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Pen vs. TB


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#1 Timberboar

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:07 AM

Just a quick question to make sure I understand this mechanic.

 

RAW, a weapon's Pen value only subtracts from the target's armor, and not from the "soak" they get as a result of their toughness bonus, correct?

 

I tried to use the search function, but it removed every single one of my search terms for being under 4 characters. So... sorry if this is answered every other week.



#2 Magus Black

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:05 PM

In a word: yes.

PEN reduces all armour types (be it natural or man-made or warp-made) but does not effect the Toughness Soak, the closest thing to reducing the Toughness Soak would be Felling, but it only works against Unnatural Toughness not mundane Toughness.

 

And yes the warp-machinations of this forum are fickle in deed, so its no problem to ask if it refuses you.


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#3 AlphariusOmegon7

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:23 AM

Yes, though I was confused about this when I started WH40k RPGs as well.  Everyone's new at some point.  

 

Though I also think it's dumb and having Tb be a straight damage reduction leads to tonnes of problems for everything apart from Daemons.  


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#4 Lynata

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 05:45 PM

Though I also think it's dumb and having Tb be a straight damage reduction leads to tonnes of problems for everything apart from Daemons.  

 

To advertise another option in terms of houserules ...

 

In GW's own d100 game, "Inquisitor", TB was actually a sort of buffer between critical levels. Any damage that got through your armour automatically caused an injury, your Toughness merely dictated how badly you'd be injured.

 

Transplanted to this RPG, you could resolve damage as follows:

 

Step 1: Roll damage

Step 2: Deduct AP

Step 3: Divide remaining damage by TB

Step 4: Apply the result (rounded up) directly to the Crit Table, stacking with existing Injury levels

 

The result would be that characters are notably easier to injure and suffer lasting "souvenirs" from their battles (possibly requiring prosthetics/bionics), but are not at as much of a risk of "rushing through" the entire Crit table in a single dice roll.

 

I would also recommend to remove or at least significantly reduce Wounds, because using TB as a Crit Buffer essentially gives player characters 20-30 Wounds With Injury Effects, thus being a good substitute anyways.

 

So, what happens in RAW if you take damage is basically "nothing .. nothing .. nothing .. one injury .. you're dead", whereas with this change you'd have a far more gradual experience, feeling more vulnerable whilst at the same time actually having a higher survivability.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#5 cpteveros

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:24 PM

I really like that. The crit table pretty much means death, as it is right now. I've flirted with the idea of removing wounds all together, to make combat much more lethal and less, "I have 20 points till getting shot actually matters"



#6 FieserMoep

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:19 AM

Well, the "nothing, nothing, eh... urgh..." is true though it allows combat heavy campaign to somewhat keep its "cast" alive and attribute something "heroic" to the PCs. If that is the theme your campaign is about the standard rules are fine, if you want a more deadly system i'd go for the only crit table stuff. And either use the "True Grit" Talent mechanics where you subtract critical damage by the amount of Toughness, or as stated divide by TB and after that maybe even apply true grit, if bought for xp, anyways.

 

This way you get your battle-scars, loose limbs and several more PCs deaths. If you want that, go for it, but this may lead to some situations where your PCs get combat-lazy for they only engage if everything is in their favor. Ofc you can make another officer order them to charge but then it can just take two or three heavy weapon blasts/burst for an entire wipe.

 

It all boils down to what story you want to tell. Is it the tale of a band of brothers that survive because of plot/story telling-armor or is it a unit that constantly feels the losses of war and regularly requires reinforcements because of the grim nature of war.

 

But besides of that, I made the experience that after you crossed a certain line and start to fight real dangerous foes most 40k PnP have a tendency to become an insta-gib arena for it is much easier to carry destructive potential than armour/thoughness that adequately protect from these weapons. And that applies to both, PCs and their enemies. So for us everything balanced out. In the beginning it was in favour of the PCs so they can get adapted to the system and develop their characters, after a while though, when they face well equipped and trained enemies the system becomes dangerous of its own.

 

I just have to think of a horrible murderous urban warfare scenario against imperial separatists that was inspired by Sniper Alley and the Bosnian War. Even the regular autogun was a real threat to the NPCs and with the more dangerous rules this scenario would have been over quite early for they would have been simply dead. If you are willed to field the same tools against the PCs, that they utilize and maybe even bring them to a disadvantage they fall just as fast as the regular enemies do.


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#7 segara82

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:26 AM

I consider the system deadly enough as it is, and any tinkering with the TB and wound mechanics in favor for realism works in my opinion only against the PCs. After all it's usually the 3-6 of them against literally hundreds of enemies. So more deadly only results in more re-rolls for character generating. Not what i and my players call fun. And i agree with FieserMoep about the gear balancing out. The first weapons themselves already do a good job about that, an Autogun against an unarmoured opponent does 1-10 damage, either gracing or outright killing him. And the first armours are easily cancelled out by man-stoppers.

Courage is the mastery of fear - not the absence of fear


#8 cpteveros

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:02 PM

My only issue is how you can take a bunch of hits (wounds) and not lose limbs, but when you do actually get there, you're already pretty much screwed.


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#9 Lynata

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:27 PM

So, just for gaks and giggles, I've run a quick comparison between RAW and an adapted "Inquisitor" system. I've rolled up 10 lasgun hits (1d10+3) for 10 random body locations, and the target was a bog-standard human with TB 3 and 15 Wounds, wearing AP4 armour.

 

This was the result:

 

RAW
Body: 7-7=0 (15/15)
Head: 13-7=6 (9/15)
Body: 13-7=6 (3/15)
Right Arm: 9-7=2 (1/15)
Body: 7-7=0 (1/15)
Head: 8-7=1 (-1, 1st Critical: Grazing blow to the head, -10 to all Tests for 1 Round)
Left Leg: 4-7=0 (nothing happens. lucky Guardsman!)
Head: 13-7=6 (-7, 2nd Critical: Face burned off, permanently blinded, Fel reduced)
Body: 10-3=7 (-7, 1st Critical: Organs cooked, stunned for 2d10 rounds, TN reduced)
Body: 9-7=2 (-9, 2nd Critical: Burned out, character is dead)
 
INQ (removed Wounds, TB is now a "crit buffer" that divides penetrating damage by its bonus)
Body: 7-4=3/3=1 (-1, 1st Critical: Out of air, can only take Half Action on next Turn)
Head: 13-4=9/3=3 (-3, 1st Critical: Ear burned off, deaf until First Aid)
Body: 13-4=9/3=3 (-4, 2nd Critical: Body scorched, receives Fatigue)
Right Arm: 9-4=5/3=2 (-2, 1st Critical: Arm stunned, useless for 1d5 Rounds)
Body: 7-4=3/3=1 (-5, 3rd Critical: Knocked prone, may be stunned or catch fire)
Head: 8-4=4/3=2 (-5, 2nd Critical: Face burned, blinded for 1d10 Rounds and Fel reduced)
Left Leg: 4-4=0 (nothing happens. lucky Guardsman!)
Head: 13-4=9/3=3 (-8, 3rd Critical: Head explodes, character is dead)
 
As you can see, RAW is indeed somewhat less lethal than this alternative - however, obviously chance plays a big role here, and both systems offer advantages and disadvantages (in terms of player survivability) in different areas. Inquisitor's usage of TB to divide penetrating damage, for example, means that heavier weapons will almost always cause serious injuries, but are less likely to instagib you:
 
For example, the average damage of a meltagun (21, +12 Pen) would be 18 in RAW (reduced by TB 3), but "only" 6 in Inquisitor (divided by TB 3) ... although the latter would be applied directly to the Crit Table, whereas the RAW shot might be cushioned by Wounds (if you still have a lot left).
I think both results seem in line with the Meltagun's reputation (in both cases, a clever GM would narrate non-killing meltagun hits as grazing shots), but here it is the RAW that is more lethal. A lot.
 
And ultimately, starting to receive injuries right away from the very first hit just feels more gradual and gritty.
 
That being said, an option to "mix" both systems and increase survivability would be to keep Wounds and re-label them as "Luck". Shots against PCs would first have to deplete their "Luck" - but damage reduces Luck directly, without first being negated by armour.
 
Just an idea, mind you.  :)

Edited by Lynata, 13 April 2014 - 09:30 PM.

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current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#10 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:15 AM

there is no nothing, nothing, urgh in OW, because the RF mechanic, which kicks in often, is going to lead to stuff.

 

When I was GMing Final Testament, one character got a broken leg without even landing the drop ship.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 14 April 2014 - 08:19 AM.


#11 Lynata

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:35 AM

I dunno, is less than 5% "often"? Though, given how often people are getting shot at, I guess it is. But then again, this amount of hits also means they ought to be losing Wounds quickly, anyways, so the issue remains.

 

I also think it's not very consistent if you essentially have two different versions of Crits. Call it a desire for realism or for greater simplicity. It's probably a bit of both.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#12 Adeptus-B

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:27 PM

That's a really interesting system, Lynata. The only real downsides are that it pretty much requires a calculator, and it doesn't 'scale up' enough to take huge stuff into account (that was a major flaw of the 'narrative' damage system proposed in the first version of the DH2 Beta). Carnifexes and Greater Daemons should be much harder to kill than a PC who somehow gets a comparable TB...



#13 Lynata

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:11 PM

The only real downsides are that it pretty much requires a calculator

 

Hmmh, you think so? The only real addition of math is dividing damage after armour by TB.

 

That said, I suppose this can become problematic with higher damage numbers...  :unsure:

 

Carnifexes and Greater Daemons should be much harder to kill than a PC who somehow gets a comparable TB...

 

That's true. I have been thinking of simply allowing such "boss creatures" to keep their Wounds. Easiest solution, methinks (in case of a Greater Daemon it'd be a whopping 80!). Could be fluffed as bleeding wounds that don't have any other effect, akin to the first few salvos into a bug creature in Starship Troopers. ;)

 

Another option would be to up their resilience by increasing Toughness or adding Natural Armour, although I was hoping to offer this system as an alternative that does not necessitate the rewriting of any stats, thus making implementation easier for anyone who's interested.

 

I've also been thinking about Unnatural Toughness as a trait adding the respective creature's TB as Wounds to each body location (thus essentially "adding a small cushion" before injury), though I suppose that would be too much bookkeeping?


Edited by Lynata, 14 April 2014 - 08:12 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#14 cpteveros

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:33 PM

I have a question regarding Pen and TB and Armor, nooby as it is: Say a weapon's penetration is higher than than the armor of  a target. 5 vs 4, for example. That last point does nothing, correct? That's what I understood it as in the rules, but that just seems pointless. Fighting anything with Flak armor means you are either under, or over and thus wasting the high pen (unless you are using a heavy flamer or bolter). Should it bite into TB? Be added as extra damage?

 

At the end of the day, what's the advantage of having an eviscerator with a pen of 9 when the toughest armor ratings you will fight will be that of carapace (6), Ork Mega Armor (14,9,5), Chaos Power armor (10), and Incubus armor (8)?



#15 Tenebrae

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:20 AM

I have a question regarding Pen and TB and Armor, nooby as it is: Say a weapon's penetration is higher than than the armor of  a target. 5 vs 4, for example. That last point does nothing, correct?

Absolutely correct.

At the end of the day, what's the advantage of having an eviscerator with a pen of 9 when the toughest armor ratings you will fight will be that of carapace (6), Ork Mega Armor (14,9,5), Chaos Power armor (10), and Incubus armor (8)?

As I recall, it get's even better, as the eviscerator is Razor Sharp and so may well have effective pen of 18 in many cases. This is only really useful if you decided to take on a tank in close combat.

Though if you take a look at that Ork Mega Armour, pen 9 looks quite useful.

#16 venkelos

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:49 AM

Not an amazing idea, I confess, but that higher Pen could help against vehicles. Meltas are the same idea here, where their Pen is higher than most personal armor, and they won't BLAM through the natural Toughness, either, but they do amazing things against vehicles; that's what most people would say melta weapons are for, and the eviscerator might fall into that, too. Failing having a power fist, or happening to have an especially pious Priest, that uber chainsword could help buzz through a Chimera, Rhino, or Basilisk you just happen to be near, if you lucked out.


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#17 cpteveros

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:47 AM

Otherwise, though, seems almost pointless.



#18 Lynata

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:52 AM

In the TT and the Inquisitor game, Meltas and Eviscerators are universally useful against both infantry and vehicles because their Pen ensures they eat through almost any armour, whereas their standard damage is then sufficient to then kill or heavily damage it. Pretty much the only thing that keeps them from being the most popular weapons is their price and lack of AoE/RoF, thus mostly limiting them to dedicated tank killers (who proceed to killing infantry once all vehicles have been dealt with) or ICs who may face heavily armoured foot opponents (such as the enemy HQ).

 

In Only War and the other FFG 40k RPGs this gets cushioned somewhat simply because TB, as pointed out above, has a different effect here. But isn't their damage still high enough to retain their usefulness, even with this inherent drawback?


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#19 cpteveros

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:06 PM

Well in the case of the Eviscerator, when are you ever going to be charging a tank with a melee weapon? That doesn't sound like the smartest idea, considering many have pintle weapons and side sponsons, not to mention a turret and hull weapon. 2d10 sounds like a lot, and with the high pen, it will do all the damage you roll. 

 

Unless, of course, you can't seem to do any damage because somehow their skin is more durable than the armor they wear, and you simply can't penetrate that.



#20 Lynata

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

Well in the case of the Eviscerator, when are you ever going to be charging a tank with a melee weapon? 

 

When you're part of a suicide squad whose mission is to die a glorious death!

 

Other than that it's chiefly a badge of office, similar to a Commissar's bolt pistol, carried primarily due to association rather than actual battlefield efficiency. Still, it may find its use when push comes to shove.

 

Meltas are, of course, somewhat more useful, especially in an urban environment. They still have a rather limited range, but you can easily take out a tank by hiding inside some ruins and just waiting for your chance to caress that armoured hull with a disintegrating beam from the mouth of your thermal gun.


Edited by Lynata, 21 April 2014 - 01:49 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)




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