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What species should I exclude from the first game?


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#1 Alanthemoderate

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:31 PM

Ok, I ordered both expansions and I am starting a little gaming group of four people. For our first game I was planning to remove the Nekro Virus, Clans of Saar, and Arboric from the game because of the way they really change the game rules up, then also the Embers of Muuat for their crummy starting units (Other than the warsun)

What do you more tailiented people think? Those who have had more experience than one half finished game at a convention



#2 Steve-O

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:09 PM

If you're worried about races, just stick to the core ones for your first play through. In fact, I'd be inclined to say just leave the expansions in their boxes for the first play. Races aside, there are enough rules to learn in the base game without bringing the expansion into it right off the bat.


If you're only four people, you'll only be using a small fraction of the races anyway, and most of them are not really problematic. If you stick to core races, maybe just leave out the Yssaril.

Edited by Steve-O, 11 March 2014 - 08:10 PM.


#3 Alanthemoderate

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:35 PM

Thakns for the advice, I apriciate it, but I really like the idea of the exansions, though I might just grab the flagships and racial tech (It is how I played my first game) because I like how diffrent they make the species feel.

I might just take your advice, thank you for it :)



#4 adamwehn

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:51 AM

Thakns for the advice, I apriciate it, but I really like the idea of the exansions, though I might just grab the flagships and racial tech (It is how I played my first game) because I like how diffrent they make the species feel.

I might just take your advice, thank you for it :)

 

I would suggest not using the core game or any optional rules at all, instead use the scenario game from Shards.  It eliminates most of the overly complex parts of the game and focuses almost exclusively on the core mechanics of the game and the flow through the phases.



#5 Alanthemoderate

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 05:19 PM

 

Thakns for the advice, I apriciate it, but I really like the idea of the exansions, though I might just grab the flagships and racial tech (It is how I played my first game) because I like how diffrent they make the species feel.

I might just take your advice, thank you for it :)

 

I would suggest not using the core game or any optional rules at all, instead use the scenario game from Shards.  It eliminates most of the overly complex parts of the game and focuses almost exclusively on the core mechanics of the game and the flow through the phases.

 

Sadly, I saw the post on this forum about this too late, my players are too excited about the normal game for me to take it away at this point

Becides, me and another one of the players both learned the rules in half a game at Dun Dra Con, and it was really fun. I played the Ghosts but came in last. She played the Hylar and came in second



#6 Wick

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:50 PM

Off topic but why do you and some others claim Embers of Muuat have crummy starting units?  So they don't have two transports and a couple of cruisers. Instead they have an entire fleet ready to go in one ship. Some races have to build units first to make a decent starting fleet. Take tech strat card first thing and by round 2 you can get deep space cannons to make it move 2 which is about the same number of steps to XRD transports for some races anyways.  Most races start with a movement 1 transport, a couple of ground troops, and 1-2 warships the Embers have that and more in one ship. There are also races like the Jol-Nar who have a worthless starting fleet and there are others like the Yssaril who have a superb starting fleet, Embers is not like either of these but I would say it has an above average fleet. 

 

Remember, the Warsun is a transport and dreadnought in one ship only much much better.



#7 Steve-O

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 08:08 PM

Off topic but why do you and some others claim Embers of Muuat have crummy starting units?  So they don't have two transports and a couple of cruisers. Instead they have an entire fleet ready to go in one ship.



It's precisely the fact that they only have one (real) ship that makes their starting fleet less than ideal. All of their proverbial eggs are in one basket.

This means that:
a) they have to leave their home system completely undefended if they want to move out and explore without taking turns to build first.
b) if anything bad happens to that war sun, they have nothing left. (If you play with DS, this can really suck, but even without DS the risks are not negligible.)
c) everybody sees Muaat as a threat from square one (because they start with a war sun OMG@!), so Muaat more than anybody else needs to build some kind of supporting fleet or face early elimination (for all practical purposes) by the rest of the players who are scared they'll come knocking with their one big fat ship.  Of course, if Muaat does get off to a good start building more ships, that pretty much invariably looks like warmongering to everyone else.  Don't bother explaining that you just want to be able to spread your wings a bit; that's exactly what a warmonger would say while he builds up his unstoppable invasion force.

 

By the numbers their fleet isn't that bad, but the fact that everything they need at the start of the game is rolled into one ship changes the strategy in significant ways.  Other races can split their starting forces if they need to.  Muaat wants to expand to a neighbouring system?  He needs to send out his primary warship as a transport.  Muaat wants to protect himself from an encroaching opponent?  He has to put his plans for expansion on hold.  Muaat gets one real action per round, until he can scrounge together some more ships.

 

Other races also don't generally look so scary on the board in turn one.


Edited by Steve-O, 18 March 2014 - 08:12 PM.


#8 Wick

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:28 PM

Good points.

 

I have yet to play with more than 2 other players, so it takes an aggressive player and maybe inconvenient wormholes to get players into contact by turn 2 or 3 and it is usually at the periphery of their controlled space not near their home system.   I can see easily getting another fleet up and running with the 5 resources at their home world during the1st round  ( say a transport, 2 fighters, and 2 GF or more if using production SC primary) unless they can't get the tech card and instead take trade SC in order to get enough Resources to buy secondary technology ability rather than expand their fleet.  If I played the Embers I would have my secondary fleet join up with my warsun by round 3 after expanding to a few systems or even sooner if needed.

 

I am not sure who will risk fighting a warsun with their starting fleet, but then again some may feel a kamikaze run against the warsun is well worth it to knock out the Ember's advantage early. I doubt the attacker will have much of a fleet remaining. To have a reasonable chance you need to try to cause 2 casualties to the warsun and say 2 more to kill his fighters, some starting fleets may be able to manage to kill a warsun and fighter escort in 1 to 2 turns but it would be a pyric victory if the dice are fair. 



#9 Shadow

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 03:05 PM

When a Warsun is at your border, the threatened player cannot move ships out of his home system or best double system to expand, so he must attack the Warsun with everything he has. 

 

Besides, where do you think that Warsun is going?  No one believes Muaat is going to spend counters to move that Warsun to a place that is non threatening.  That Warsun is going to attack that player eventually.



#10 Alanthemoderate

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 06:46 PM

I see the all eggs in one basket problem for the Muaat having the warsun doing everything. Two lucky rolls by the Mentak and it is dead without return fire, and the Muaat are basically out of the game, or one really unlucky token that makes a supernova. I am trying to start a regular thing with my group, so I don't want one to be really sad about losing on the second turn or so, and having to watch and not play (We are highschoolers, and not all of us have our own cars) for many many hours.

 

Also, perhaps one fo you could answer me, should a Final Fronteer token be placed on the Creuss on board homeworld tile? It says  "in each system that does not contain any planets (excluding Special Systems)" so I take that as putting it there sense there is just the D wormhole



#11 adamwehn

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 06:52 PM

I see the all eggs in one basket problem for the Muaat having the warsun doing everything. Two lucky rolls by the Mentak and it is dead without return fire, and the Muaat are basically out of the game, or one really unlucky token that makes a supernova. I am trying to start a regular thing with my group, so I don't want one to be really sad about losing on the second turn or so, and having to watch and not play (We are highschoolers, and not all of us have our own cars) for many many hours.

 

Also, perhaps one fo you could answer me, should a Final Fronteer token be placed on the Creuss on board homeworld tile? It says  "in each system that does not contain any planets (excluding Special Systems)" so I take that as putting it there sense there is just the D wormhole

 

The Creuss system on the map is considered a special system.  Special systems have Red or Yellow borders.



#12 Steve-O

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:45 PM

I am not sure who will risk fighting a warsun with their starting fleet, but then again some may feel a kamikaze run against the warsun is well worth it to knock out the Ember's advantage early. I doubt the attacker will have much of a fleet remaining. To have a reasonable chance you need to try to cause 2 casualties to the warsun and say 2 more to kill his fighters, some starting fleets may be able to manage to kill a warsun and fighter escort in 1 to 2 turns but it would be a pyric victory if the dice are fair.


Also, keep in mind that not everything in TI comes down to combat. Even if no one is rushing off to kill the warsun early on, Muaat being an "obvious threat" can lead to him being short-changed in trade agreements, shafted by new laws people vote in favour of just to "slow down that war sun," etc. Alliances have a way of forming against Muaat. No one wants to do something that might help him, because he starts with a freakin' war sun!

Winning the game means scoring VPs, and not all VPs require combat to score. Trade embargoes and biased politics can hurt Muaat's chances of winning just as easily.

#13 Wick

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:00 PM

Well, since I have won all of my games so far, I am usually targeted by the other 2 players anyways. May as well have the big guns too. LOL.



#14 SFRR

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 07:25 PM

Ok, I ordered both expansions and I am starting a little gaming group of four people. For our first game I was planning to remove the Nekro Virus, Clans of Saar, and Arboric from the game because of the way they really change the game rules up, then also the Embers of Muuat for their crummy starting units (Other than the warsun)

What do you more tailiented people think? Those who have had more experience than one half finished game at a convention

I would leave out the Naalu Collective as they make turn order more difficult (they are always first), and the Yssaril Tribes, they are awesome, but newer players generally do not grasp their "awesomeness"


(SFRR) aka Siferr Stark





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