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Ratcatcher and Waywatcher builds - looking for suggestions


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#1 rmusic1971

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:11 PM

Hello,

 

My wife and I have never played WFRP before.

We are going to be starting a game in the next couple of months with a few friends.  

We sat down and start to talk about characters a bit but we both still don't have a great understanding of how things work exactly.  I doubt we will until we run through some sample scenarios (which we plan to do), but I would like to have something decent to start with.

 

That all being said...my wife is going to be playing a Human Ratcatcher and I am going to be playing a Wood Elf Waywatcher and I would like to hear peoples suggestions for characteristics, skills, actions, talents etc.

 

Our GM has said that we will start with our "Typical Trappings" on the backs of our cards regardless of wealth.

 

Other than that I know very little about the game and would love to hear everyones sincere suggestions and comments.  (also interested in advanced career suggestions etc for the waywatcher...whether home grown or rules based)

 

Thank you all in advance!

 

Rick - new WFRP player :)



#2 Preacherman

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:29 PM

1st off, welcome to the community and the game itself.

 

Secondly, I don't know if this is your first foray into the world of Warhammer or just WFRP, but you should know that it's (supposed to be, depends on GM though) an extremely hard core, grim dark world, so prepare yourself (and your wife) for the very real possibility that you might be creating another character in a few sessions time :) Not to sound harsh, but it does happen in WFRP quite a bit that characters die.

 

Ok, now for my 2 brass:

 

The Waywatcher:

 

The Waywatcher is an extremely powerful ranged class. You most likely won't start with, but if you advance enough and your GM is cool with it, there's an item for you called the Bow of Athel Loren, which is an awesome longbow. You have a lot of versatility in actions, and should most of the time be in the back.

 

Stats:

 

You will automatically start with the following stats:

 

Strength: 2

Toughness: 2

Agility: 4

Intelligence: 2

Willpower: 4

Fellowship: 2

 

Agility and Fellowship are 3-3 starting for the Wood Elf, and the Waywatcher's Primary Attributes (as you can see on the career card) are Agility and Willpower, so you increase them for free to 4.

 

If you have the Player's guide, the explanation on how to spend creation points (of which you as an elf have 20) is extremely good. You should also have that table of how many points each thing costs. It costs you an amount of creation points to increase a stat = the new value. Stats are pretty important in the game, and I would go with the following stat build (personal preference):

 

Strength: 3

Toughness: 3

Agility: 5

Intelligence: 3

Willpower: 4

Fellowship: 2

 

That means 14 points spent out of the 20. I know, it's a lot, and arguably, you don't need Strength 3,  to be honest, but it never hurts when you have to break free from a ghoul's hold, or you have some Athletics check to pass. Fellowship hurts, but then again, you're a Wood Elf. It should be illegal for you to have more than 2 Fellowship. Hell, they hate everyone, and just barely -tolerate- SOME Bretonnians. :)

 

Action Cards:

 

When it comes to Action cards, there aren't THAT many great ones, and you're going to pick up 3 during your progression, so I'd spend 3 creation points and go with the following:

 

- Arrowstorm

- Rapid Fire (reckless side is better since it was FAQ'd that you can only shoot 2 shots with conservative face up or 3 with reckless side up)

- Immobilising Shot (conservative side is slightly better since you can add 1 token for 1 boon instead of 2)

- Sniper Shot (if the target has very high soak, reckless side up, otherwise, conservative side)

 

 

I would then proceed during the character's progression to pick up:

 

- Improved Dodge

- Find Weakness (You want the conservative face up on this, so that you can keep removing those purples).

- Berzerker Rage!

 

Talents:

 

I wouldn't spend more than 1 point here, as you're going to be choosing 1 during the character progression anyway. I'd go with:

 

- Quick Wits (Exhaust to remove 2 recharge tokens from an action card). By using this talent, you'll be able to spam Rapid Fire 2 turns in a row. 

 

During character progression, I'd go with a Tactic talent like: 

 

- Exceptional Training or Coordinated Efforts (choose 1, both are good).

 

Skills:

 

That leaves us with 2 points for Skills. That means 3 trained + 1 specialization. I would go with:

 

- Nature Lore, Athletics, Ballistic Skill (specializing here in: Bow)

REMEMBER: You get a free training as a wood elf, that I would use for Observation.

 

How to play the guy:

 

Always be in the back. At the beginning of fights, look around, see what's happening. If there's one big bad dude, you should do the following:

 

1. Adjust to 1 space deep in Conservative

2. use Immobilising Shot on big bad dude.

 

Turn 2:

 

1. use Find Weakness using conservative side on big bad dude

2. spend 1 fatigue to use Berzerker Rage!

3. use Rapid Fire on its reckless side

 

Turn 3:

 

1. Exhaust Quick Wits. 

2. remove 2 tokens from Rapid Fire

3. use Rapid Fire again on big bad dude.

 

He should be dead.

 

Assuming he's not, you can instead use Immobilising shot again.

 

Against multiple enemies:

 

1. Adjust to 1 space deep in Conservative

2. use Find Weakness

3. use Arrowstorm

 

Turn 2:

 

1. Adjust to 2 space deep in Conservative

2. use Rapid Fire on Conservative side

3. use Talent, remove 2 tokens from Arrowstorm

 

Turn 3:

 

1. use Find Weakness again if it has refreshed, if not go to 2

2. use Arrowstorm



#3 Preacherman

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 09:29 PM

Ok well attachments are way too complicated for my little brain on this forum, so I added 2 .pdf files of how your character sheet should look for the Waywatcher according to my build, when starting out and also when rank2

 

I should mention that all of the stuff I wrote is how I would play the Waywatcher. I don't have any doubts that it's not nearly optimized, and could be done way better.

 

Starting out:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/or2rig

 

10 Advancements deep:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/6rrno3

 

Each file is a 2 page .pdf (filled in character sheets)

 

 

I'm gonna leave the ratcatcher stuff for someone else, as it's a class I've never been interested in, so I can't comment on it one bit.



#4 Emirikol

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 11:21 PM

WELCOME TO wfrp.  

 

Download the pre-generated characters at :   http://www.liberfana...F7download.html

There is a sample of each career.  That will give you a great help.

 

 

 

You can also look at some completely random characters here (HIT F9 TO MAKE NEW ONE):

 https://dl.dropboxus...erator 2.4.xlsx

 

..and get yourself a copy of the Player's Guide.

 

jay h


Edited by Emirikol, 28 March 2014 - 11:25 PM.


#5 Ralzar

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 06:24 AM

Welcome!

 

Generally speaking I would say to not worry too much about exactly what points you put into what etc. Just make a character you think sounds cool with stats and actions that match your vision of him. The fun in WFRP comes from roleplaying your character, not getting the best stats or whatever. Besides, there are limits to how much you can screw up unless you do something really weird like make an uncharismatic fighter and that only take social actions. As long as you stick with a consise vision of the character, it'll probably be fine.

 

Here are some general advice though:

Toughness and Willpower determine how good your character is at not dying and not going insane. If you have 2 in either of these stats the chances of dying do go up quite a bit.

In WFRP min/maxing does not always pay off. If you build a one trick pony, that GM might decide to screw you over time and time again by putting your character in situations where he has to rely his weakest abilities. For example, putting a low Willpower fighter in a situation where he has to resist temptations or resist having a mental breakdown, or an archer in a fight in an enclosed space, or a frail scholar in a fistfight.

Min/maxed characters are just as powerful as the GM allows them to be. Characters with more well-rounded builds can make it through most situations.


Edited by Ralzar, 29 March 2014 - 06:25 AM.


#6 Preacherman

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 07:11 AM

Welcome!

 

Generally speaking I would say to not worry too much about exactly what points you put into what etc. Just make a character you think sounds cool with stats and actions that match your vision of him. The fun in WFRP comes from roleplaying your character, not getting the best stats or whatever. Besides, there are limits to how much you can screw up unless you do something really weird like make an uncharismatic fighter and that only take social actions. As long as you stick with a consise vision of the character, it'll probably be fine.

 

Here are some general advice though:

Toughness and Willpower determine how good your character is at not dying and not going insane. If you have 2 in either of these stats the chances of dying do go up quite a bit.

In WFRP min/maxing does not always pay off. If you build a one trick pony, that GM might decide to screw you over time and time again by putting your character in situations where he has to rely his weakest abilities. For example, putting a low Willpower fighter in a situation where he has to resist temptations or resist having a mental breakdown, or an archer in a fight in an enclosed space, or a frail scholar in a fistfight.

Min/maxed characters are just as powerful as the GM allows them to be. Characters with more well-rounded builds can make it through most situations.

 

I kind of feel like this post was mostly aimed at me. I want to say that I agree that rp-ing is more important than min-maxing, but that the 2 are not mutually exclusive things. I personally find the "just build your character how you think would be ok, and have fun roleplaying him" to be silly.

 

If I build a warrior priest that in my mind is luthor huss-like, only to find I messed up on my actions, or on my build, and he's squishier than the party's wizard, that might ruin the game for me a bit. If I build a wizard, and put in 3 Int and 3 WP, then realize I'm failing most of my spellcraft checks, or the ones that succeed are rarely strong, that will also ruin things for me.

 

There's nothing saying that you can't optimize your build (to your gamestyle, obviously. Like I said, my example for the Waywatcher is just personal play style preference) and at the same time have fun roleplaying, or be forced to become a one-dimensional character. For a while now I've been meaning to create a dwarf Ironbreaker that is friendly towards elves, doesn't automatically like other dwarves, and hates alcohol. But he's awesome at fighting, so demands the respect of his peers.

 

Either way, your GM is indeed always the voice of God, so what you said about a GM being able to put you down even though you're optimized is true for any system, not just WFRP. And personally, I'd rather have a Waywatcher that is mostly very good at combat, to the point that the GM has to up the ante (though I am completely against the GM being a d**k and just giving you impossible circumstances), rather than a poor to average Waywatcher that fails most of the things he attempts, or just BARELY succeeds, but the GM doesn't intervene.

 

Yeah, gonna love roleplaying that Waywatcher that got beaten to death by an Ungor cause he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn :) 

 

"You're jumped by 3 enemies. Waywatcher, you're the 1st in initiative, your teammates are passed out.
- oh, ok, can I shoot at all of them?
- No, I mean you could, but only with Arrow Storm or Rapid Fire. 

- I .... don't have those. 

- Ah well..then ok, you shoot and kill 1 of them. the remaining 1 night goblin comes over and knocks you out, while the 3rd coup de grace's your teammates".

 

Fun times :)



#7 Preacherman

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 07:19 AM

Not to mention that it's not even a mix-maxing like in D&D, where you'd get ridiculous things like a dwarf priest/mage that worships the goddess of magic, and can grow to the size of a giant, and has feats from the book for northern barbarians mixed with feats from the book for desert dwellers. 

 

Most optimizations in WFRP that I've found, make sense. Mine for instance does in fact fit in (sort of) with the established fluff. It can't fit in perfectly, because Waywatchers (Imo) shouldn't even be in the game, given how rare and exceedingly powerful they are meant to be. Essentially every single shot fired would be shot from such a distance and cover, that you should never be able to see/find the Waywatcher. Armor soak should never be used against any sort of attack from a Waywatcher, etc.

 

But hey, given the class as it is, I think my character makes sense. It's agile as f**k (Ag: 5), has got a nasty case of superiority complex and is very hard to like/get along with (F: 2). Waywatchers tend to be solo sort of guys rather than groups, they live and disappear within Athel Loren, sometimes only rejoining the community once every few years. All the stuff they see and fight makes them resistant to terror or fear (W: 4). While not book smart, most wood elves tend to be "wood smart" (I: 3), and although nowhere near the sort of physical resistance of other races, their constant exertion in the woods gives them slightly above average physical qualities (S3, T3)



#8 Ralzar

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 09:06 AM

True, it is absolutely possible to to minmax and make a roleplaying character at the same time. But WFRP is a bit special in that minmaxed characters tends to fare worse than more balanced characters. It's good to remember that when you are creating a WFRP character. In many other systems people who dabble in multiple roles tend to be overshadowed by the specialists. Two warrior-mages are not as good as a warrior and a mage, for example. So people who come from other RPGs are used to choosing a "role" for their character and putting all points towards specialising in that role.

The difference is probably that WFRP is less combat oriented than some other RPGs (I'm looking at you D&D). The characters will find themselves in all kinds of situations where all aspects of the character will be tested. And the specialists tend to face-plant spectacularly when they run into a situation that challenges their "min" instead of their "max" :D

So there is nothing wrong with min/maxing, but you should then go into the game ready to be more amused than frustrated when your character embarrasses himself with his ineptitude in some situations.


Edited by Ralzar, 29 March 2014 - 09:09 AM.


#9 Emirikol

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:54 PM

A lot can depend upon the diversity of your GM's thinking as well.  If they are a D&D DM with only combat in mind and don't know how to use lots of diverse skill challenges and checks, with lots of diverse consequences, then you'd just as well play an ironbreaker and be bored to tears (unless you only want to do combats..in which you'd be in heaven).

 

WFRP's best highlight has always been that you are playing a character with a career that ISN'T distilled down and can use a large variety of skiills and specializations (and your own creativity) to solve problems.  In the random adventure generator I created, hit F9 a couple times and take a look at the 2 skill checks and specialization beneath the "bestiary" entry.  Imagine solving an issue with an orc, ogre, or giant without ONLY  resorting to combat.  You'll get the idea :)

 

https://dl.dropboxus...Output 1.1.xlsx

 

jh


Edited by Emirikol, 29 March 2014 - 12:54 PM.


#10 Preacherman

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 03:47 PM

True, it is absolutely possible to to minmax and make a roleplaying character at the same time. But WFRP is a bit special in that minmaxed characters tends to fare worse than more balanced characters. It's good to remember that when you are creating a WFRP character. In many other systems people who dabble in multiple roles tend to be overshadowed by the specialists. Two warrior-mages are not as good as a warrior and a mage, for example. So people who come from other RPGs are used to choosing a "role" for their character and putting all points towards specialising in that role.

The difference is probably that WFRP is less combat oriented than some other RPGs (I'm looking at you D&D). The characters will find themselves in all kinds of situations where all aspects of the character will be tested. And the specialists tend to face-plant spectacularly when they run into a situation that challenges their "min" instead of their "max" :D

So there is nothing wrong with min/maxing, but you should then go into the game ready to be more amused than frustrated when your character embarrasses himself with his ineptitude in some situations.

 

The build I made in particular is hardly min maxed, as nothing except for Fellowship is minimized, and it's pretty much balanced for everything (other than social encounters), with exceptional combat ability. Pretty much jack of -most- trades, master of combat :)


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#11 Ghost of Snori

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:46 AM

For the Way watcher, as above both Arrowstorm and  Rapid Fire are both reallt good choices. For the Ratcatcher, I've never actually played one so I can't say but most points will probably go towards making the Small but Vicious Dog even more vicious Bite and Shake is a good trick for helping the group in a fight. putting some points in fellowship since that was animal handling runs off of would be good as well.

 

As for the Lethality of the game in the past campain I was in we ran through at least 12 game sessions before we had one character death and that was because my Troll slayer went on a suicide run against an fleet of Dark elves, intentionally killing off the character in glorious battle.

 

I don't tend to run games as "Grim-Dark" as warhammer can be but more so than most typical D&D games. let me know if you have any questions and I'll drop by with the game cards etc this weekend if you want.

Jules



#12 Eradico Pravus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:29 AM

I played a rat-catcher awhile ago and loved the character. Until my mean-spirited GM killed him at the climax of the aptly titled "Dying of the Light" campaign. :)

 

Here's my initial build and later advances. I made a mistake on this as I thought the rat-catcher received two free advances for trick talents.... cp or xp should have been spent on this (please don't tell my GM).

 
Dwarven Rat-Catcher
Primary Characteristics: Toughness, Agility
Career Skills: Animal Handling, Folklore, Observation, Resilience, Stealth
Talent Slots: Focus x1, Reputation x1
=============================
Initial CharGen (20 pts available)
Strength 3
Toughness 3  + 1 (free advance) =  4
Agility 2 + 1 (free advance) = 3  + 1 = 4  (4 cp)
Intelligence 2 + 1 = 3 (3 cp)
Willpower 2 + 1 = 3 (3cp)
Fellowship 2 + 1 = 3 (3 cp)
13 cp spent on characteristics
 
Azgaraz Dwarf Bonuses
Weapons Skill trained (Children of Grungni)
Grudge, Sturdy, Night Vision traits (p. 30, core rulebook)
Wounds 14 / Corruption 13
 
Initial Stance – 3 green (conservative) / 1 red (reckless)
Wealth—Broke (0)
 
4 skills + 2 specializations (3 cp)
Animal Handling, Folklore, Observation, Stealth
Spec: Command (animal handling), tracking (observation)
 
1 talent (1 cp)—Shadow Stalker
 
4 action cards (3 cp)
Fetch, Boy!, Tooth and Nail, Cut & Run, Backstab
 
Small but vicious dog
Initial Trick Talents (2): Warning Bark, Man’s Best Friend
 
=======================================
Experience Point Expenditures
 
[Rat-Catcher Advance Table: Action 2, Talent 2, Skill 3, Fortune 2, Conservative 1, Reckless 0, Wound 0]
 
Actions 2—Man’s Best Friend, Powerful Throw
 
Talent 2—Fearless (Reputation), Foresight (Focus)
 
Skill 3—Resilience, Hand Weapon (Spec: Weapons Skill),  Keen Vision (Spec: Observation)
 
Fortune 2—Agility, Toughness
 
+1 wound


#13 Eradico Pravus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:12 AM

I also try to answer the "10 Questions" from the core rules in order to develop character fluff. Here's my background for my rat-catcher:

 

Ten Questions

 

1. Where are you from?

Durgun is a clan-less, Karak-born dwarf who left the dwarf lands since he was viewed as an outcast.

 

2. What is your family like?

Durgun has no family as his father was killed by greenskins and his mother died working the mines as an indentured laborer.

 

3. What is your social class?

Durgun is bottom-rung amongst the dwarves due to his clan-less status; likewise in the Empire due to his race and vocation.

 

4. What did you do before becoming an adventurer?

Durgun made his way north through the Empire working as a rat-catcher, first in Nuln but eventually settling in Middenheim for about a decade.

 

5. Why did you become an adventurer?

Durgun tired of getting low wages for his hazardous labor. Middenheim public funds garnered him little and he kept getting screwed over by the local Halfling pie-shop. His work was already dangerous. The last straw was when his rat-catching buddy Skrim died when he fell into a feces-filled vat and was eaten by Nurglings. Durgun figures adventuring can’t be much worse than that.

 

6. How religious are you?

 Durgun is something of a skeptic. It’s not that he does not believe in dwarf ancestor worship, it’s just that he figures that none of his ancestors give a crap about him. Likewise he is skeptical about human and elven faiths. In his more drunken moments he may reveal a deep-seated hope that the legends of Ulric and Sigmar are true although when sober he states these are little more than children’s tales.

 

7. Who are your friends and enemies?

Durgun has a few friends amongst the impoverished of Middenheim, most notably a rat-tanner named Ralf. He also belongs to the local Rat-Catchers Union. His enemies include any Greenskin (killed his father) and the aristocrats of his Karak (whom he blames for the death of his Mum). He thinks all halflings are lying, dirty bastards.  Durgun tends to distrust anyone of wealth or privilege, be it dwarf, human, or elf.

His best friend, of course, is his small but vicious dog, “Grr.”

 

8. What are your prized possessions?

He has three. First a lock of hair from his mother’s beard encased in hardened tree sap which he carries as a charm. Secondly, the skull of a particularly large rodent . The rat chewed off the bottom of Durgun’s left ear and he feels by wearing its skull around his neck on a leather cord, he has the last laugh. Finally, the short-sword Durgun carries had been his father’s. Unfortunately during battle an Ork took the sword from the father and cut off his head. Durgun found his father’s head (with the sword stuck through his skull from ear to ear) on top of a giant steaming pile of Ork dung. Durgun carries this sword and bears a grudge against all greenskins.

 

Who are you loyal to?

Rat-catchers of all races are friends in the eyes of Durgun. He also feels a kin-ship to other clan-less dwarfs. Finally his rat-catcher union, although ineffectual in attaining decent wages, is seen as family by Durgun.

 

Who do you love/hate?

Durgun loves his dog, Grr, as his faithful pet has saved his skin several times over. He hates Greenskins and aristocratic land-owning dwarves of his home Karak.



#14 rmusic1971

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:16 PM

Thanks everyone...I haven't read anything yet (had a baby girl pretty quickly after posting this) but thank you all for the feedback.  I will be reading through it thoroughly.  A couple of my friends have read it already and said it is awesome...so thanks again.

 

Rick



#15 rmusic1971

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:52 PM

Ghost of Snori is my GM :)

Special thanks to Preacherman and Eradico Pravus.

I have roleplayed plenty so am comfortable with roleplaying whatever build I have...I definitely wanted to make sure I was making a character that did what i intended...which was be a great archer (since a waywatcher should be).

 

There are a couple of things that Preacherman suggest that I was already looked at and am super glad to know that they are actually good actions etc :)

 

I will read over the ratcatcher suggestions more closely with my wife and make sure that it resembles something she wants.

 

Thanks again guys!

MUCH appreciated :)

 

hehe and Ghost of Snori...so I havent looked at what it is but I can have a an Athel Longbow right? ;)  lol



#16 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:20 PM

 How to play the guy:

 

Always be in the back. At the beginning of fights, look around, see what's happening. If there's one big bad dude, you should do the following:

 

1. Adjust to 1 space deep in Conservative

2. use Immobilising Shot on big bad dude.

 

Turn 2:

 

1. use Find Weakness using conservative side on big bad dude

2. spend 1 fatigue to use Berzerker Rage!

3. use Rapid Fire on its reckless side

 

Turn 3:

 

1. Exhaust Quick Wits. 

2. remove 2 tokens from Rapid Fire

3. use Rapid Fire again on big bad dude.

 

He should be dead.

 

Assuming he's not, you can instead use Immobilising shot again.

 

Against multiple enemies:

 

1. Adjust to 1 space deep in Conservative

2. use Find Weakness

3. use Arrowstorm

 

Turn 2:

 

1. Adjust to 2 space deep in Conservative

2. use Rapid Fire on Conservative side

3. use Talent, remove 2 tokens from Arrowstorm

 

Turn 3:

 

1. use Find Weakness again if it has refreshed, if not go to 2

2. use Arrowstorm

 

I realize I'm being a little pedantic, especially since a month has gone buy since the post I'm quoting, but this "how to play" guide seems to be in serious error. Unless I'm misreading it, nearly every turn has the character taking more than the one  action allowed by the rules. Find Weakness, Berserker Rage and Rapid Fire cannot all three be used in the same turn (for example), as none of them are reactions.


Edited by r_b_bergstrom, 28 April 2014 - 12:20 PM.

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#17 Ralzar

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 01:20 PM

Yeah, I never looked through the example closely. That seems WAY off from what you can actually do in a round.



#18 Carcosa

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:11 PM

Did you ever get to play? (OP that is)



#19 Eradico Pravus

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 07:33 PM

Did you ever get to play? (OP that is)

 

Yeah, I'd be curious to hear how the ratcatcher did!



#20 Carcosa

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 07:45 PM

@ Ralzar, Re Min/maxing.

 

I have always found a great cure for min/maxed combat monkey's is to get them to play a few sessions of Chaosism era Call of Cthulhu, or perhaps some good old Paranoia. If that doesn't work, a little Cyberpunk 2020 will do wonders for peoples desire to just roll the dice :D  






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