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Dark Charm in scenario 1 of Masquerade Ball quest


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#1 cogollo

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:16 AM

I've been searching for an answer about the following question and could find only a discussion in BGG without a final answer (http://boardgamegeek...o-steal-a-guest).

 

So, the question is:

Can the Overlord force a Dark Charmed hero escorting a guest to move out of the map through the exit and so abduct the guest? (thus gaining in the process an overlord card).

 

The effect seems extremely overpowered to me, but thematically there are reasons for allowing it or not allowing it, so I'd like to know if there is an official answer to this.

 


Hur-Nir ran to the aid of the beaten man, recovering in the process a handful of pennies the thugs had let fall in the man's boots during their hasty retreat. - from Nulner Blues campaign

 


#2 C2K

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:38 AM

Heroes are not allowed to move out the exit. 



#3 Robin

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:49 AM

And there would be a great problem about wherefrom they come back on the map.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#4 cogollo

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:51 AM

Heroes are not allowed to move out the exit. 

 

That's even though the Dark Charm card reads "move the charmed Hero as if it were a monster"?


Hur-Nir ran to the aid of the beaten man, recovering in the process a handful of pennies the thugs had let fall in the man's boots during their hasty retreat. - from Nulner Blues campaign

 


#5 C2K

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:41 AM

It doesn't mean the the hero IS a monster now.  That clause allows you to use the hero during the overlord phase. 



#6 BentoSan

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:26 AM

Haha awesome question! I think it should be allowed, but I can see reasons why it would not. I think you should officially ask this question.
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#7 rfisha

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:42 AM

It is interesting if the hero CAN move out of the exit, as is the case in the scenario you are playing.  I am the opposite of Bento, I don't think it should, but I can't see why it couldn't.  Worth asking!  


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#8 BentoSan

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:07 AM

I believe I should clarify...

I want the answer to be yes PURELY to see the faces of the heroes >=)

I love being an evil overlord

#9 griton

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:52 AM

According to the RAW, I'd probably say it would work. But that does seem like something that wouldn't be allowed because also according to RAW, it completely removes the hero from the map and doesn't provide a way for the hero to come back.



#10 BentoSan

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:54 PM

I doubt its allowed, while the card says you can move the hero as if he was treated as a monster, that does not at all mean that he IS a monster. The rules say that the monsters can move off the map with a guest, but just because you are controlling the hero as if he was a monster does not mean that a hero can still move off a map. As has been said in other another ruling the heroes are still ""heroic at heart".


Edited by BentoSan, 05 April 2014 - 10:09 PM.


#11 Steve-O

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 07:54 PM

I think the best way to approach this is to say that a hero being "treated as a monster" is similar to tokens that are "treated as heroes."

ie:
A hero "treated as a monster" would count as a monster for all hero abilities, attacks and OL cards for the duration of the Dark Charm effect. He would not count as a monster for anything else, notably special quest rules. Therefore a DC'd hero cannot abduct guests on behalf of the OL.

 

At least, that's the best way to tackle it, IMHO.  Time will tell if FFG agrees.


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#12 C2K

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:23 AM

That seems about right.  Kind of like familiars how familiars are handled;  they are treated as hero figures, but they cannot perform all the actions heroes perform, and get removed from play if defeated. 



#13 Lightknight

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:35 AM

Well, can Dark Charm be used to move heroes off the map in general? Say there's a battle at the end of the map where heroes may exit and you just want to get rid of one. What's the general rulling of that as long as they are within the movement point range required to do so? The answer to this more basic question would inform the more advanced one.

 

My group was playing "pilgrimage" for the interlude and I wanted to attack a golem with dark charmed hero. The group unanimously stated that the "heroes can't damage the golem" applied to the scenario as stated in the rules and I caved to the pressure and let them have the easiest win there is. Having since researched this I've found that the hero is treated as a monster for the single attack or single movement. So much so that even Leoric's -1 damage aura would take away a damage point from his own attack and the charmed hero can't move through other heroes but can move through monsters.

 

http://boardgamegeek...146235#11146235

 

So I'd say the terminology of it allows it but it sounds like more of an exploit in the masquerade quest. I've seen this particular question posed on multiple sites so an official answer would be dandy. From the term, if it's something a monster can do then you can make the hero do it if it only requires a regular attack or movement points. You can even augment the attack with critical blow and such but can't frenzy or dash(since immediately after the first action charm wears off so a second action is never possible).


Edited by Lightknight, 10 April 2014 - 10:46 AM.


#14 Steve-O

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:17 PM

Well, can Dark Charm be used to move heroes off the map in general? Say there's a battle at the end of the map where heroes may exit and you just want to get rid of one. What's the general rulling of that as long as they are within the movement point range required to do so? The answer to this more basic question would inform the more advanced one.


I'd be inclined to say yes, in that case the OL could DC move the hero off the map. However, that doesn't really change anything because this new hypothetical quest rule is one that applies to heroes, while the Masquerade Ball quest rule applies to monsters. It doesn't change anything.


My group was playing "pilgrimage" for the interlude and I wanted to attack a golem with dark charmed hero. The group unanimously stated that the "heroes can't damage the golem" applied to the scenario as stated in the rules and I caved to the pressure and let them have the easiest win there is.


I'd say you could DC attack the Golem in this case, since per my proposal above, the hero would be counted as a monster for attacks. Regarding tokens "treated as heroes" the purpose of having them be treated as heroes for attacks is because monsters are only legally allowed to target "heroes" with their attacks. A similar logic applies here.


Having since researched this I've found that the hero is treated as a monster for the single attack or single movement. So much so that even Leoric's -1 damage aura would take away a damage point from his own attack and the charmed hero can't move through other heroes but can move through monsters.


Leoric's ability is a hero ability, hence the DC'd hero counts as a monster and gets dinged (even if it's Leoric himself who has been DC'd.) The movement thing is a good point, though. I don't know that it necessarily implies anything relevant to the Masquerade Ball example, but it's worth taking note of.

Again, this is just how I'd treat it personally. We have yet to hear FFG's official answer, but it's probably something that should be officially addressed once ad for all - what does "treated as a monster" mean, and how is it different from "treated as a hero," if at all?




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