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Lani Iron Throne vs out of play cards


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#1 mdprice

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:38 AM

Can the Lani Iron Throne, "Response: Kneel The Iron Throne to cancel a character ability just triggered", be used to cancel a character ability triggered on a character that is out of play like the Royal Entourage, "Response: After you play a Lord or Lady character from your hand, put Royal Entourage into play from your hand or discard pile."? I would think so I but I want to check. Then, in the case of the Royal Entourage, when it is canceled it would just stay in my hand.

 

 



#2 -Istaril

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:48 AM

Can the Lani Iron Throne, "Response: Kneel The Iron Throne to cancel a character ability just triggered", be used to cancel a character ability triggered on a character that is out of play like the Royal Entourage, "Response: After you play a Lord or Lady character from your hand, put Royal Entourage into play from your hand or discard pile."? I would think so I but I want to check. Then, in the case of the Royal Entourage, when it is canceled it would just stay in my hand.

 

 

Nope. When triggered from out of play, it's not considered a character ability. As such, it doesn't interact with out-of-play triggered responses at all. 

 

Furthermore, if you could trigger a cancel on Royal Entourage (say, with Alannys Greyjoy, who cancels any triggered effects), it wouldn't matter - because it's triggered from out of play, you could just trigger the same response (to the same lord/lady entering play) again. Unless your opponent really wanted to kneel Alannys... not much point. The reason for this last one is that the limit 1 response per trigger (per card) only applies to cards in play - presumably for practical reasons (how do I know you aren't triggering a second copy of the royal entourage, I only cancelled the first). 



#3 Khudzlin

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:11 AM

Actually, they're still character abilities, but not triggered character abilities and the wording "ability just triggered" refers only to triggered abilities (which require the source card to be in play when the ability is triggered).



#4 mdprice

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:37 AM

So now I'm confused. First off is it a character ability? From the FAQ:

 (3.7) Card Abilities
"Card abilities" (i.e. "Character ability," "Location ability," or "Attachment ability") refers to anything in a card's text box, except for traits, keywords, and flavor text. "Card abilities" also refers to any abilities (again, keywords and traits are excluded) gained by card effects.

 

I read this as it being a character ability. My understanding is cards out of play would still have their type because other card effects like Aegon's Hill refers to "character card" in a player's hand.

 

Then we have the question if it's a triggered effect. It reads "Response:..."

 

I put that together to read that it's a Triggered Character Ability.

 

The last question is if it can be repeated if it's canceled. I'll want to look around a little more on that one. Either way I'm confused here.



#5 ktom

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:38 AM

That whole 3.6, 3.7, and 3.11 definition of triggered effect/ability needs to be cleaned up.

 

Actually, they're still character abilities, but not triggered character abilities and the wording "ability just triggered" refers only to triggered abilities (which require the source card to be in play when the ability is triggered).

 

Everything said here is completely true under FAQ 3.7 and 3.11. However, IMHO, it glosses over the fact that all triggered abilities are triggered effects, but not all triggered effects are triggered abilities (as outlined in 3.6 and -Istaril's explanation). I read this and start to think that something like Royal Entourage would not be considered "triggered," which is not true. An effect that canceled an "effect just triggered" would be able to cancel it.

 

(I know you know all of this, Khudzlin. My comments here are more about the FAQ making it really hard to properly word an answer to this particular question.)



#6 mdprice

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:45 AM

I see it's not a Character Ability but it is a Character Effect and thus the Iron Throne wouldn't cancel it.

 

 

(3.6) Triggered Effects
Any effect that a player chooses to execute is considered a "triggered effect." Thus any effect that begins with a "Phase :" or "Response :" is a triggered effect. Also note that playing an event card is thus considered a triggered effect. A "triggered ability" is a triggered effect printed on a card already in play.



#7 mdprice

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:50 AM

Also, if a card gains the text: "Response: X", is that only considered a Triggered Effect and not a Triggered Ability because it's not printed on it? Does it matter if the card that caused it to gain the text is in play?



#8 ktom

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:52 AM

I put that together to read that it's a Triggered Character Ability.

 

You missed 3.6, which specifically says "A 'triggered ability' is a triggered effect printed on a card already in play." So any cancel effect that refers to "triggered ability" assumes that it is canceling something that was already in play when it was originally initiated. Essentially, what you quoted from 3.7 assumes the card is already in play.

 

The last question is if it can be repeated if it's canceled. I'll want to look around a little more on that one. Either way I'm confused here.

 

The thing to note here is that these are not event cards - which leave your hand as part of playing them. Event cards leave your hand as part of initiation, so if they are canceled, they still go to the discard pile. But non-event cards with a "put into play" Response effect do not technically leave your hand until they resolve. If they are canceled, their resolution - including leaving your hand - doesn't happen, leaving them where they started from.

 

Also, it is important to remember that the "one response per trigger" rule is also defined in terms of "ability" - so it only applies to cards that are in play when they are triggered. Unless a specific limit is written on the card itself, there is nothing stopping you from triggering Responses on a card that is not in play multiple times.



#9 ktom

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:55 AM

Also, if a card gains the text: "Response: X", is that only considered a Triggered Effect and not a Triggered Ability because it's not printed on it? Does it matter if the card that caused it to gain the text is in play?

 

The card that grants the text is not important. Only the card that gains the text. FAQ 3.8 is pretty clear than gained text becomes part of the card that gains it - and so an ability/effect of that card. 

 

The only difference between printed text and gained text is whether or not a blanking effect works against it. It doesn't factor into the definition of effect or ability at all.



#10 mdprice

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:01 PM

And for my own FAQ, here's what I put:

 

[Q] Can the Lani Iron Throne be used to cancel the effect of an out of play character ability like Royal Entourage?

[A] No, the Lani Iron Throne only cancels character abilities and that requires that the effect is triggered by a card in play. In the case of the Royal Entourage it is only a triggered effect and not a triggered ability thus it is not cancelable by the Iron Throne

[Iron Throne]: Response: Kneel the Iron Throne to cancel a character ability just triggered.

 

 

Also, it is important to remember that the "one response per trigger" rule is also defined in terms of "ability" - so it only applies to cards that are in play when they are triggered. Unless a specific limit is written on the card itself, there is nothing stopping you from triggering Responses on a card that is not in play multiple times.

 

I see, so even if someone were to cancel it, it would stay in my hand and I could trigger again as my next response. For reference here's the FAQ on the "one response per trigger":

 

 

(2.4) Responses Per Trigger
If a response or passive ability is triggered, the effect can only occur once per trigger. For example, if Sansa Stark (CORE S9) is in play and you play an attachment on her, Sansa Stark's effect (draw a card) can only be triggered once. (If a second attachment is played on Sansa Stark, her ability can be triggered again.)



#11 mdprice

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:01 PM

Thanks for the clarifications everyone!



#12 HastAttack

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:11 AM

Istaril said:

Furthermore, if you could trigger a cancel on Royal Entourage (say, with Alannys Greyjoy, who cancels any triggered effects), it wouldn't matter - because it's triggered from out of play, you could just trigger the same response (to the same lord/lady entering play) again.

 

There was a recent post re Royal Entourage and I thought the conclusion of that was that if RE is in your hand, you can just re-trigger it but if it is in your discard pile it cannot be re-triggered ... as it was cancelled in a known location (or similar)

 

I was under the impression that if I played a lord/lady and tried to trigger a RE in my discard pile, it could be cancelled (He calls it thinking) and I would not be able to retrigger without playing another lord/lady



#13 Khudzlin

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:11 AM

 

Also, it is important to remember that the "one response per trigger" rule is also defined in terms of "ability" - so it only applies to cards that are in play when they are triggered. Unless a specific limit is written on the card itself, there is nothing stopping you from triggering Responses on a card that is not in play multiple times.

 

 

Response on cards in visible out-of-play areas (agendas, plots, discard and dead pile) obey the "one responce per trigger" rule as well. Otherwise, The Siege of Winterfell would be beyond broken (it doesn't have an explicit "once per challenge" limit). Only cards in private out-of-play areas (hand and shadows) can bend that rule.



#14 mdprice

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:35 AM

Response on cards in visible out-of-play areas (agendas, plots, discard and dead pile) obey the "one responce per trigger" rule as well. Otherwise, The Siege of Winterfell would be beyond broken (it doesn't have an explicit "once per challenge" limit). Only cards in private out-of-play areas (hand and shadows) can bend that rule.

 

Is this in that FAQ anywhere or based on a ruling from FFG? The way the FAQ defines the "one response per trigger" I don't know understand how this works.



#15 Khudzlin

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 11:15 AM

It is based on a ruling by FFG that hasn't yet made its way into the FAQ (I hope it's in the upcoming one, though). Any response that is triggered while its source card is visible (agenda, used or revealed plot, in play, in the discard or dead pile) can only be triggered once per occurence of its condition. For instance, you can trigger the response on The Siege of Winterfell or The Blackfish (LoW) only once for each military challenge you win. Should the Blackfish's response be canceled, you can't trigger it again for the same military challenge. Responses that are triggered while their source card is hidden (hand or shadows) can be triggered again (though only if they are canceled, since they always put the source card into play), because the game doesn't know it's the same response that is triggered.



#16 mdprice

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 11:29 AM

Good to know, thanks for the info :)






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