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Just confirming my loss of a game.


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#1 Jaidyn

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 03:47 PM

Hello everyone! :-)

I just wanted to double check something. At first I thought my partner and I had beat our game but looking back, I am having my doubts. Perhaps you can assist in helping resolve this?

The doom token was at 1. There are no more mythos cards in the mythos deck. Before we are on the mythos phase, my encounter turn is over, then my partner is attempting to close a gate and solve Azathoths 3rd mystery.

The gate gets closed successfully, two clues spent, and an eldritch token is placed on the mystery card. Now the mythos phase comes up. There are no more cards to draw.

 

I am thinking we lost because it wasn't the end of the mythos phase since it couldn't really begin, or am I misinterpreting that? Is that a win?

 

I have seen another person on this forum try to clarify exactly what consists of a win regarding the mythos deck and mysteries, but for some reason I just wasn't getting what they were trying to say. All I know is that if you can't draw another mythos card when you need to, you lose. If you solve 3 mysteries before the AO wakes up, you win. In the rare instances where you may lose and win, you win. 

 

Help?



#2 Julia

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 04:04 PM

You don't lose the game when you're instructed to draw a Mythos card from an empty deck. If you cannot draw from the Mythos deck, then the Mythos phase ends and investigators lose the game (ref guide, pag 9).

 

So, not drawing makes you go immediately to the end of the Mythos phase where you check for mysteries.

 

If you completed the third mystery during that round, two things happen:

 

a) you lose the game

b) you win the game because of the three Mysteries solved

 

both things happen at the same time (end of the Mythos phase) so it's a conflict. Reference guide, pag 4, under conflicts, reads:

 

If multiple effects would be resolved at the same time, the active player decides the order in which they are resolved.

 

So, you choose if a) or b). Generally speaking, you'd choose to resolve b) before a), so, yeah, you won that one


Edited by Julia, 29 March 2014 - 04:04 PM.

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#3 Jaidyn

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 04:15 PM

Thank you very much! That exact scenario (the conflict) is what I was thinking happened. I just wanted to be extra certain. I didn't want to claim a win without really earning it. 
Thank you again. :-)



#4 Julia

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 04:24 PM

You're welcome ;)


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#5 Fenyx

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 07:13 AM

MCsiEPY.jpg

 

... I'll show myself out.


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#6 Mephisto666

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:22 PM

I also have to go with "A"... I think to much is being read into the reference wording.  The phase ends immediately - you don't do anything else that would happen in that phase.

 

The rule book page 11 words (losing) as "The investigators are required to draw a Mythos card but
cannot because the Mythos deck is empty."



#7 Julia

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:57 AM

Not so sure I follow your reasoning Mephisto.

 

You're saying you lose the game regardless of the rules, or are you joking?

 

Rules are pretty clear about what happens. Additionally, if the intention was that as soon as you have to draw a card but cannot, you lose the game, what's the sense of playing an additional round after the last Mythos is resolved? Just to lose another half an hour doing something thematic but useless?


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#8 C2K

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:57 AM

I can see both sides of the argument, but I wouldn't mind an official ruling. 



#9 Julia

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:13 AM

I asked this same question to Nikki while playtesting Forsaken Lore and she gave me the answer I just quoted.

 

I guess I can dig out the original message, though, if needed


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#10 Julia

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:14 AM

Nevermind, found:

 

I'd also like to clear up a small misunderstanding. If the third Mystery would be solved on the final round, the Mythos Phase ends without resolving a Mythos card and both the win condition and loss condition are met at once. In such a case, the investigators win the game. If this wasn't true, as you've said, there would be no reason to play out that round.

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#11 Mephisto666

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:48 PM

Not so sure I follow your reasoning Mephisto.

 

You're saying you lose the game regardless of the rules, or are you joking?

I quoted the rules from Page 11... did I make a mistake in that?  Or did you not read my response?

 

You would play the "last round" if during the game you had awakened the ancient one, already complete 3 mysteries, and had a chance to complete the final mystery...  or am I mistaken?



#12 C2K

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:51 PM

I quoted the rules from Page 11... did I make a mistake in that?  Or did you not read my response?

 

You would play the "last round" if during the game you had awakened the ancient one, already complete 3 mysteries, and had a chance to complete the final mystery...  or am I mistaken?

 

 

 

On page 9 of the reference guide under "Mythos", it says:

 

"If the Mythos deck is empty, the discard pile is not shuffled into the deck.  Instead, if a Mythos card cannot be drawn, the Mythos Phase ends and the investigators lose the game."

 

However, the designer ruled that you can still check for a player victory since the Mythos Phase has ended and both conditions for a victory and a loss can be checked.  And since if effects that happen at the same time can be resolved in the order of the active player's choosing, you can choose to win the game before the loss condition happens. 


Edited by C2K, 02 April 2014 - 11:53 PM.

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#13 Julia

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:58 AM

Mephisto, I read all answers before posting mine. You cannot relate only to the core rulebook: it's stated that the core rulebook gives a general idea of what's going on, but for detailed rules you have to refer also to the reference guide.

 

The point is what C2K said (and that's why Nikki gave that answer):

 

"If the Mythos deck is empty, the discard pile is not shuffled into the deck.  Instead, if a Mythos card cannot be drawn, the Mythos Phase ends and the investigators lose the game."

 

If the wording were "if a Mythos card cannot be drawn, the investigators lose the game", then, fine, there's nothing you can do at this regard.

 

But the sentence is actually worded differently (and yes, Eldritch Horror is a game that is on a higher level than other FFG products in terms of attention to the wording): it states two things:

 

a) the Mythos Phase ends

b) investigator lose the game

 

but a) implies other things to be checked, including the eventual resolution of a mystery. From here, the reading of the rules tha Nikki gave us.

 

As for resolving winning or losing before, you don't choose the order in which conditions are resolved. Pag 11 of the reference book reads:

 

In the rare circumstance that both of these effects happen at the same time, investigators win the game.

 

So, you win.


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#14 Shooock

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:07 AM

For me you lose, and this is the why.

 

 

"If the Mythos deck is empty, the discard pile is not shuffled into the deck.  Instead, if a Mythos card cannot be drawn, the Mythos Phase ends AND the investigators lose the game."

 

Like says Julia, the FFG puts a lot of attention to the words. The word "AND"  makes the event, an atomic event. So, can't divide it. The mythos phase end and you lose, all togherer.



#15 Shooock

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:10 AM

Otherwise, would write:

"If the Mythos deck is empty, the discard pile is not shuffled into the deck.  Instead, if a Mythos card cannot be drawn, the Mythos Phase ends and the investigators lose the game unless haven't win."


Edited by Shooock, 03 April 2014 - 11:11 AM.


#16 Cerebud

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:52 PM

Hi, new guy here. I think Nikki is right.

 

That said, I really don't like how the game ends when you run out of Mythos cards. It makes the game feel like it ran out of things to do, so it stops. I've never gone through an entire Mythos deck while playing, so I'm just speculating. I think I'd make a house rule at that point and just stick random Mythos cards under the deck or something.



#17 Julia

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:36 PM

Hi, new guy here. I think Nikki is right.

 

Thanks. Considering she's the designer, inventor of the game and responsible for the rules questions about EH, I really don't understand:

 

a) how she could be not right

b) why we're still talking about this

 

Rules are clear. We have the official answer from the designer. So what?

If you don't like it, play the way you want.

 

If you ask for the correct ruling, we have one. Period.


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#18 C2K

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:35 PM

I hope this clarification gets added to the next faq/errata update.  Perhaps even adding it to the revised edition of the game when the time comes for it.  You have to admit that it seems very confusing before the official ruling. 

 

Still, I don't know how many games this will ever affect to cause such disagreement with an official ruling.  I've played 24-26 games of EH so far and this only affected one game's outcome out of that sample size.  This game doesn't have many "wth just happened?!" effects like some other Co-ops out there, so most people have an idea whether or not they are going to win before the Mythos deck runs out.



#19 Eyefink

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:31 PM

Also, under Winning/Losing in the Reference Book, the first line says that if investigators win and lose the game at the same time, they win. Just to add in more clarification if anyone wanted it.
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