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Variant "delving" play-mode more like 1E.


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#1 Madmartigan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:21 AM

I have been mulling over a set of variant rules for 2E to make it feel more like the dungeon delving aspect of 1E. 2E is really focused on campaign play, which is cool. But the single session epicness of the large quests of 1E has been lost. These variant rules would attempt to recapture some of that single session epicness, while keeping the core gameplay of 2E. Some of the issues posited in this context have been:

  1. Make it feel more like an adventure than a simple set of tactical skirmishes.
  2. Make it less of a race and more a risk vs. reward system between trying for more upgrades, but also giving equal chance of upgrades to OL.
  3. Allow integrated use of all 2E materials, and optional use of some 1E materials.
  4. Allow the option of "random" dungeons, that are not part of a written quest, but just set up on the spot.

My first thoughts are:

  1. Do not allow players to read the quest (if there is one).
  2. Do not reveal areas before players reach them.
  3. Introduce more ways of earning experience, treasure, and gold for the players, and experience and threat for the overlord.
  4. Allow shopping and upgrading during play.
  5. Determine some method for placing of initial monster groups and for overlord reinforcing and spawning of monster groups.

These rules would only be for random quests or for custom quests specifically designed to be played with the variant, because introducing these rules into official quests and campaigns would unbalance the game.

 

The quests I have in mind would be akin to 1E quests: large maps, high rewards, high difficulty. And would usually consist of one long "encounter", but could span more than one. The goal would be for the quests to be played in a single long session like 1E, and for there to be more emphasis on exploring and upgrading, while still taking advantage of the core gameplay of 2E.

 

The complete rules can be found at the link below. I have not play tested or considered balance issues. Any feedback would be appreciated. But remember these ideas are very rough and need a lot of work, and some of them may not even be workable.

 
I have removed the listing of rules from this thread because it was getting long, and arduous to update. I have uploaded the rules, as a thematically appropriate pdf to www.boardgamegeek.com. The most current version can be found here:
 
 
And can also be discussed on the BGG forums:
 

Edited by Madmartigan, 05 April 2014 - 10:44 AM.

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#2 Madmartigan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:28 AM

See above for the most current version of the rules.


Edited by Madmartigan, 25 March 2014 - 02:49 PM.

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#3 Madmartigan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:30 AM

For something truly epic, particularly on random quests, one could use 1E map tiles in addition to 2E map tiles, and use 1E stairs tokens for movement between them.


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#4 Beren Eoath

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:49 AM

This is an interesting approach. I thought of somethiong like this when converting quests from 1e into 2e.

You can find that disscusion here:

http://community.fan...ests-to-2nd-ed/

 

cheers

Beren



#5 Light Bright

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:25 PM

Sounds like the making of a better game at least. That looks more epic in my mind. Honestly there isn't really a reason to even play epic play with this game when we played it. It was campaign or different game. It was the short version of boredom rather then the long version. Actually I guess there is a reason to play so called epic play.

Edited by Light Bright, 19 March 2014 - 12:32 PM.


#6 Madmartigan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 05:49 PM

Yeah, single quests with the current rules just don't have the excitement of 1E. Hence the attempt to create some kind of variant.


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#7 Madmartigan

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 05:51 PM

If anyone can see anything that immediately needs changed, please post your suggestions. Also, if any groups want to play test these rules one night and give feedback that would be awesome.

 

I can see the heroes getting juicy upgrades at a good pace, what I am initially concerned about is that the overlord will not be able to keep pace.


Edited by Madmartigan, 19 March 2014 - 05:54 PM.

"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#8 Madmartigan

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:14 AM

Did some editing to the rules. Adding the use of glyphs and conquest tokens from 1E, and added the ability for the overlord to discard overlord cards to earn threat, and healing for the heroes at the shop.


Edited by Madmartigan, 25 March 2014 - 02:50 PM.

"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#9 Madmartigan

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:19 AM

This is an interesting approach. I thought of somethiong like this when converting quests from 1e into 2e.

You can find that disscusion here:

http://community.fan...ests-to-2nd-ed/

 

cheers

Beren

It seems like this variant could be used to play 1E quests, with a little tweaking.

 

I will playtest 1E quests as well, once our 2E campaign is finished.


Edited by Madmartigan, 25 March 2014 - 02:51 PM.

"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#10 ccj86

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 05:51 AM

Good rules. Please, keep updating it.

#11 Madmartigan

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 06:28 AM

Good rules. Please, keep updating it.

I do not know how good they are yet. But I intend to playtest them and update them until I feel they are solid. After that, maybe I will make a thematically appropriate pdf and upload them to BoardGameGeek.

 

Be patient for updates however, because my group only plays once or twice a month, and we are only half way through The Shadow Rune. So, it may be close to summer before we have a chance to playtest these rules. Like I said earlier though, if any of you have a group that wants to test these rules out once or more, and give some feedback, that would help a lot. And hopefully it would be fun as well.

 

Cheers.


"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#12 Madmartigan

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 06:58 PM

I added my thoughts on converting 1E quests to 2E using all of the above rules. And added further rules concerning relics.


Edited by Madmartigan, 22 March 2014 - 08:46 PM.

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#13 Madmartigan

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:36 PM

I have submitted version 1 of these rules to boardgamegeek.com to see if I can get some feedback from that user base. I did use the official rule book background and official fonts to make the pdf look thematically appropriate. We will see if it gets rejected because of that. If it does, I will re-submit it sans background.


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#14 Madmartigan

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:24 AM

Version 1 has been approved, and is available on BGG, here.

 

Let me know what you think.


Edited by Madmartigan, 24 March 2014 - 04:24 AM.

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#15 BigBadUnshaved

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 05:53 AM

Those are some very nice ideas Madmartigan you've put together. Great work, keep it up.

 

Like you, it will sadly take a long time before I'll be able to try them out. The one concern I have however is that with current proposal balance might have shifted a bit too much in overlord's favour. I'm refering to the matter of stand up actions and conquest tokens. I have no experience with 1E whatsoever and as such I might be speaking out of ignorance, but with the way reviving works it would all come down to taking out the squishiest hero over and over again after each time he stands up (since he/she'll revive without full health), burning conquest token pool avaible to the heroes quickly. Maybe with such approach a revived hero should come to back to game with full health?


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#16 Madmartigan

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 06:38 AM

Like you, it will sadly take a long time before I'll be able to try them out. The one concern I have however is that with current proposal balance might have shifted a bit too much in overlord's favour. I'm refering to the matter of stand up actions and conquest tokens. I have no experience with 1E whatsoever and as such I might be speaking out of ignorance, but with the way reviving works it would all come down to taking out the squishiest hero over and over again after each time he stands up (since he/she'll revive without full health), burning conquest token pool avaible to the heroes quickly. Maybe with such approach a revived hero should come to back to game with full health?

This is an important point. In 1E the difficulty was intentionally stacked in the overlord's favor, and the conquest system meant that stronger heroes did have to actively protect those that were weaker in direct combat. So, bringing back conquest tokens as a kind of "lives" system is meant to recapture this bit of strategy and difficulty. Now, it remains to be seen if the current version is TOO stacked toward the overlord, and if upping the number of conquest tokens to say two per hero, or like you said, some modification to the state of revived heroes, is needed.

 

Great question, thanks for posting.


"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#17 BigBadUnshaved

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 07:01 AM

I can see where you're coming from with this. It's true that KO heroes in 2E has a bit too light consequences. My concern was because it might easily couse a very 'unfun' situation when one hero falls during an encounter. The best strategy option is to let him lie untill danger passes, otherwise he'll be (probably) one shotted and cost the group very important and expensive resource that conquest tokens are. but that has to wait till playtesting.

 

There is another change that would be needed if you wish to recapture the bit of strategy that comes with protecting squisher party members. That is, LoS and movement. As it is now it's so silly at times - the one I can't grasp and accept is that when you line up a figure, obstacle and another figure in a diagonal pattern, those two figures are in line of sight despite the obstacle right between them. Or how you can squeeze between a figure and wall corner.

 

It's probably because most of 2E quests are all pretty much a 'race' and allowing creating blocades easily could impact gameplay too significantly. However, with this delving play mode it would be no longer needed and as such, very welcome if you wish to act more strategy and tactics into the quests.



#18 Madmartigan

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 08:09 AM

There is another change that would be needed if you wish to recapture the bit of strategy that comes with protecting squisher party members. That is, LoS and movement. As it is now it's so silly at times - the one I can't grasp and accept is that when you line up a figure, obstacle and another figure in a diagonal pattern, those two figures are in line of sight despite the obstacle right between them. Or how you can squeeze between a figure and wall corner.

 

It's probably because most of 2E quests are all pretty much a 'race' and allowing creating blocades easily could impact gameplay too significantly. However, with this delving play mode it would be no longer needed and as such, very welcome if you wish to act more strategy and tactics into the quests.

I understand what you are saying about the LoS and movement around corners rules in the game. However, as of now I am not intending to make any changes to the tactical combat rules of 2E (LoS, movement, etc.), which, quirks notwithstanding, are in my view pretty well balanced. My intention is to create a play style variant to open up more quest possibilities, while leaving the tactical combat rules intact.

 

That said. If you or anyone else wants to develop a tactical combat patch that is compatible with my set of variant quest rules, that sounds like a cool idea.


"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#19 griton

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 10:00 AM

There is another change that would be needed if you wish to recapture the bit of strategy that comes with protecting squisher party members. That is, LoS and movement. As it is now it's so silly at times - the one I can't grasp and accept is that when you line up a figure, obstacle and another figure in a diagonal pattern, those two figures are in line of sight despite the obstacle right between them. Or how you can squeeze between a figure and wall corner.

 

It's probably because most of 2E quests are all pretty much a 'race' and allowing creating blocades easily could impact gameplay too significantly. However, with this delving play mode it would be no longer needed and as such, very welcome if you wish to act more strategy and tactics into the quests.

 

It's also probably due in large part to the fact that the maps are smaller and and more crowded than they were in 1E. Also remember than things like Range and LoS are a simplified model (the same way that dice are a model for attacks and defense). Most of the LoS rules I can manage, it's the errata that doesn't allow LoS across the thin borders between tiles, but does for those farther back away from it. 



#20 Madmartigan

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:02 PM

Version 1.1 of the rules can be found on BGG. I have cleaned up some of the language and formatting, and I have added more ways in which the heroes can earn conquest tokens.

 

And I have added a discussion thread on the BGG forums.

 

Legendary Play Variant Rules - www.boardgamegeek.com - forums discussion


Edited by Madmartigan, 26 March 2014 - 02:29 PM.

"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."





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