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Longlases, how small can they get?


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#1 doomande

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 11:29 AM

So with a lot of undercover missions ahead of me, or the group and I are on our first one now and I can see how under equipped I am with only a fancy looking shock staff, do one question spring to mind: How small can you make a long las?

 

I do know that you can get compact editions of it, it then being more or less half its normal size meaning that it would more or less be the same size as a normal lasgun and look rather much like one if you have it in a casing or bag on your back.

 

But are there other ways to take it with you when you have to be a bit stealthy? I do think that I remember reading something in a book that a long las was "just" a  lasgun stuck with a better and bigger focusing lenses, so would the rest of you say that it is possible to run around with a normal lasgun and then shift the barrels out with a tech use check when needed? It is after all more normal to run around with a lasgun in the imperium than an longlas


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#2 Lynata

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 12:11 PM

The answer to this question will be very individual, so perhaps it'd be better if you were to ask your GM right away.  :)

 

From GW's fluff, it seems the long las really is just a standard lasgun with a reinforced barrel (to withstand the higher energy output) and "hot-shot" chargepacks, which would make your suggestion seem possible.

 

Other options that spring to mind might be to dismantle the weapon altogether and hide its parts in your clothes and/or luggage, or to simply rely on the locals not being able to tell the difference between a lasgun and a long las.

 

But all of this really depends on one's personal interpretation of what a long las truly "is".


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#3 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:17 PM

The idea of a compact sniper weapon strikes me as bizarre. The whole point is that it's, um, long. It's a bit akin to have a compact howitzer. ;)

 

This is what needle pistols are for.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 31 March 2014 - 09:31 PM.

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#4 Lynata

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:09 PM

I thought the point of sniper rifles was accuracy. "It's not about the length, it's about how you use it."  :D

 

Seriously, though - if the only difference between a lasgun and a long las is the chargepack (which you can switch) and the barrel (which you can switch), and if you can make compact lasguns, ... well.

 

Ultimately, we are talking about a laser. Unlike with traditional ballistic sniper rifles, a las beam will not travel faster just because you add half a meter to the weapon - the shot already "flies" at light speed, literally. Though apparently, contemporary arms development already knows bullpup sniper rifles, too!

 

Having taken a look at the book now, I see the Compact modifier can be attached to any weapon classified as basic las - this includes the long las. Personally, I'm not too fond of "bullpup lasguns" either, but ... *shrug*


Edited by Lynata, 31 March 2014 - 10:26 PM.

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#5 doomande

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 03:34 AM

It is true that light travels with a constant speed, but with different lenses do you have different focuses after all, and with different colours do you have different wave patterns and so on with some warmer than the other. That is at least what I think that the long barrel is forth, it is not a barrel in normal sense, but one giant lens.


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#6 Darth Smeg

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 05:44 AM

You lose half the range when you Compact a weapon, which kinda removed the point of a sniper-rifle.

 

But at least you're not proposing adding pistol grips in order to dual-wield compact las-rifles to gain the Accurate damage bonus when engaged in short-range shootouts :)


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#7 doomande

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:00 AM

You lose half the range when you Compact a weapon, which kinda removed the point of a sniper-rifle.

 

But at least you're not proposing adding pistol grips in order to dual-wield compact las-rifles to gain the Accurate damage bonus when engaged in short-range shootouts :)

 

There is cheese, and then are there this cheese! Sure it is nice with epic combos, but if I ever have to do something like this would I instead use recoil gloves, that way do I not get the -20% from the pistol grip. As a whole third thing does the errata say that you only can get the Accurate damage bonus if you shoot once in a round, so this is just a wasted idea. No what you need is a Cameleoline Cloak, a Guard Shield and a long las with your favoured scope and a back of overcharge packs, now are we talking!

 

Beside that, when have any of us actually used the full range of a weapon in a shoot out? I have never seen it, and real sniping are so rare that I only have heard and read of it and never experienced it either. I do know that compact are rather counter intuitive, seen in the perfect example of an compact howitzer. But I am more or less just looking for ways to get a long las with me without all turns their heads as I do so. Is it weird and hard to do, sure. But is that not what the whole game is about? Doing those odd things because we plan something epic with them.


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#8 Tenebrae

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:34 AM

It is true that light travels with a constant speed, but with different lenses do you have different focuses after all, and with different colours do you have different wave patterns and so on with some warmer than the other. That is at least what I think that the long barrel is forth, it is not a barrel in normal sense, but one giant lens.

I'd usually think of the barrel as one long cavity filled with a gain medium, which shouldn't need all that much lensing afterwards IIRC.
 

You lose half the range when you Compact a weapon, which kinda removed the point of a sniper-rifle.

The accuracy - and the bonus damage thereof is pretty important though

But at least you're not proposing adding pistol grips in order to dual-wield compact las-rifles to gain the Accurate damage bonus when engaged in short-range shootouts :)

On a vaguely related note: Twin-Linked Longlas.

#9 Adeptus-B

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:42 AM

My group's sniper had a similar question: can sniper rifles be broken down to fit in a foam-lined briefcase, like you see in movies? My ruling was that 'breakdown' would be an upgrade to an existing weapon, costing 50% of the weapon's base cost. If that helps...



#10 Darth Smeg

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:16 AM

Either an upgrade, or some sort of benefit from a best-quality pattern. 

 

It's a galaxy of guns, after all, and the ones in the book are just examples.


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#11 doomande

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:22 PM

Ahh, thanks for the ideas. I will take this up with my GM next time we are allowed to go shopping... Too bad that I brought myself a new long las with both this and that added to it before going undercover, it waiting on me in the base, just for me to buy a new one now


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#12 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:26 PM

When I imagine a compact long-las, I think of this scene: 

 

I imagine this is basically what a Dark Heresy Acolyte would be looking to do with a compact long-las :D

 

The rifle from that scene was carried into the skyscraper in a relatively innocuous briefcase -- it would still be clear that your character is carrying something, but it certainly wouldn't look like a precision sniping weapon. If there are weapons like this in the 21st century, I see no reason why a 41st-millennium Acolyte couldn't have a compact long-las.

 

Unlike with a silenced pistol or power blade, it's very difficult to conceal a rifle-sized weapon (even a disassembled one) without a carrying case of some kind. This means that while you could certainly sneak a long las into a sniping position, some assembly would be required before you could actually use the weapon. A skilled Acolyte could probably assemble such a weapon in one minute


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#13 doomande

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:36 PM

Unlike with a silenced pistol or power blade, it's very difficult to conceal a rifle-sized weapon (even a disassembled one) without a carrying case of some kind. This means that while you could certainly sneak a long las into a sniping position, some assembly would be required before you could actually use the weapon. A skilled Acolyte could probably assemble such a weapon in one minute

 A minute? Are you a sick heretic! It will take at least half an hour, you need the proper rites after all :rolleyes:


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#14 Lynata

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:03 PM

It is true that light travels with a constant speed, but with different lenses do you have different focuses after all, and with different colours do you have different wave patterns and so on with some warmer than the other. That is at least what I think that the long barrel is forth, it is not a barrel in normal sense, but one giant lens.

 

Hmm, depends on how you interpret the barrel's purpose - the latest IG Codex simply describes it as "reinforced", with the range and power of the weapon actually coming from the higher energy discharge (the hot-shot chargepack), which leads to reduced beam dissipation.

 

This would still mean that you cannot reduce the barrel size, mind you, else (even if one were to go by my interpretation) you'd probably melt your own gun with the first couple shots.  :D

 

My idea was based on keeping the barrel sizes whilst simply switching what makes a lasgun a compact lasgun. I was assuming it's not the barrel, but rather the alignment of the various parts ... like a bullpup rifle is shorter than one with a magazine in front of the trigger, even though it may have the exact same barrel size - simply because it shifts part of the machinery into the stock.

 

That being said, I am also relying entirely on visual impressions here - according to which the "inner" barrel of a long las seems exactly as long as that of a lasgun, the difference between both actually being the silencer-like muzzle. Under these conditions, any tinkering with the pattern that would reduce the length of a lasgun would also reduce the size of a long las by exactly the same length.

 

One could even assume that the vaunted long las is actually just a modified lasgun with a different chargepack and barrel - just like the Stalker sniper boltgun of the Space Marines has, in GW fluff, been described as a bog-standard boltgun where someone just stuck a targeter on top and attached a silencer. But that's merely a wild guess, of course.

 

You lose half the range when you Compact a weapon, which kinda removed the point of a sniper-rifle.

 

If he gets a telescopic sight (which any good sniper should have), this would only become an issue if he wants to assassinate people rather than being the "designated marksman" of his cell... What makes the long las interesting is probably the Accurate trait moreso than the 50 meters of difference it has to the lasgun - or at least this is what I'm assuming doomande is after?

 

My group's sniper had a similar question: can sniper rifles be broken down to fit in a foam-lined briefcase, like you see in movies? My ruling was that 'breakdown' would be an upgrade to an existing weapon, costing 50% of the weapon's base cost. If that helps...

 

Technically, every rifle should be able to be broken down into parts. They're not made from one piece, after all, and proper cleaning would even require disassembly.

 

However, given that this is 40k, I might well consider that this is actually forbidden because only properly anointed personnel is allowed to open the blessed iron skin of a machine to tend to the spirit beneath or some such Mechanicus nonsense! Not that the owner actually has to abide by such teachings, though, if he or she is from a place more accustomed to technology yet mostly untouched by AdMech presence (such as an Underhive) - but this would depend on the individual player character. Might make for some interesting religious conflict RP potential within the group, though. :)


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#15 doomande

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:03 PM

Just as Lynata said, I am interrested in the accurate trait. But we should not forget the lovely two extra points of pen that it gives as well!

 

About taking a lasgun apart am I rather sure that it is okay to take the "ground pieces" apart, (stock, muzzle lens, barrel and so on) mostly because of something that I read in The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, that the guards are given replacements barrels and that there is even (GASP!) a picture of a las rifle that are apart! Beside that are the battery there is running it all technically a part of the whole machine, and you are allowed to take that out and put a new one in... Even if you have to say sorry to your gun for doing it, if you follow the Primer that is.


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#16 Lynata

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:57 PM

Aye, it's a matter of interpretation / preferred sources. I only really like and recommend the IIUP for its entertainment value - but as an actual source of background info ... well, let's just say that there's no way I am going to believe that an Imperial Guardsman is packing that much equipment, especially when Codex fluff has been telling me for years that the only standard piece of equipment is the lasgun itself. Not to mention the contradictions about said lasgun's properties.

 

But it's certainly not "wrong", it just comes down to what version of the setting we follow. I've never really thought about this until I was typing my previous post, but personally I kind of feel that the idea of proper weapons maintenance being prevented out of misguided religious beliefs turned into military regulations being pretty grimdark in their own right, thus adding to the overall atmosphere of the setting.  ;)

 

(for what it's worth, I also think the lasgun is like the AK-47 of the setting, and does not actually need regular maintenance and interior cleaning to continue working, somewhat alleviating the issue of it ceasing to function due to improper care - part of why it's so popular in the Guard is because this is one weapon you can issue to Feral World cavemen without worrying about malfunctions)

 

 

Regarding the 2 points of Pen - keep in mind that 1 point is going to be negated by the Compact perk! That said ... you could of course use it in conjunction with Hot-Shot Charges too. You'd have to reload after each shot (essentially "wasting" every 2nd attack), but you'd offset the -1 damage from Compact, gain even more Penetration, and the Tearing trait.

 

As a sniper, you are probably going to engage individual heavy armoured foes more than groups of lightly-armoured enemies, and the long las is Single Shot anyways, so let someone with an autogun deal with groups whilst you pour damage onto priority targets. Given how AP and TB stack in Dark Heresy, one powerful attack is way more useful than two hits that just barely cause any damage (if at all!).


Edited by Lynata, 01 April 2014 - 11:04 PM.

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#17 bojan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:46 PM

 

 A minute? Are you a sick heretic! It will take at least half an hour, you need the proper rites after all :rolleyes:

 

On more serious note actually much less, anyone with half of brain and given basic training can disassemble and reasamble AKs in about 30  sec, and Lasguns are supposed to be "ultimate idiot proof weapons"...


Edited by bojan, 02 April 2014 - 07:50 PM.


#18 Tenebrae

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:23 AM

2 things:
 
1)

A minute? Are you a sick heretic! It will take at least half an hour, you need the proper rites after all :rolleyes:

On more serious note actually much less, anyone with half of brain and given basic training can disassemble and reasamble AKs in about 30  sec, and Lasguns are supposed to be "ultimate idiot proof weapons"...

No, probably about right. You do need the proper rights after all.

2) The AK-47 was considered the gold standard for reliability of gun for years, because it had 7 moving parts. Almost nothing could go wrong.
If you build a lasgun properly (like, base on how lasers work, not based on Abnett), you'd need 2 moving parts: the trigger and the rest of the weapon.
Which I for one would be tempted to seal in durable polymers ("plastic") and tell soldiers that trying to break it apart is a punishable offence.
Modern weapons work on mechanical principles, with a chemical reaction (explosion) taking place internally. This means wear and tear is inevitable and you will need to clean it.
Lasguns have neither. You need to close a circut, everything else can be done electrically/electronically. No chemical reaction, no mechanical wear (except around the trigger).
No traditional projectile, so no stress on the barrel.
There could be problems with the gain cavity or the alignment of the lenses, but my guess is these would require skilled assistance, not a clumsy grunt. Indeed I see people trying to fix it on their own to be much more likely to introduce problems into the weapon than anything else, as grit would probably be more of a problem than just about anything else.
Seal the weapon and leave it to professionals to fix it.

Now, we obviously cannot take that approach if we want to be able to break the weapon apart to carry in a suitcase, but for a standard weapon? probably the best idea.
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#19 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:48 AM

I thought the point of sniper rifles was accuracy. "It's not about the length, it's about how you use it."  :D

 

Seriously, though - if the only difference between a lasgun and a long las is the chargepack (which you can switch) and the barrel (which you can switch), and if you can make compact lasguns, ... well.

 

Ultimately, we are talking about a laser. Unlike with traditional ballistic sniper rifles, a las beam will not travel faster just because you add half a meter to the weapon - the shot already "flies" at light speed, literally. Though apparently, contemporary arms development already knows bullpup sniper rifles, too!

 

Having taken a look at the book now, I see the Compact modifier can be attached to any weapon classified as basic las - this includes the long las. Personally, I'm not too fond of "bullpup lasguns" either, but ... *shrug*

 

But, if you lose the barrel, then you lose what is (presumably) giving it the Accurate quality, meaning that what you have is a compact lasgun.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 03 April 2014 - 03:48 AM.


#20 Lynata

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:41 AM

But, if you lose the barrel, then you lose what is (presumably) giving it the Accurate quality, meaning that what you have is a compact lasgun.

 

I'm not sure what exactly gives the lasgun the Accurate quality (technically, it should be the scope, or simply superior craftsmanship - how would barrel length modify the accuracy of a straight beam of light?), but ... that's kind of what I meant above. You don't lose the barrel, you move it and the firing assembly further back. At least that's how the bullpup design works.

 

lasguns.jpg

 

Take the lower lasgun and turn it into a compact version.

Now do exactly the same with the upper gun - voila, compact long las, with no changes to barrel length.


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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)




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