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A Difficult Decision


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#21 2P51

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:07 AM

A lightsaber is an entirely different animal I still think.  I don't think it's a weapon for non Jedi at all.  It's all edge, and you can't even bump yourself with the blade at all, or you new name is Lefty..............


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#22 aramis

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:31 AM

I've trained in beginning kendo, SCA Heavy, and extensively in SCA practical rapier. One of the rapier simulators is made by duck-taping 3 fishing poles together. (It's fairly safe to work with, but it's way too light.) The problem with moving to a lighter blade is overrotation of attacks. It's actually safer to go to the lighter blade than to a heavier one ... the heavier one, you forget the inherent limitations  of the heavier blade. All the stupid self hitting I've seen was in SCA Heavy and in Kenjutsu - someone trained in a 1h sword (Katana or broadsword) moving to a 2-hand sword - and usually hitting their own head.

 

For practical purposes, the lightsaber is best simulated by a cheap fiberglass fishing rod with a chunk of steel pipe over the handle. And yes, we've done that. It's odd, but the skilled swordsman isn't going to be losing limbs - and only a careless novice, either. But the furniture is at far greater risk!


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#23 2P51

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:44 AM

Yes but everyone starts out as a careless novice, that's kind of my point.  No one ever doesn't bump themselves once in awhile.  I'm not talking hard enough to even inflict an injury with an edged weapon, I mean just tap themselves.  That doesn't happen with Lightsabers without inflicting vicious injuries.  I just feel like a Jedi needs to learn some extended Force awareness skills before they pick up and begin wielding a Lightsaber or the Jedi order would be a cybernetic prosthesis convention.


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#24 HappyDaze

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 11:03 AM

Yes but everyone starts out as a careless novice, that's kind of my point.  No one ever doesn't bump themselves once in awhile.  I'm not talking hard enough to even inflict an injury with an edged weapon, I mean just tap themselves.  That doesn't happen with Lightsabers without inflicting vicious injuries.  I just feel like a Jedi needs to learn some extended Force awareness skills before they pick up and begin wielding a Lightsaber or the Jedi order would be a cybernetic prosthesis convention.

In the EU, some lightsabers had the option of a reduced power 'training mode' setting. This would allow for training accidents (or successful contact with the opponent) that only leave stinging burns behind (which is still effective for learning) rather than grievous injuries.


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#25 Greymere

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:10 AM

Personally I hope Force and Destiny limits the Lightsaber skill for both building and wielding to a Specialization Talent or Force Power Tree.

 

Also keep in mind Lightsabers were primarily used for defensive purposes by Jedi to deflect and redirect attacks as well.



#26 2P51

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:15 AM

Personally I hope Force and Destiny limits the Lightsaber skill for both building and wielding to a Specialization Talent or Force Power Tree.

 

Also keep in mind Lightsabers were primarily used for defensive purposes by Jedi to deflect and redirect attacks as well.

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#27 Greymere

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:27 AM

I didn't say they weren't used offensively, just that their primary use was for Defense, even when Obi Wan was originally instructing Luke on its use it was a Defensive exercise, their really is no sword fighting equivalent to using your sword to deflect bolts, let alone deflect them away from harming allies or back on the firing individual.  Meaning Lightsaber combat often involves holding your blade in positions and angles that serve no defensive purpose in a Melee skill analog.



#28 2P51

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:29 AM

I think they're used like a laser sword that can deflect blaster bolts and chop people in two.  I wouldn't primarily characterize it any other way.


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#29 aramis

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 01:03 PM

I didn't say they weren't used offensively, just that their primary use was for Defense, even when Obi Wan was originally instructing Luke on its use it was a Defensive exercise, their really is no sword fighting equivalent to using your sword to deflect bolts, let alone deflect them away from harming allies or back on the firing individual.  Meaning Lightsaber combat often involves holding your blade in positions and angles that serve no defensive purpose in a Melee skill analog.

Yes there is - japanese "Arrow Cutting" was a (desperation) technique for using katana or dai-tō to thump incoming arrows. It's ben shown to be barely plausible by Mythbusters, but they don't have access to medieval japanese swordsmen.



#30 copperbell

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 05:46 AM

 

I didn't say they weren't used offensively, just that their primary use was for Defense, even when Obi Wan was originally instructing Luke on its use it was a Defensive exercise, their really is no sword fighting equivalent to using your sword to deflect bolts, let alone deflect them away from harming allies or back on the firing individual.  Meaning Lightsaber combat often involves holding your blade in positions and angles that serve no defensive purpose in a Melee skill analog.

Yes there is - japanese "Arrow Cutting" was a (desperation) technique for using katana or dai-tō to thump incoming arrows. It's ben shown to be barely plausible by Mythbusters, but they don't have access to medieval japanese swordsmen.

 

And fortunately there's no medieval japanese swordsmen with access to them or they'll need to employ new cast members! ;)

 

So do you think Lightsaber Combat Form Talent Trees will be available in Force & Destiny?



#31 2P51

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:39 AM

 

So do you think Lightsaber Combat Form Talent Trees will be available in Force & Destiny?

 

If you are referring to some of the EU stuff, maybe.  I think Lightsaber skill is definitely going to be handled differently than other combat skills.  I don't know if you'll see some of these names for various styles as in the EU, but I would expect a tree or two for enhancing Lightsaber usage much akin to the Force power trees.


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#32 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

 

 

So do you think Lightsaber Combat Form Talent Trees will be available in Force & Destiny?

 

If you are referring to some of the EU stuff, maybe.  I think Lightsaber skill is definitely going to be handled differently than other combat skills.  I don't know if you'll see some of these names for various styles as in the EU, but I would expect a tree or two for enhancing Lightsaber usage much akin to the Force power trees.

 

Actually, using the Force to enhance prowess with a lightsaber exists.  It's called the Row 5 Control Upgrade on the left-hand side of the Sense Power, which lets the Force-user upgrade a combat check by two (normally one, but since one needs to purchase the Strength Upgrade to unlock that Control Upgrade).  There's also Enhance with its Control Upgrades to increase the user's Brawn or Agility Characteristic (or both if they're willing to devote two Force Dice) by one.  All F&D needs to do on that front is just reprint those two powers (which is likely anyway since it's intended to be a self-contained rulebook much as EotE and AoR are).

 

Anything else to do with increased lightsaber prowess (such as increasing damage or negating setback dice) would be in the realm of talents, and same could be done with blaster deflection without that much difficulty.  Awayputyrwpn and I have handled blaster deflection as a talent for quite some time, and it generally works pretty well.


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#33 aramis

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 04:11 PM

 

 

I didn't say they weren't used offensively, just that their primary use was for Defense, even when Obi Wan was originally instructing Luke on its use it was a Defensive exercise, their really is no sword fighting equivalent to using your sword to deflect bolts, let alone deflect them away from harming allies or back on the firing individual.  Meaning Lightsaber combat often involves holding your blade in positions and angles that serve no defensive purpose in a Melee skill analog.

Yes there is - japanese "Arrow Cutting" was a (desperation) technique for using katana or dai-tō to thump incoming arrows. It's ben shown to be barely plausible by Mythbusters, but they don't have access to medieval japanese swordsmen.

 

And fortunately there's no medieval japanese swordsmen with access to them or they'll need to employ new cast members! ;)

 

So do you think Lightsaber Combat Form Talent Trees will be available in Force & Destiny?

 

I hope so.



#34 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:09 AM

I actually hope we don't see the Lightsaber Forms in the core rulebook.

 

The FFG design team have made it pretty clear that the focus of their trilogy of core rulebooks is on the Rebellion Era, and during that time a whole lot of Jedi lore had been lost.  So Jedi in this era should be "making do" as they no longer have reliable access to the thousands of years of lore that Jedi trained prior to the events of RotS took for granted.

 

Given their popularity, I figure we'll see the Lightsaber Forms addressed in a post-CRB supplement, quite possibly as Signature Abilities for the Jedi career (or careers).  Personally though, instead of seeing such a Signature Ability for each separate Form, I think it'd work better with the narrative feel of the system that they instead use the Balanced/Fast/Strong lightsaber styles that was introduced in the Jedi Knight series of games, perhaps with a note as to which of the "classic" Lightsaber Forms is reflected by a particular Signature Ability.

 

To draw from DarthGM's Edge of the Jedi fan supplement, I'd picture the breakdown being something like this:

 

Balanced Style - Shii-Cho (Form I) and Niman (Form VI)

Fast Style - Ataru (Form IV) and Soresu (Form III)

Strong Style - Djem So/Shien (Form V) and Juyo (Form VII)

 

Makashi (Form II) could be argued as either a Balanced or a Fast style, and there's also the matter of Jar'kai (dual-wielding) which is an off-shoot of Niman.  Trakata is more of a technique than an actual Form, and could instead be a talent used by the Jedi specializations, although the same too could be said of Jar'kai.


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#35 Desslok

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:58 AM

 

I would think a Lightsaber would be extremely difficult and dangerous to use.  You're basically waving no weight around, so there is little to 'feel' and judge positioning with.  You certainly don't want that sucker touching you at all, so being as aware of the position of your own weapon in relation to yourself, as well as your enemy's, would be both paramount and quite difficult.

WE actually did this in our game group to prove a point...using a Pice of 8"PVC as the Jedi LS haft

3 players.. tried...

Lopped off two arms and bisected one...

 

 

Hell, even with a "blade", heads would be flying off! I got one of the awesome Master Replica Maul lightsabers, screwed the two ends together and started swinging like I was Fat Star Wars Kid - two swings into it, I whacked myself in the head but good with one end. Had that been a real lighsaber blade? My head would have been on the floor. A handful of swings later - assuming I survived the decapitation, that is - I destroyed a lamp.

 

So yes, lightsabers are DANGEROUS weapons!


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#36 Daeglan

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:18 AM

You know... lack of mass does not make it harder to use a weapon. Being trained in sword use that is not how you judge blade position. When you are trained to use a sword you judge blade position by your hand position. Not the weight of the blade. I can pick up a foil, rapier, broad sword and know where the blade is on all of them equally well. training blades would be used to learn the hand positions not to learn to judge the weight.


Edited by Daeglan, 20 March 2014 - 01:19 AM.

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#37 Daeglan

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:51 AM

 

 

I would think a Lightsaber would be extremely difficult and dangerous to use.  You're basically waving no weight around, so there is little to 'feel' and judge positioning with.  You certainly don't want that sucker touching you at all, so being as aware of the position of your own weapon in relation to yourself, as well as your enemy's, would be both paramount and quite difficult.

WE actually did this in our game group to prove a point...using a Pice of 8"PVC as the Jedi LS haft

3 players.. tried...

Lopped off two arms and bisected one...

 

 

Hell, even with a "blade", heads would be flying off! I got one of the awesome Master Replica Maul lightsabers, screwed the two ends together and started swinging like I was Fat Star Wars Kid - two swings into it, I whacked myself in the head but good with one end. Had that been a real lighsaber blade? My head would have been on the floor. A handful of swings later - assuming I survived the decapitation, that is - I destroyed a lamp.

 

So yes, lightsabers are DANGEROUS weapons!

 

because you weren't trained in sword use. not because lightsabers lack blade mass. They would be more dangerous yes. But it is not the lack of mass that is the problem. It is the completely unforgiving because it cuts through everything with little effort. I tend to glance off of other objects. But not myself. 



#38 Kyla

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 10:09 AM

because you weren't trained in sword use. not because lightsabers lack blade mass. They would be more dangerous yes. But it is not the lack of mass that is the problem. It is the completely unforgiving because it cuts through everything with little effort. I tend to glance off of other objects. But not myself. 

Not to continue the tangent (okay, I am continuing the tangent), but there's two aspects to the Lightstaber skill, the important one is accuracy of attacks.  So far, no rules have handled hurting yourself with a lightsaber, that's not why the Lightsaber skill is really important - it's the fact that being accurate with a Lightsaber is incredibly difficult when you aren't used to the characteristics of the weapon.

 

Some background; I was an SCA swordfighter specializing in scorpion-style Flourentine from 1991 to 2004, I've studied Kendo from 1990 to 2009, Escrima from 1997 to today, and was a tournament Fencer from 1989 through college (it was my "gateway-drug").  I became caught up in Amtgard from 2004 through 2010, and converted that into a Star Wars LARP in 2011.

 

I can say that moving amongst all those different styles and weapons creates an awareness of "flight characteristics" of the different blades, curvatures, and weights.  All of these things change your approach style, swing patterns, and aiming points - to the point that even weapons within the same family react differently based on stylistic choices of their pommels and crossguards.  These things require a significant amount of training to adapt to, and while blade-safety is consistent, the Lightsaber skill doesn't cover the defense against damaging yourself, it covers your ability to put the blade on target.

 

When I built my first lightsaber (by which I mean using a graphite golf-club shaft and padding along with a the Obi-Wan Kenobi hilt from a retractable lightsaber for Amtgard) I found that I had to consciously adjust my target point and re-learn when to start my swing and how to approach my target.  I found it more like throwing a punch than swinging a sword necessarily, because of the reaction time of the weapon.  It's a noticeable change.

 

The inherent lack of a skill to cover a lightsaber's use I feel is best represented in the fact that you will only ever be pulling Greens to hit with.  Let's face it, Han didn't fear cutting off his own hand when he was cutting open the Tauntaun, and I doubt very much that he had a skill applicable to using a Lightsaber (if his staff work was any indication in RotJ I'd say he was sans Melee).  But anyone when faced with using a lightsaber on straight greens or using a lesser base damage weapon would probably go with a better die pool and a lower damage weapon for the chance at crits.


Edited by Kyla, 20 March 2014 - 10:10 AM.

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#39 Kshatriya

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:42 PM

 

 

Also keep in mind Lightsabers were primarily used for defensive purposes by Jedi to deflect and redirect attacks as well.

Post-Ruusan Reformation maybe :P

 

And the lightsaber in its modern form was actually developed by the Sith, so. 

 

 

 

 So far, no rules have handled hurting yourself with a lightsaber

 

Special rules aren't really needed, though they could be helpful. Untrained lightsaber use could certainly be represented with a difficulty upgrade in combat (not how Han used it, obviously) and/or Setbacks. Enough Threat or certainly a Despair justifies cutting off something of yourself.


Edited by Kshatriya, 20 March 2014 - 04:44 PM.

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#40 aramis

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:34 PM

I must concur: You will not likely hurt yourself with a lightsaber untrained if you have melee skill... but won't be getting crits.

SCA heavies don't Mis-handle foils,et but also don't put Shots on target often.




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