Jump to content



Photo

Heavy Bolters vs. Autocannons


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#21 Tenebrae

Tenebrae

    Member

  • Members
  • 990 posts

Posted 14 March 2014 - 03:20 PM

The HB is actually (marginally) superior at killing marine-types in the TT than the autocannon is. (1/3 chance vs. 5/18 chance if fired at BS3.) Shorter range though IIRC,

Those are average number of kills, not probabilities of scoring a kill, but that's a detail.

But indeed, you're right. My bad.



#22 Cail

Cail

    Member

  • Members
  • 373 posts

Posted 15 March 2014 - 07:09 AM

Remember if you use the horde rules you get a +30 for firing against a horde with a magnitude of 30 or more, so it completely offsets the -30 penalty to fire it.


  • Intellect is the Understanding of Knowledge.
  • Sentience is the Basest Form of Intellect.
  • Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
  • Comprehension is the Key to all Things

 


#23 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 15 March 2014 - 08:37 AM

 

The HB is actually (marginally) superior at killing marine-types in the TT than the autocannon is. (1/3 chance vs. 5/18 chance if fired at BS3.) Shorter range though IIRC,

Those are average number of kills, not probabilities of scoring a kill, but that's a detail.

But indeed, you're right. My bad.

 

 

Having nothing better to do with an hour, I did the math, and the HB performs better (either significantly or slightly) against all forms of infantry than  does the AC. In fact the HB is the best heavy weapon, period, against all forms of infantry (except possibly a frag missile against tightly-packed blobs) with the exception of the plasma cannon. The AC is a light-vehicle/Monstrous Critter killer and is mediocre against infantry.

 

In fact, the autocannon does not perform significantly better against infantry than do lasguns, leaving range out of the equation (which is admittedly a big, big, omission):

 

Consider: Two Guardsmen (= 2 lasguns) becomes 1 autocannon heavy weapons team in TT (you exchance 2 GM for an HWT, in other words). Assuming that range is short, the two lasgun guys get 4 shots vs. the HWT's 2.

 

If shooting at marines (T4 Sv3+) with BS3, the math looks like this:

 

Lasguns: 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/18 x 4 = 4/18 = 2/9 = 0.22. If you FRFSRF that, it becomes 1/18 x 6 = 1/3 = 0.33

 

Autocannon: 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 2 = 10/36 = 5/18 = 0.28.

 

In other words, at short range (admittedly a big factor), lasguns (or rather the two lasguns that you would need to get rid of to get an autocannon) are only marginally worse than autocannons against heavy infantry, and superior given FRFSRF.

 

An HB on the other hand gives you

 

1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/18 = 1/9 x 3 = 3/9 = 1/3 = 0.33.

 

That is, the HB is 150% as good as the lasguns in normal circumstances and identical with them given FRFSRF.

 

OK. This has been a long digression :). From which I extract two things. 1) in TT, if you are planning on going up against infantry of any sort and not vehicles or Monstrous Critters, ALWAYS take the heavy bolter over the autocannon. 2) FFG is not modelling the TT weapons effectively at all. :)


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 15 March 2014 - 08:42 AM.


#24 Tenebrae

Tenebrae

    Member

  • Members
  • 990 posts

Posted 15 March 2014 - 09:03 AM

Excellent.

 

Also: 3) I should do my math rather than trusting "intuition" with regards to weapons :)



#25 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 15 March 2014 - 03:20 PM

Excellent.

 

Also: 3) I should do my math rather than trusting "intuition" with regards to weapons :)

 

That a pair of lasguns outperforms an autocannon (assuming you have a FRFSRF order going on at 12" range or less) really surprised me.

 

Really now that I think of it, when you are shifting two GMs to a HB or AC HWT, what you're getting is more an increase in range than an increase in damage output, at least as far as infantry are concerned.

 

BTW ACs will Instant Death T3 multi-Wound models, so they do have that niche advantage (that is, Necron Scarabs and IG, Eldar, DE, and SoB Indendent Characters),



#26 Tenebrae

Tenebrae

    Member

  • Members
  • 990 posts

Posted 15 March 2014 - 04:41 PM

Lasguns are ... better than one expects.

Especially (obviously) with FRFSRF, but considering their price, against most infantry really.

Mainly because they are so cheap.



#27 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,057 posts

Posted 15 March 2014 - 07:59 PM


OK. This has been a long digression :). From which I extract two things. 1) in TT, if you are planning on going up against infantry of any sort and not vehicles or Monstrous Critters, ALWAYS take the heavy bolter over the autocannon. 2) FFG is not modelling the TT weapons effectively at all. :)

 

 

This post is probably slightly misleading though as the ACs relative performance gets better against GEQ-opponents where it ignores armour.

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#28 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:26 AM

 


OK. This has been a long digression :). From which I extract two things. 1) in TT, if you are planning on going up against infantry of any sort and not vehicles or Monstrous Critters, ALWAYS take the heavy bolter over the autocannon. 2) FFG is not modelling the TT weapons effectively at all. :)

 

 

This post is probably slightly misleading though as the ACs relative performance gets better against GEQ-opponents where it ignores armour.

 

Alex

 

 

The heavy bolter also ignores 5+ armour (I assume GEQ means "Guardsman Equivalent").

 

Actually the AC is worse (relatively) against GEQ because S7 and S5 are identical against T3.

 

Vs. GEQ:

 

Autocannon: 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 2 = 5/6 = 0.83

 

Heavy bolter: 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/12 x 3 = 15/12 = 1 1/4 = 1.25.

 

The heavy bolter is 50% better against GEQ than the autocannon  (as you would expect, since against GEQ it is effectively a shorter-range autocannon with a 50% higher rate of fire).

 

In comparison to our 2 lasguns at 12" range:

 

1/2 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 2/12 = 1/6 x 4 = 2/3 = 0.67

 

With FRFSRF:

 

1/6 x 6 = 1

 

So, against GEQ, the autocannon performs almost identically to 2 lasguns and is about 20% worse if there is FRFSRF. The heavy bolter on the other hand is much better in both cases.

 

BTW the _real_ heavy infantry killer is the multilaser (which is not man-portable).

 

Vs. MEQ: 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 15/36 = 5/12 = 0.42 (compare to the autocannon's 0.28)

 

Vs. GEQ: 1/2 x 5/6 x 2/3 = 10/36 = 5/18 x 3 = 15/18 = 1.04 = 0.83 (same as the autocannon)

 

Like I said, the main advantage of these weapons over simple lasguns against infantry seesm to be range.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 16 March 2014 - 02:31 AM.


#29 AtoMaki

AtoMaki

    Member

  • Members
  • 664 posts

Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:47 AM

Like I said, the main advantage of these weapons over simple lasguns against infantry seems to be range.

 

And the AC instagibs T3 multi-wound models. Maybe it doesn't sound very important, but sometimes, you want that Ethereal dead ASAP. 



#30 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,116 posts

Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:22 AM

 

Like I said, the main advantage of these weapons over simple lasguns against infantry seems to be range.

 

And the AC instagibs T3 multi-wound models. Maybe it doesn't sound very important, but sometimes, you want that Ethereal dead ASAP. 

 

 

Yeah I mentioned that. :I It's a niche function only applicable to certain armies.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 16 March 2014 - 06:22 AM.


#31 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,057 posts

Posted 17 March 2014 - 03:15 AM

So, against GEQ, the autocannon performs almost identically to 2 lasguns and is about 20% worse if there is FRFSRF. The heavy bolter on the other hand is much better in both cases.

 

This is pretty much what was to be expected, no?

 

Alex


My 40K Blog (essentially a Best Of FFG Forums):

http://www.40kroleplay.weebly.com

House Rules, Rule Clarifications, Game Aids, New Creatures, consolidated official Deathwatch Squad Mode rules, 40K Tabletop to 40K Roleplay comversions, etc.


#32 Werewindlefr

Werewindlefr

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 26 March 2014 - 04:28 PM

The heavy bolter is 50% better against GEQ than the autocannon  (as you would expect, since against GEQ it is effectively a shorter-range autocannon with a 50% higher rate of fire).

 

 

And that's where DH2 fails, because extra rate of fire doesn't add much at these rates of fire in the DH rules. Not only that, but a heavy bolter will not reliably kill a slightly tought normal dude where the autocannon will. In other words, using a "Tabletop translator" is a silly idea because GW has already stated that the "real" space marine depicted in the fluff would be worth 100 points, not 15. In other words, it's better to try to achieve some sort of balance, enough to actually justify that the heavy bolter is regularly used and feared as an efficient death dealing machine.

 

 

The penalties for recoil are a terrible idea anyway. Most single-shot weapons can be balanced against autofire ones using better power-per-shot or with the accurate trait, or some other trait (good concealability...). The only balance issue is for weapons with multiple firing mode, and the fix for this marginal issue is really damaging the consistency of the armory. In my games, Autofire will be +20 and +1 hit per 2 DoS, and Semi-Auto will be +10/+1 hit per 3 DoS.

Also, I'm introducing a new trait for weapons called "anti-vehicular" which gives a -10 WS penalty because anti-tank weapons are not meant to be as accurate an assault rifle at "short" range. And FFG needs to mix-up "Man-Portable" and "Space-Marine Portable" (I'm looking at you, Lascannon and Autocannon), space marines are not the same as regular humans, even Catachans.



#33 nultaar

nultaar

    Member

  • Members
  • 33 posts

Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:50 PM

Lascannons, Heavy bolters, auto cannons, plasma cannons being man portable is established fluff via necromunda and some of the imperial guard special characters.

#34 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:03 PM

Also, the Sisters of Battle, but they have somewhat of an excuse 'cus they wear strength-enhancing power armor.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS