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Can a Devastator Marine Technically Carry 2 Heavy Weapons


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#21 musungu

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:59 AM

You can find all kinds of followers in the books, mostly in First Founding, where there are rules to create them. So at a high enough rank technically anyone can get a servitor to lug the baggage around, even on the battlefield, although I doubt a Fenrisian Wolf would allow a heavy bolter to be strapped on its back.

I support leaving additional weaponry in the Rhino / Thunderhawk / drop pod, because, duh, common sense. A fun way to discourage PCs from making Christmas trees out of themselves is to blow up extra weapons and  ammunition when the body part covered by said unnecessary weapon is hit. I think there's a rule for that somewhere in the explosive crit tables.



#22 Kshatriya

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:43 AM

Even for Uninitated PCs it's easily filled with Weapon Upgrades, Special Ammunition and Grenades. What I don't see is a Marine with a Flamer in hand and his Bolter slung around the torso. Also, handing out 100 Req to newly seconded should not be the norm.

 

Eh, not really. They really dropped the ball with reasonable req for special grenades and missiles, imo.

 

Space Marines are fairly set in their ways. There are rituals and lores to be observed. That's also why sharing equipment on a mission is treacherous ground. I'm playing a PBP in which me and some others at Famed renown are playing with Uninitiated PCs. It would be easy to circumvent the requisition mechanics through equipment sharing. I would discourage that as GM, making Machine Spirits rebel and Watch Captains dishing out harsh punishment unless it's an absolute emergency situations (like averting TPK).

 

I agree but the game you're describing is imo a fringe case; not many groups are going to have active characters on opposite ends of the Renown spectrum. If everyone is the same Renown level, sharing is a lot less of a big deal and practically there's little difference between "I req X and hand it to my Brother" versus "I give my leftover req to my Brother so he can take X."



#23 ak-73

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 05:06 AM

I consider special missiles and grenades to be fairly priced. Not competetively priced for what else you can get but... I consider them rare. Because they don't appear in Space Marine army lists. So they must be very restricted access.

 

As for Pooling Req, the Corebook clearly allows it. However, the way it's phrased might give a GM enough grounds to limit it:

"Each Battle-Brother on the Mission then has a number of Requisition Points equal to that rating with which to arm himself. [...] A Squad may choose to pool their Requisition Points for a communal item or to Requisition a particularly rare item for one member."

 

That gives the impression that pooling Req at will and handing out items to whoever is not exactly in the spirit of Req use. Yes, if the team thinks that the Devastator needs that Sanctified Multi-Melta, they can pool Req (if they all meet Renown).  But I don't think simply adding up unused Req and then letting whoever wants to requisition from that pool is in the spirit of the rules.

 

And Followers are of course okay, since you pay for them. Again, there should be a limit of how many Followers should be attached to a kill-team. Having a Follower is rather exception than rule, no?

 

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#24 Harpazo

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:36 PM

Hold up, you're telling me it requires two hands to wield a bolt gun? Literally everything I see of them shows them with the easy potential to akimbo those things.



#25 Annaamarth

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:11 AM

I think you mean "hands" not hands.  It takes two "hands" to carry a boltgun (in the five-hands methodology, which sounds like a charm in Exalted), just like it takes three "hands" to carry a heavy bolter.

 

I tend to think in slightly less restrictive terms, but not by much.  My guideline (emphasis is that this is flexible): Carrying three weapons, one of which must be a sidearm and one of which might be Heavy, is usually fine.

 

Stalker bolter, plasmagun and chainsword?  I can picture exactly where all of those would go.  Plasma Cannon, Stormbolter and Bolt Pistol?  Pushing it, but maybe. Two Plasma Cannon?  Where does the second ammo pack go?! 

 

I think you can get creative and find other ways to bring in additional gear, but the methods which occur to me I would not use for relic weapons or anything that the Deathwatch wouldn't be willing to sacrifice.  Disposable, one-shot missile launchers, melta bombs and camoleoline tarps, climbing gear, spare ammo and etc could all be feasibly transported via an Astartes-flavoured little red wagon...

 

I call it the boom cart.  :D


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#26 Harpazo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:51 AM

Hahahaha, the boom cart xD I think I might tell someone they have to have servitors carry all their excess crap if they REALLY want to carry an unheard of amount of weaponry.



#27 Calgor Grim

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:35 AM

Hahahaha, the boom cart xD I think I might tell someone they have to have servitors carry all their excess crap if they REALLY want to carry an unheard of amount of weaponry.

Reminds me of the old TSOALR comic:

 

http://tsoalr.com/?p=1180


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#28 Harpazo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:58 AM

Hahaha, that's about it xD



#29 Amazing Larry

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:37 AM

Like Annaamarth said the limitation here and it comes down to GM discretion is where on his body the character is stowing this ****, way back when they were still culturally relevant the guys at Rooster Teeth physically demonstrated what the DOOM Marine would actually look like carrying his dozen or so guns. Weight aside it was impossibly awkward and silly looking so even with the sky high lift and carry limits it's not feasible to carry more than one heavy weapon unless say you're carrying nothing but two heavy weapons which still ends up being somewhat silly.

 

That being said going into video game **** once again I do think the Halo style two weapon +grenades limit is somewhat flawed in many respects, I do think the more Gears of War two basic+pistol thing makes more sense or alternatively one heavy pistol or one heavy+basic. Figure your average melee weapon aside from the astartes scout knife counts as a basic.

 

Hey if you want a gun caddy that's what servitors and chapter serfs are for, if you want some guy to just carry guns for you that should be doable.



#30 Calgor Grim

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:16 AM

Like Annaamarth said the limitation here and it comes down to GM discretion is where on his body the character is stowing this ****, way back when they were still culturally relevant the guys at Rooster Teeth physically demonstrated what the DOOM Marine would actually look like carrying his dozen or so guns. Weight aside it was impossibly awkward and silly looking so even with the sky high lift and carry limits it's not feasible to carry more than one heavy weapon unless say you're carrying nothing but two heavy weapons which still ends up being somewhat silly.

 

Vsauce3 also did something about how much you can feasibly carry in some games as well:

 


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#31 ak-73

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:23 AM

Which Codex:Space Marine infantry model has more than one basic or heavy weapon though? Just because you're Deathwatch it doesn't necessarily mean you can choose whatever you like, it's all subject to the Watch Captain's (and Forgemaster's) discretion still. And I would consider either who approve of such shenanigans fairly lax. Probably not impossible but fairly unusual.

 

Even using a Servitor as caddy is possible but a bit doubtful. It speaks of a Marine who can't make a strategic choice and adapt to circumstances as necessary. If you had a Signature Wargear item and you'd buy a Servo-Skull to serve it to you when needed, that would be a different thing!

 

Alex

 

PS In essence, the caddy only serves to circumvent the necessity to make the right guess at Requisition stage. So normally I would come down hard on it because it's an integral part of play.


Edited by ak-73, 14 April 2014 - 05:24 AM.

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#32 Annaamarth

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:24 PM

I wouldn't use the caddy to carry a plasma cannon, and it's generally not for weapons (except melta bombs, possibly grenades and maybe disposable one-shot launchers).  It's for tools- camoleoline tarps for building a hidden camp, or climbing gear for scaling the exterior of a hive spire, for example.  Similarly, I wouldn't take a servitor or a serf into the field- I'd be dragging the thing myself; having a servitor or serf stomping around in the brush would be tactically unsound.

 

I wouldn't let someone take additional primary weapons with it were I gming- as previously mentioned, those are ancient arms and sacred relics.  I would, however, allow someone to fill his little red wagon with melta bombs, promethium and trip wires, and use it to booby trap the area approaching a hide, where he might camp out with, say, a stalker and a heavy bolter.  So the kill team goes in and does whatever, then they coming running back to the extraction zone with their hidden Brother up on a hill picking off leaders.  As the kill-team gets closer to the booby-trapped area, he voxes guidance through the the dangerous area.  Their pursuers get no such guidance, and start tripping over 40k equivalent claymores.

 

In essence, it's sacrificing the requisition you might use for heavier arms and armour for a versatile selection of tools- that you may have to abandon, because a little red wagon can't go everywhere, and it's better suited to support than infiltration. I think that's wholly in the spirit of requisition: determining your role in the coming mission.

 

Re: Codex:Space Marines infantry model with more than one basic or heavy weapon: terminators with missile packs and Storm Bolters.   ;)

 

As a side note, weren't you arguing in another thread about how GW Crunch Marines fall short of GW Fluff Marines?  I could easily see a bolter maglocked to the side of a heavy bolter ammo pack.

 

Unrelatedly, you are now picturing a Radio Flyer stacked chest high with meltabombs and missiles bouncing down a hill at a Hive Tyrant.


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#33 Harpazo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:44 PM

There's realism for the sake of fun, then there's realism to the point of nauseating the players who either don't want to decide between a couple of chain swords and a bolter, or who would like the strategic option of having a heavy flamer plus a couple of bolters. Read the opening to the Deathwatch Armoury section on 138 p. You'll see that, in fact, the Deathwatch is quite a lot different than any other chapter. They have a much broader and deeper access to weaponry to combat a myriad of foes with more specifically applied forces of fire power. They should always have the right tool for the job, and what's more, they should practically have a limitless supply. Their supply of ammunition and weapons has limits, but functionally, for a Kill-Team, the five or six marines should never reach those limits.

What's more is they aren't fighting drawn out conflicts with redundant enemies and reused scenarios. You wont find a Deathwatch Space Marine on a battle line for months on end hucking the bolts from the same rifle at an endless onslaught of Orks. It would be very odd if a grunt from a random battle line copped up to his superior to say, "Hey, uh, mind if I take a flamer to these guys? Ya know, just for a change of pace?"

But for the Deathwatch, they specifically are tasked with going up against the absolute toughest Xenos encounters to protect mankind. That's literally what they do. They insert into highly specialized missions and are disconnected from their Watch Stations or a Watch Fortress. They could drop pod onto a dead planet for a week-long escort mission ending in an assault on an enemy fortification and the only weapons and ammunition they'll have reliably is what they take with them.

These small bands of marines are supposed to have improved combat efficiencies so it makes sense that a Tactical Marine would want a stalker bolter to help lead and guide his team during marches on open ground but switch to a storm bolter on his hip and toss the sniper rifle on his back when he has to lead his Kill-Team into a Tyranid filled cavern system.

It's not a matter of lack of supply, or lack of willingness to relinquish it, the Deathwatch custom is to make sure it's Kill-Teams are appropriately equipped. There are dozens of scenarios Kill-Teams will encounter after they leave the Watch Station/Fortress and it is the Deathwatch's Forgemaster's duty to make sure they have the tools they need to overcome those challenges.

These aren't grunts, that's why they're in the Deathwatch in the first place. They are the elite Space Marines from their chapters (haven't you read that quote that I can't repeat to you for sake of copyright?).

So not only does it make quite a lot of sense that the Deathwatch marines have a greater liberty in gear choices, but also as a game designed to be fun it makes sense to allow players to vary their load out choices so they can actually enjoy the game. If the reason you're not allowing your players to pick up a bolter and a lasgun isn't because it's game breaking, or because it's against the mechanics, but because the lore irks you the wrong way, then there's justification for that. But it only goes so far. At the end of the day, if a player has more fun roasting Xenos with a larger variety of weapons than the lore (that doesn't totally apply to the Deathwatch) allows, then consider stretching the lore so the person doesn't feel like they actually joined the armed forces.

It's meant to be fun. It's supposed to be fun. The rules are there to enhance and guide the fun, not make playing the game a chore.


Edited by Harpazo, 14 April 2014 - 02:46 PM.

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#34 Annaamarth

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:31 PM

Well phrased.  I still think that requisition should be a matter of choice, and I would still be surprised if a GM let one of my co-players (or me) get away with hauling a heavy flamer, a stalker and a missile launcher into the field.

 

I'm also not entirely sure that DW should be a game of lascannon-heavy bolter-horde.  (In case you weren't sure, lascannon beats heavy bolter, heavy bolter beats horde and horde beats lascannon.  It may seem obvious, but I just wanted to make sure.  also, I have no idea what the hand motions are for that.)


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#35 Kshatriya

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:42 PM

I'm not saying a given character might not be able to req both a heavy bolter and a lascannon, just not carry both at the same time. When they deploy from a Thunderhawk or have an operational base I think it's legit to leave a load-out swap there.



#36 Annaamarth

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:02 PM

That's a good idea too, sure.  Crude, now I need to go through the books and see if you can requisition gun servitors.

 

Because having a prepared firebase at your EZ might be incredibly useful.  Assuming you managed to make a stop at the EZ before you riled everything up, anyway.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

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#37 Calgor Grim

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:24 PM

First Founding contains rules for Followers such as Cenobyte Servitors, Chapter Serfs etc.


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#38 Kshatriya

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:54 PM

That's a good idea too, sure.  Crude, now I need to go through the books and see if you can requisition gun servitors.

 

Because having a prepared firebase at your EZ might be incredibly useful.  Assuming you managed to make a stop at the EZ before you riled everything up, anyway.

Doesn't really work with drop pods, though, which is the most common way that Deathwatch deploy. My players have frequently done it with Thunderhawks.



#39 Lynata

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:22 PM

Doesn't really work with drop pods, though, which is the most common way that Deathwatch deploy. My players have frequently done it with Thunderhawks.

 

This may be stretching it a bit, but couldn't you just use a drop pod for equipment only? Like in the Space Marine videogame (though with a plausible explanation rather than making it an obvious game mechanical).

 

One pod for the Marines, another for their surplus wargear. Like ... with paratroopers who have their heavy equipment dropped in extra crates!


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#40 Annaamarth

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:22 AM

Good thinking, Lynata.  Now I just need to find the req cost of a second drop pod...


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RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

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