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Tome of Chaos Undivided


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#41 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:22 AM

There are Chaos Ogryn in Deathwatch.



#42 Fgdsfg

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:01 AM

There are Chaos Ogryn in Deathwatch.

Not that it makes a big difference for Black Crusade.

But what Deathwatch book are they in?

I'd love to see Black Crusade rules for Ogryns, Ratlings, Squats and other abhumans. It should be fairly easy, considering that Black Crusade already has a modular approach, where you actually choose Race before Archetype.

It's even a bit strange that it is modular like that, considering that Humans can only choose Human Archetypes, and CSM can only choose CSM Archetypes. If they never intended to add more Races, why weren't the Human/CSM aspects simply baked into the Archetypes themselves to begin with?

Edited by Fgdsfg, 15 April 2014 - 02:05 AM.

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#43 Tenebrae

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:38 AM

It's even a bit strange that it is modular like that, considering that Humans can only choose Human Archetypes, and CSM can only choose CSM Archetypes. If they never intended to add more Races, why weren't the Human/CSM aspects simply baked into the Archetypes themselves to begin with?

Freedom of design for any later decissions?

Modular design makes sense.


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#44 Wincent

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:39 AM

 

Is he actually retconned out of the fluff, or has he just not been mentioned for years? There's a pretty big difference between the two, when it comes to 40k fluff. The squats, for example, were never retconned, afaik. They just suffered a near-wipe-out as part of a retcon event and were then never mentioned. They still existed, and always have.

 

 

IIRC guy who ownes rights for Malal quit his adventure with GW along with those rights.

Guess GWs lawyers were just Rank 2 back then.



#45 Fgdsfg

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:02 PM

It's even a bit strange that it is modular like that, considering that Humans can only choose Human Archetypes, and CSM can only choose CSM Archetypes. If they never intended to add more Races, why weren't the Human/CSM aspects simply baked into the Archetypes themselves to begin with?

Freedom of design for any later decissions?
Modular design makes sense.

Of course it does. Which is why it's so odd.

Is he actually retconned out of the fluff, or has he just not been mentioned for years? There's a pretty big difference between the two, when it comes to 40k fluff. The squats, for example, were never retconned, afaik. They just suffered a near-wipe-out as part of a retcon event and were then never mentioned. They still existed, and always have.

 
IIRC guy who ownes rights for Malal quit his adventure with GW along with those rights.
Guess GWs lawyers were just Rank 2 back then.

That's how I have come to understand it too. Malal hasn't actually been removed or retconned, he's just gone unmentioned.

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#46 Bellevue

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:27 AM

I would like to see partial alignment rules.

 

My character is unaligned, because although she has bought mostly Tzeentch-aligned advances, she also has a lot of Slaanesh-aligned advances. She has very few Nurgle or Khorne advances.

 

Tzeentch and Slaanesh are allies, surely this ought to do something even if it's a token gesture. Maybe, for example, only one of their infamy bonuses and both infamy drawbacks (Page 305 core)



#47 Ravenstormchaser

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:15 PM

Right out of the door. MORE EQUIPMENT. Where the heck are my plague sprayers? More then one single option for style of most of the weapons would be nice as well. Some stats for new SM gear so that you can have it around for players to hunt down or try and steal. Vehicles. Few more Cybernetics would be nice as well.

 

I mean we are playing Chaos characters where they mention Warpsmiths and Hereteks making new weapons, modding equipment in new and diverse ways and yet we dont have more then a few new style weapons that are thematic to a God. Some kind of upgrade/modiffy rules for weapons other then the legacy/deamon ones would be nice.


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#48 Rapier

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:05 PM

I feel we should wait and see what tome of decay gives us before knowing exactly what this book could offer.

I would like more bionics (but I could see that fitting into the nurlge book). I want every chapter of chaos space marines to have rules, (we have 6 now, Tome of decay is meant to have 3 csm archetypes which would be 9 - but one is apparently long war vetaran, which applies to all of them!).

 

I would like rules for taking bionics instead of mutations.

I definitely think more mutations and more gifts of the gods are needed, more gear too.

I don't think we'll be getting anything after tome of decay at all though.



#49 Routa-maa

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:29 PM

@Rapier

 

Tome of Decay Announced

 

Here's a link for you. About halfway  on that page we start to talk about what Tome of Decay contained.

 

They haven't got the book to England I see if you haven't got you hands on it.


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#50 Rapier

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 06:41 PM

@Rapier

 

Tome of Decay Announced

 

Here's a link for you. About halfway  on that page we start to talk about what Tome of Decay contained.

 

They haven't got the book to England I see if you haven't got you hands on it.

 

So which CSM chapter is left out? :P That#s what I want in the next book.



#51 Andkat

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:12 PM

Technically speaking neither the Word Bearers nor the Iron Warriors have one (Dark Apostle and War(p)smith were originally exclusive to the two, but they are now just thematic/characteristic of them and technically generic), but the corresponding classes still have a strong aesthetic/conceptual association with them. The Black Legion also formally does not, but Veteran of the Long War is as Black Legion as you get (you get to pick an Alignment if you want one and then pick a piece of equipment and special ability from any other Space Marine class of your choice that shares that alignment or lack thereof, which is thematically pretty representative of the Black Legion). Thus, in terms of having a suitably themed/characteristic advanced class, every Legion can be said to be accounted for, and given that Veteran of the Long War covers the generic non-specific CSM/Black Legion advanced type and Tome of Decay also covers the quite general areas of Possessed, Black Crusades, and Daemon Princes (i.e. high level Black Crusade RPG) I have a hard time believing we'll get another expansion sourcebook.

 

I mean there are technically renegade Chapters like the Red Corsairs left, but that's about it. I guess also the Fallen of the Dark Angels, I rather dislike the Heresy novels and have no idea what their current status is (whether they are actually supposed to be Chaos Space Marines or not) in the most recent backstory. I feel like there isn't much territory left to cover as far as distinctive Chaos Space Marine advanced archetypes go, however.


Edited by Andkat, 26 July 2014 - 10:25 PM.


#52 Terraneaux

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 12:00 AM

I'd like to see the crafting (and drug) rules re-done so they're actually usable in the system, but FF is unlikely to hire someone to do basic system-level work given the freelancer basis their writers work on.  

 

Plus they need much better proofreading/editing.  The lack of a cohesive vision for the line (by that I mean all of the 40k rpgs) is obvious.  It's not as bad as, say, 2e Exalted, but it's close.  


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#53 Tenebrae

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 01:43 AM

Plus they need much better proofreading/editing.  The lack of a cohesive vision for the line (by that I mean all of the 40k rpgs) is obvious.  It's not as bad as, say, 2e Exalted, but it's close.  

GMing both, I find it worse than E2, but your milage may vary.


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#54 Terraneaux

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 11:36 PM

My view might be influenced by the idea that, even shoddily proofread, the 40k rpg system is infinitely more playable than Exalted 2e. Combat doesn't take 3 hours, for example.



#55 Tenebrae

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 05:18 AM

My view might be influenced by the idea that, even shoddily proofread, the 40k rpg system is infinitely more playable than Exalted 2e. Combat doesn't take 3 hours, for example.

And my experience is the opposite - E2 combat doesn't need to take 2 hours. But as mentioned, Mileage may vary.



#56 Ravenstormchaser

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 10:23 AM

Here is an idea that would be nice for BC. Frikan compile some of the Deathwatch material for equipment, cybernetics, weapons and the damn RT rules for the same and ship ownership and put some basic acquisition rules for said items into a book. I mean yeah its all well and good if your dm is willing to just hand you a ship when your group needs to get from A to B but sometimes it would be nice to have the crunch to back up this info. And the lack of a single call box that either says "RT aquisition rules/prices are the same/not the same as those in BC. Dms should do X if players want Y from RT books."  is glaring as a DM who has both systems. Finding gear thats in RT but for some reasion, that dosn't make thematic sense, isnt in BC just becomes a pain in the ass during characer creation some times.

 

A sinmple Web-Extra with conversion rules for items in each RT book to BC or from DW to BC i would pay 5$ for just so I can hand it to a player and say here stop whining about lack of interesting options for weapons/gear already.

 

Or the number of times a TT players in one of my games asks "So how much for a cyclone missle launcher for Termy plate? What? What do you mean we can't have them as CSM? WTF not? Its not like someone cant steal it off a dead LSM!" and such other statements when they go looking for things that the BC book conspiciously fails to mention. AT. ALL.

 

As far as im concerned anything that a heretek could consevably salvage from a fallen LSM or Imp Guard/RT should be something that should be listed SOMEWHERE. I mean sure add a "Salvaged tech quirks" Table or something and a "Salvaging Tech Results" table to balance it out but comeon there should atleast be a mention of doing so in the books.

 

...I'm gona stop ranting now. <.<



#57 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:11 AM

Well, that's the point; if you want classical Loyalist wargear out of a Deathwatch book, the easy answer to your players is that it's not something to acquire via infamy tests - go murder some space marines and steal it!

 

(On a related note, this gives the players a chance to experience the task of trying to kill a loyalist terminator-armoured veteran squad that they dismiss so lightly*)

 

As to why they don't normally have them - you'll note chaos terminators in the TT game don't have them either because (for whatever reason) it's not something the dark mechanicus produce; at the time most of those magi went traitor, they didn't exist (much like the assault cannon) and they've kept producing what they know, instead (such as the reaper autocannon) or what they've developed themselves (like the ectoplasma cannon).

 

Getting hold of the gun probably isn't that hard in the grand scheme of things, but an acquisition in Rogue Trader or Black Crusade is assumed to include a steady supply of spares and basic ammunition, and those things will be hard to get hold of.

 

Also, in the specific case of a cyclone launcher - the terminator plate would need to be adapted to carry it: Contemporary Loyalist Indomitus-pattern terminator armour is designed with it in mind. The Cataphracti-pattern and other older marks of terminator armour that you're likely to find in the vortex won't be. A magos could adapt it for carrying the weapon, but modifying terminator plate is neither a cheap nor a quick task.

 

 

 

Any item or service from Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy or Only War that has a rarity value of abundant through to unique can slot straight into the Black Crusade acquisition system. If you want xenotech weapons, dark heresy wargear, guard dress uniforms, etc, then go right ahead and use items from those rulebooks.

 

Note that if you are using infamy to acquire items from Imperial Space you suffer a penalty, so it's probably not worth it to acquire a Lathe-forged bolt gun rather than a Hollows-forged one, but if you want something unique like a Lathe-blade, or Combat drugs from Iocathos, it might be worth the effort.

 

As to ships, I'm pretty sure that 'the services of a cruiser-class ship' is one of the acquisition examples in black crusade. Low and high passage around Imperial Space is in the Inquisitor's handbook and can be adapted across as above.

 

 

 

* I will warn you that a squad of five Storm Wardens Terminators will turn most heretic warbands to paste without breaking a sweat. If they say they want to try this make sure they really, really mean it.


Edited by Magnus Grendel, 29 July 2014 - 02:13 AM.


#58 Korrh

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:16 AM

I would totally buy all the supplements for BC with more wargear, remade ship combat/actions/acquisitions etc. Non-class based (generic) ship actions are pretty boring in RT. Adding more Navigator-like powers for ship combat for psykers, or adding extra functionality to the existing ones, would make sense. FFG please add more cool stuff. How about psyker summoning a void kraken during the battle?
May be it's a good time to write our friend Tim an email and show some interest in that. What do you think guys?



#59 Andkat

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:25 PM

Given that a significant number of Space Marines have turned Renegade since the Heresy, it's actually quite implausible that there wouldn't be reserves of Assault Cannons and other post-Heresy Space Marine wargear in Traitor hands and/or that they wouldn't have been reverse-engineered or duplicated by at least one renegade Mechanicus Magos or group somewhere in the realms touched by Chaos. Whether the Screaming Vortex in particular (or wherever else you have set your campaign) is a refuge for the former or the latter is another question entirely.

 

I also wouldn't treat most of the gear from Dark Heresy etc. as necessarily having any penalty to acquisition from being from 'Imperial Space'. Many individual items could be expected to have their local analogues elsewhere in the Galaxy wherever sufficient industrial activity and technological creativity are present (i.e., the massive list of solid projectile weapon variants in Dark Heresy Inquisitor's Handbook, things like the Warp Blade from the Dark Heresy Radical's Handbook that would be a pretty flavorful and appropriate implement for any sufficiently sophisticated Dark Mechanicus faction, and so on and so forth). Additionally, there's quite a bit in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader that isn't actually manufactured by the Imperium (or is otherwise illegal or remote) so I don't really see why there would be any special penalty to the acquisition of many of the items introduced only in RT/DH when considered in a Black Crusade context. What should be looked at is whether the availability provided by the source made any sense at all to begin with, which is not always the case. As someone who has never played in a campaign using any of the official FFG settings (Koronus Expanse, Screaming Vortex, etc.) I've never seen a reason to fret too much over the particulars of the geographic origin of some item or other element (just redefine them in context of wherever your campaign is set).


Edited by Andkat, 29 July 2014 - 12:30 PM.


#60 Rapier

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:52 AM

So now that I've read tome of Decay.

More Bionics

More mutations

More gifts for the gods.

more unusual gear (like the banners and totems) but not more weapons because we have no need of that.

I can't see it happening though, because really there isn't anything necessary - expanded tables would be nice, but that's more or less all we need.

I expect that to expand BC now, you will just have to buy other product lines to get the other items and new traits and talents.

Which would cover anything except mutations and gifts - at this point I'm hoping they convert 2nd edition tome of corruption for WFRPG into a pdf that matches BC and will be surprised if we even get that :P


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