Jump to content



Photo

Can a Devastator Marine Technically Carry 2 Heavy Weapons


  • Please log in to reply
53 replies to this topic

#1 PhilOfCalth

PhilOfCalth

    Member

  • Members
  • 109 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:58 AM

This thread is not asking if a devastator should be allowed to carry 2 heavy weapons. I'm purely asking from a mechanical and weight perspective would a devastator be able to carry 2 heavy weapons, just assuming he had some way of storing both on his person.

 

An average DW Space Marine starts with a SB of 10 in his power armour. Would that give him enough strength to lug around 2 Heavy bolters and his backpack ammo supply and whatever spare clips and other equipment is standard issue? What if the player put him up to a combined SB of 12? Has anyone else had a look at it and worked it all out?



#2 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,057 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:27 AM

Sure, but he'd better have good reason to do so lest the machine spirits might become offended. This is sacred gear. You don't treat it like any other old tool.

 

Alex


Edited by ak-73, 03 April 2014 - 05:27 AM.

  • Kshatriya likes this

My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#3 Calgor Grim

Calgor Grim

    Member

  • Members
  • 446 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:28 AM

Considering that a marine can in theory throw someone in Terminator Armour due to the mad way carry weight and lifting strength is done, yes. See http://1d4chan.org/i...gie_McIsaac.png for a potentially intriguing comedic example. At SB12 plus your TB of 8, going on the rules from P208 you can carry about 2.2 metric tons. A heavy bolter is only 68kg. And this is only going on the lifting chart as written, it's daft and whoever wrote it needs shooting. Unnatural Marine Strength and Toughness plus power armour make for stupidly high carry capacity. Theoretically then, assuming you had a way to secure this to your person then yes.

 

Our group found an easier way to consider what gear and weapons someone can carry is to use the rule of five hands.

 

A character can feasibly and securely carry five hands worth of weapons. (Gear is not generally considered since much of it is small)

Pistols and melee weapons usually require one hand. (EG Bolt Pistols or Chainswords)

Most other guns and large melee weapons require two hands. (EG Flamers, Boltguns, Claymore)

Heavy guns need three hands. (EG Heavy Bolter/Las Cannon etc)

 

This means a player can feasibly carry either five small melee weapons or pistols, two bolterlike weapons and a sidearm melee/pistol or one heavy weapon and a bolter/two pistol combination.


Edited by Calgor Grim, 03 April 2014 - 05:32 AM.

  • Lynata and Avdnm like this

Loyal Missionary Father Grim of the Kingston 293rd Storm Troopers


#4 PhilOfCalth

PhilOfCalth

    Member

  • Members
  • 109 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:45 AM

I didn't realise that it was SB + TB there. Those are some insanly high numbers!



#5 Calgor Grim

Calgor Grim

    Member

  • Members
  • 446 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:04 AM

Hence why the chart is daft. An Astartes in power armour and unnatural characteristics is easily hitting nearly 20 and max carry weight.
  • Kshatriya likes this

Loyal Missionary Father Grim of the Kingston 293rd Storm Troopers


#6 Kshatriya

Kshatriya

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,686 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:15 AM

This really is not a question of weight limits, with the chart being designed for DH and not ever considering the practical applications of PCs with Unnaturals. 

 

So, there's no mechanical reason they can't carry it. But there is a practical/bulk reason, in that Astartes still have human proportions, 2 arms, one back, and one backpack unit provides ammo for one weapon type, not multiple.

 

Something my group has done is one person might take 2 heavy weapons, and leave one with their chattel or whatnot in case of emergency. But practically, a Dev is not going to "need" 2 heavy weapons for the same mission. Depending on mission parameters, the heavy bolter (with several special ammo types) or lascannon (punching through big solos) is the clear best option for the Dev, with a bolter as backup.



#7 Lynata

Lynata

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,847 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:33 AM

See http://1d4chan.org/i...gie_McIsaac.png for a potentially intriguing comedic example. 

 

This reminds me of how, coupled with how falling damage used to work, lifting and throwing a Hive Tyrant was for some time considered the most efficient way of killing them.  :D


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#8 Calgor Grim

Calgor Grim

    Member

  • Members
  • 446 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:32 AM

This really is not a question of weight limits, with the chart being designed for DH and not ever considering the practical applications of PCs with Unnaturals. 
 
So, there's no mechanical reason they can't carry it. But there is a practical/bulk reason, in that Astartes still have human proportions, 2 arms, one back, and one backpack unit provides ammo for one weapon type, not multiple.
 
Something my group has done is one person might take 2 heavy weapons, and leave one with their chattel or whatnot in case of emergency. But practically, a Dev is not going to "need" 2 heavy weapons for the same mission. Depending on mission parameters, the heavy bolter (with several special ammo types) or lascannon (punching through big solos) is the clear best option for the Dev, with a bolter as backup.


Pretty much no weight or carry restrictions just the whole number of arms. A tech marine could maybe augment with mechanics but no dev as you mentioned should ever need more than one heavy weapon else they are doing it wrong!
  • Lynata likes this

Loyal Missionary Father Grim of the Kingston 293rd Storm Troopers


#9 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,057 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:21 AM

I am even more strict. I am guided by the images of Marines in the lore and by army lists/miniatures. Do they carry an extra Heavy Bolter? Surely not. While they could do so, it is against all regulations. The Imperium is not big on innovation.

 

So what marines get is a main weapon and two sidearms (bolt pistol/chainsword) max (heavy weapons leave room for one sidearm). Anything else needs special permission. The upside of it is that it forces strategic decisions at arming stage. Basically, a guessing game of what they will face. (Makes Augury also quite valuable.)

 

Alex

 

PS Why would I take a combi-weapon if I can slug Bolter and Plasma Gun around?


Edited by ak-73, 03 April 2014 - 10:22 AM.

  • Lynata likes this

My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#10 Kshatriya

Kshatriya

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,686 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:47 AM

So what marines get is a main weapon and two sidearms (bolt pistol/chainsword) max (heavy weapons leave room for one sidearm). Anything else needs special permission.

Personally I don't like this much restriction. Especially for missions like A Stony Sleep that give out 100+ Req to characters who won't be able to take Termie armor or necessarily have Imperial assets to requisition (due to Renown or mission restrictions) I just don't see that there's enough stuff to spend it on.



#11 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,057 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:16 AM

Even for Uninitated PCs it's easily filled with Weapon Upgrades, Special Ammunition and Grenades. What I don't see is a Marine with a Flamer in hand and his Bolter slung around the torso. Also, handing out 100 Req to newly seconded should not be the norm.

 

Once you are Respected, and especially after reaching Distinguished, you have more than enough stuff to play with.

 

Alex


  • Lynata likes this

My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#12 herichimo

herichimo

    Member

  • Members
  • 887 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:32 PM

Generally bulk is the only issue with space marines. Generally I don't think a space marine could feasibly carry more than 2 heavies, and that is with some serious messing around. Generally most wouldn't want to carry around more than 1, additional bulk just slows them down.

 

 A space marine is deffinately NOT carrying around 2 ammo backpacks, nor an additional heavy attached to an ammo backpack, sorry common sense rule applies.

 

 

So what marines get is a main weapon and two sidearms (bolt pistol/chainsword) max (heavy weapons leave room for one sidearm). Anything else needs special permission.

Personally I don't like this much restriction. Especially for missions like A Stony Sleep that give out 100+ Req to characters who won't be able to take Termie armor or necessarily have Imperial assets to requisition (due to Renown or mission restrictions) I just don't see that there's enough stuff to spend it on.

 

This is pretty restrictive I agree (won't even discuss the "five hands" thing) it starts to turn the RPG into an FPS. You can find many places to bring more gear than you think without much difficulty, its just when you start getting into the bigger pieces of equipment you have issues.


  • Kshatriya likes this

#13 Lynata

Lynata

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,847 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:15 PM

it starts to turn the RPG into an FPS

 

I dunno - the "X hands" or "X slots" solution sounds more like intelligent streamlining to me. There is such a thing as too much detail... In the groups I played, most of the time I was the only one actually tracking weight limitations, and considering how rarely it played any role (about never), it felt pretty redundant after a while. I don't really know why I still kept doing it.

 

Also, considering that this equipment seems to be requisitioned anew for every mission, I'd wager the quartermaster would give you a funny look rather than the piece you want if you happen to ask him for some huge list.

 

... That being said, I am rather conservative when it comes to portraying what I know from the source material, so perhaps I just cannot get behind the idea of ~20 items dangling from a Marine's armour because it seems a bit alien and out of place to me.

 

 

As a compromise of sorts, if a Devastator player really, really, really wants to carry two heavy weapons, perhaps a Centurion suit would be a solution? Here's a thread with some suggested houserules.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#14 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,057 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:46 PM

The question you should be asking yourselves is: does the Codex Astartes support this? :D If not, chances are that the Watch Captain or Forgemaster won't either.

 

Space Marines are fairly set in their ways. There are rituals and lores to be observed. That's also why sharing equipment on a mission is treacherous ground. I'm playing a PBP in which me and some others at Famed renown are playing with Uninitiated PCs. It would be easy to circumvent the requisition mechanics through equipment sharing. I would discourage that as GM, making Machine Spirits rebel and Watch Captains dishing out harsh punishment unless it's an absolute emergency situations (like averting TPK).

 

In short: Space Marines are not just special forces. You don't do whatever you feel like, except as an exception. You are part of an ancient tradition and those traditions need to be followed.

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#15 WilliamAsher

WilliamAsher

    Member

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:26 PM

Depending on the character could he be looking to have a minion carry one for him as a special use item?  A lascannon for taking out the hive tyrant while he carries the heavy bolter for the hordes of smaller tyranids perhaps.  It seems more likely, and a Tech-priest could have servitors equiped with heavy weapons.



#16 Avdnm

Avdnm

    Member

  • Members
  • 91 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:47 AM

Depending on the character could he be looking to have a minion carry one for him as a special use item?

 

While I could imagine this for certain chapters, I'm not sure about Deathwatch. If, under any circumstances, I as GM would allow it, I'd really have an eye on all fear rolls.



#17 Calgor Grim

Calgor Grim

    Member

  • Members
  • 446 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:58 AM

I don't know about anyone else but I can't see the Deathwatch using much in the way of minions very often. Consider that in their roll they may need to perform acts of stealth or infiltration, boarding and harsh attacks, using a  non Astartes would perhaps only get in the way more than the potential benefit of them actually carrying gear for them. Since non marines are arguably less resilient, more susceptible to fear, insanity and corruption, using perhaps weaker gear...

 

I mean I can see Tech Marines needing servitors once in a while but their practical use is somewhat niche. However, I think First Founding allows players to acquire a Watcher in the Dark which could act as a carrier of items.


Loyal Missionary Father Grim of the Kingston 293rd Storm Troopers


#18 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,057 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:40 AM

Depending on the character could he be looking to have a minion carry one for him as a special use item?  A lascannon for taking out the hive tyrant while he carries the heavy bolter for the hordes of smaller tyranids perhaps.  It seems more likely, and a Tech-priest could have servitors equiped with heavy weapons.

 

While not impossible, you should always ask yourself the question: why doesn't every DW marine do it then?

 

To me, the most acceptable version is to store an additional weapon in a Rhino or other vehicle and to change weapons during mission as needed. As Watch Captain, I would probably put limits on that though. Can't drive half an armory around.

 

Alex


  • Lynata likes this

My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#19 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,071 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:48 AM

Really, there should be a Bulk mechanic instead of an Encumbrance mechanic for marines.



#20 WilliamAsher

WilliamAsher

    Member

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:49 AM

Dark Angels can have Watchers in the Dark, as they are cannon and even carry things for marines in battle.  I believe they normally carry relics and such, but don't know if that is a specific limit.  They are 'near immune to all acts of violence and psychic powers' as well.  Techmarine using servitors to carry additional weapons makes sense too, and they can't feel fear.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS