can change your code if you have some kind of 'altering event' such as being Redeemed to the Light, or Turned to the Darkside.

 

I would change the mechanic so that obviously 'good codes' are harder to follow than 'evil codes' but they provide a mechanical benefit, whereas evil codes probably just screw you.

 

Following a code will probably net you some kind of benefit of some kind, just like Obligation. So maybe you get +10 XP or something.

 

So if you follow the Sith Code, it works like Obligation. If your number comes up, you lose strain threshold, no choice in the matter.

 

If you follow the Jedi Code, if your number comes up..as long as you adhere to the code, no strain damage. Deviate, and you do. At this point the GM is supposed to strongly tempt you to deviate, because well, strain damage isn't such a big deal and people with Obligations take the hit anyway.

 

That way we illustrate that the Dark Side is the quick and easy path, but it will randomly screw you,because you're bad and being bad is easy, while the Jedi path is hard but rewarding.

 

Since these are Codes we are talking about, I anticipate the Bonus/Penalties will of course be greater in magnitude than Obligation. Maybe instead of strain damage, you might be getting some stat damage or something more serious, and your bonus instead might be like an extra Force Die or Destiny Point.


Edited by TarlSS, 07 April 2014 - 08:36 AM.

  • Morgonzo likes this

#27 That Blasted Samophlange

That Blasted Samophlange

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,479 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:32 AM

The main reason I am against a Jedi career is that we have seen so many different Jedi , so how do you represent them all? Not every Jedi is a great pilot, but most we see on screen fly ships. Not all Jedi are greay lightsaber experts, certainly not the librarian. While yes, this system let's you take specialties ourside your career, the career specialties represent the core, and common paths. Which, what represents the most common path? Jedi are too varied.

Next, if a Jedi career is availiable, does it give a force rating? Do the specialties? How about other careers and specs? If some do and some don't, certain careers become 'better'.

The term Jedi has a certain weight to it. If a Jedi career is implemented, I suspect many people will choose that because they will see the word Jedi and ignore the other careers.

There are other people that use lightsabers. Sith, jensasrai, etc. Do they get careers? Nightsisters? Baren Do? Findsman? In my opinion better to have 'generic' careers and an overarching method to call yourself a Jedi (or any force tradition) than risk having to make careers of limited appeal.

I also doubt they FFG will change up how the career/spec and mechanics operate. It would be more work for them, and mess with any compatibility they hope for between all three lines.
  • Kshatriya likes this
You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of EU.

#28 Atraangelis

Atraangelis

    Member

  • Members
  • 310 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:39 AM

"Destiny" hands down...


Obsidian Portal:Unforeseen Fates

#29 mouthymerc

mouthymerc

    Not the member you are looking for!

  • Members
  • 1,818 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 09:48 AM

The main reason I am against a Jedi career is that we have seen so many different Jedi , so how do you represent them all? Not every Jedi is a great pilot, but most we see on screen fly ships. Not all Jedi are greay lightsaber experts, certainly not the librarian. While yes, this system let's you take specialties ourside your career, the career specialties represent the core, and common paths. Which, what represents the most common path? Jedi are too varied.
 

Having one career broken into three specs would not take away from anything. The three specs could be Guardian (warrior), Consular (Scholar), and Sentinel (Jack of Trades). Still leaving people to take other specs to flesh out their character. So your librarian could take Consular as a base then other specs like scholar or archeologist or whatever. Everything you want can still be done even with a Jedi career.

 

Next, if a Jedi career is availiable, does it give a force rating? Do the specialties? How about other careers and specs? If some do and some don't, certain careers become 'better'.
 

I would say yes it does come with a Force Rating. As do specs just like the Force unispecs we have now. But only if you don't already have a Force Rating initially, as it is now. So if you take a Jedi spec after the fact, it will be much like the Force unispecs taken now, but with the caveat you are taking a spec outside of your career unlike the unispecs.

 

The term Jedi has a certain weight to it. If a Jedi career is implemented, I suspect many people will choose that because they will see the word Jedi and ignore the other careers.
 

It does carry a certain weight which is why it will, in all likelihood, be there. You will not make other careers more attractive by not having it there. You will more likely drive people away without it. Just because you and I and others can do Jedi without it, does not mean they should not have it. People want Jedi and will be looking for the career path. I can guarabtee that if it is not there it will be more detrimental than good.

 

There are other people that use lightsabers. Sith, jensasrai, etc. Do they get careers? Nightsisters? Baren Do? Findsman? In my opinion better to have 'generic' careers and an overarching method to call yourself a Jedi (or any force tradition) than risk having to make careers of limited appeal.
 

I am beginning to think that Non-Jedi traditions may be implemented more with unispecs to augment taken careers, whether they be a Jedi career or other careers.

 

Also, as of F&D we will have an official release of the lightsaber skill, something which up to now has been left to GM devices. This will open the skill up to many characters with purchase through XP or with a racial trait like with humans. So you will still be able to do a jack of all trades Jedi build if you want.

 

Also, how many specs do you want to jump into to create your multi-tasking Jedi? That will get exorbitantly expensive. Specs, talents, skills, powers, they all add up. There needs to be at least one dedicated career/specs for those that don't want to be spec jumping.

 

Having a Jedi career would be more beneficial than detrimental.


People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell


#30 That Blasted Samophlange

That Blasted Samophlange

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,479 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:19 PM

Mouthy, I still disagree. I can't do a multiquote on my mobile however.

Sure one career will not take away from anything, any more than it will add anything. I think you are also hung up on the idea that this game will be all force users all the time, as well as the idea of creating all specialties to go with the new careers. The marauder, pilot. Mechanic are all specialties that could be applied to the Jedi we see on screen.

Of one career gives a force rating but the other 5 do not, then that career becomes the better choice. Uni-specs become a way to include force users that puts all careers across all lines on equal footing. I expext to see the exile and emergent alongside several new ones, such as, maybe, a purge survivor Jedi.

While a stand alone game, the devs also have to take into account those of us who are buying into all three game lines. Changing the power levels, even if adding a force rating to careers, will penalize people who already have characters that are force sensitive.

If you followed what I proposed for the commitment mechanic, it removes having to have a Jedi career. By an overarching mechanic that can be applied to any character, either a f&d or aor or eote character.

Anyone can be a force user. They can be as powerful as a jedi . The only thing unique to the Jedi is their outlook, and that does not require a career. Some will say we only see Jedi and Sith on screen, the rest is EU nonsense, then by that logic, all EU content should be removed. Non Jedi force traditions are just as important to the rpg as Jedi are. Possibly more so as the Jedi are wiped out.

If we look at the time period there are countless examples of characters that become Jedi after a lifetime of doing something else. Having a Jedi career, as opposed to a unispec and commitment mechanic does not represent a Jedi of the Era, like Luke.
You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of EU.

#31 Kshatriya

Kshatriya

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,686 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:34 PM

 

I would change the mechanic so that obviously 'good codes' are harder to follow than 'evil codes' but they provide a mechanical benefit, whereas evil codes probably just screw you.

 

Following a code will probably net you some kind of benefit of some kind, just like Obligation. So maybe you get +10 XP or something.

 

So if you follow the Sith Code, it works like Obligation. If your number comes up, you lose strain threshold, no choice in the matter.

 

If you follow the Jedi Code, if your number comes up..as long as you adhere to the code, no strain damage. Deviate, and you do. At this point the GM is supposed to strongly tempt you to deviate, because well, strain damage isn't such a big deal and people with Obligations take the hit anyway.

 

That way we illustrate that the Dark Side is the quick and easy path, but it will randomly screw you,because you're bad and being bad is easy, while the Jedi path is hard but rewarding.

 

I generally like the idea of "Code" but I disagree that following a Sith Code shouldn't provide benefits. I mean, so many people went to the Dark Side for the delicious cookies only they make. It's the quick path to power, and advancing down it offers more and more power - Sith Sorcery, Sith Alchemy, etc. Things that have no direct parallel in the Jedi tradition. So while it should corrupt you, there has to be a payoff for the corruption, otherwise nobody would pick it. "A quick route to power" needs mechanics to go with it for this definition!

 

By contrast, the Light Side is about denial of instinct, and replacement of reactivity with self-control. If anything, following the Light should provide no real benefit (or a minor one), but deviating should cause a big issue, i.e. Strain. 



#32 mouthymerc

mouthymerc

    Not the member you are looking for!

  • Members
  • 1,818 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:41 PM

Early on I pointed out that F&D was going to be aimed at more than Force-users (back during the EotE beta days if I am not mistaken). But I also think it is going to be aimed at characters beyond the Luke path, which some people seem to be focused on because they've centered their games around the OT. F&D will be a book about creating Force-users that come to it later in life and those that started with it. It would be foolish not to create a system which can accommodate both, and simple enough too.

 

We've been over these points before in other threads. We'll just wait and see at this point. Only a few months to go now.


People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell


#33 TarlSS

TarlSS

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:36 PM

 

 

I would change the mechanic so that obviously 'good codes' are harder to follow than 'evil codes' but they provide a mechanical benefit, whereas evil codes probably just screw you.

 

Following a code will probably net you some kind of benefit of some kind, just like Obligation. So maybe you get +10 XP or something.

 

So if you follow the Sith Code, it works like Obligation. If your number comes up, you lose strain threshold, no choice in the matter.

 

If you follow the Jedi Code, if your number comes up..as long as you adhere to the code, no strain damage. Deviate, and you do. At this point the GM is supposed to strongly tempt you to deviate, because well, strain damage isn't such a big deal and people with Obligations take the hit anyway.

 

That way we illustrate that the Dark Side is the quick and easy path, but it will randomly screw you,because you're bad and being bad is easy, while the Jedi path is hard but rewarding.

 

I generally like the idea of "Code" but I disagree that following a Sith Code shouldn't provide benefits. I mean, so many people went to the Dark Side for the delicious cookies only they make. It's the quick path to power, and advancing down it offers more and more power - Sith Sorcery, Sith Alchemy, etc. Things that have no direct parallel in the Jedi tradition. So while it should corrupt you, there has to be a payoff for the corruption, otherwise nobody would pick it. "A quick route to power" needs mechanics to go with it for this definition!

 

By contrast, the Light Side is about denial of instinct, and replacement of reactivity with self-control. If anything, following the Light should provide no real benefit (or a minor one), but deviating should cause a big issue, i.e. Strain. 

 

 

Well, that's the idea actually.

 

Following a 'Code' of any kind gives you a 'cookie'. It's a big one, like for example, you get a bonus Destiny point, or +20 XP, or a bonus Force Die. You just get it, like you get bonus XP with Obligations. An easy one would be getting a free Force Specialization with any code of the appropriate choice.

 

So for example if you want to play a Hired Gun that follows the Jedi Code, you can do that- you build a Hired Gun, use Jedi Code instead of Obligation, and you can pick up the Force Exile Specialization. This would be great for if you wanted to say, play an Antarian Ranger.

 

I would actually make F&D 'compatible' with non Force Users by saying..if you want to pick up a Code, you can choose a free non-Force specialization if that's what you want. In general, it's just +20xp free.

 

In exchange for this bennie, the penalties are harsher.

 

The Dark Side code, the easy one to follow, always gets penalties. They can't avoid it. Much like Obligations, they'll take strain when their "Code roll" comes up. 

 

The Light Side code, the hard one to follow, won't take penalties unless they break the code.

When their number comes up, the GM should be trying to MAKE them break the code at this point. It means the 'big bad' will surrender, even though you know he'll break out and wreak even more havoc. Maybe in order to illustrate this point, the GM gets an extra black Destiny when you do break the code.

 

Breaking the code doesn't mean you turn to the Dark Side..it means as Anakin in TCW, you have a 'moment'. You have to willingly turn to the Darkside. This would be represented by the fact that if you continually break the Jedi Code while 'being Light aligned' the GM will just keep getting black Destiny tokens. If you commit any obviously evil act, you'll have turned to the Darkside, and maybe just lose all benefits of your code altogether, until you pick up a Dark Side code.

 

This very practically represents the quick and easy path to power of the Dark Side, while the Light Side is a struggle with one's moral self.

 

So you take the Dark Side for the bennies, and you understand that some days the Dark Side will 'take it's price', whereas with the Light Side, you get the bennies, but as long as you follow the code, the universe will 'be on your side'.

 

Finally, I would say unlike Duty or Obligation, you can't leave a Code. Once you start down the path of having a Code, you can't have anything else, you've thrown your lot in with the universe, you're either Dark or Light, This further represents the commitment path of Obligation -> Duty -> Code. It's sort of a hero's journey from outlaw to savior.


Edited by TarlSS, 07 April 2014 - 04:43 PM.


#34 Kshatriya

Kshatriya

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,686 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:00 PM

Finally, I would say unlike Duty or Obligation, you can't leave a Code. Once you start down the path of having a Code, you can't have anything else, you've thrown your lot in with the universe, you're either Dark or Light,

I agree with most of what you said, except for this. There are plenty of examples in the EU of characters falling to darkness and being redeemed (or not), and of course in the movies too.

 

Also I would definitely steer away from "Light = Jedi Code" and "Dark = Sith code." All Sith are Dark Side users, not all Dark Side users are Sith; (most, lol) Jedi are Light Side users, not all Light Side users are Jedi. Important to provide other options for Force users who follow other traditions or no strict tradition at all.


  • kaosoe likes this

#35 TarlSS

TarlSS

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:35 PM

 

Finally, I would say unlike Duty or Obligation, you can't leave a Code. Once you start down the path of having a Code, you can't have anything else, you've thrown your lot in with the universe, you're either Dark or Light,

I agree with most of what you said, except for this. There are plenty of examples in the EU of characters falling to darkness and being redeemed (or not), and of course in the movies too.

 

Also I would definitely steer away from "Light = Jedi Code" and "Dark = Sith code." All Sith are Dark Side users, not all Dark Side users are Sith; (most, lol) Jedi are Light Side users, not all Light Side users are Jedi. Important to provide other options for Force users who follow other traditions or no strict tradition at all.

 

 

Oh, no. I meant that you should not be able to pay off a Code like Obligation, the only way to change it is either from Dark to Light or vice versa.

 

As for Dark and Light codes, I would hope that much like Obligation, there are a variety of codes or whatever that players can choose from. I say Jedi and Sith because frankly, I know of no other existing codes.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS