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Terrain Cards & Warlock Quests


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#21 The_Warlock

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:07 AM

 

 

Agreed with Warlock.
If the Warlock's Cave space is gone, its instructions that you must complete your quest no longer apply.
...

 

I don't think this is what he actually meant.. The instructions on that space is ignored (teleported here.. gain a talisman..) but all rules from the rulebook are still in effect (you must complete is and can't go through PoP).

This is how we play is and I totally agree with this. 
(Did I understand you correctly Warlock?)

 

The instruction that you must complete the Warlock Quest as soon as possible is still there, but you cannot complete a quest while the Warlock's Cave has a Terrain Card, so in this case cannot prevails over can/must as usual in Talisman (see the Can vs. Cannot Golden Rule).

 

This is the reason why a quest like "Lose 1 life", that can always be completed by a character with 2 or more lives, remains in stand-by while the Cave is Terrain-ed. You won't be forced to lose a life for no effect, because you can't complete the quest in the absence of the Warlock's Cave. As soon as the Warlock's Cave is back, though, you will be forced to complete the Quest immediately (if able).

There are already chances to gain a quest that you can't complete. An example as old as Talisman is the "Take 1 life from another character" quest while there are no other characters in play except you and the character on the CoC...

...

There are no rules about discarding Quests that you cannot complete...

 

I think this is different, "Take 1 life from another character" would only be the same if you were playing a solo game (which can but that is definitely a parenthesis). It is currently impossible but that will have to change, he will win or have to come out (constantly walking back and forth in there would result in the Fiery Revenge Spell ;) ). So this is in a way not more impossible than killing him is while he is far away.

Visiting the XXX is absolutely impossible since that space no longer exists  (even if we know it's just hidden by a card :) ..that can be removed if you're lucky and find the right spell/adventure card).

And there is a rule that touches this in an unclear way.
"If an effect refers to a space that is no longer on the board because that space contains a Terrain Card, that effect is  ignored."
It doesn't say "If an adventure card/spell..." etc it says "effect" so it's much broader and I'd say quests falls under "effects".

Do you think this makes any sense?

 

The solo game of Talisman is something that could be played, but it's ultimately a homebrew attempt that requires this adjustment as well as many others, so I'd rather not consider it if we want to come to a conclusion which is not casting a Fiery Revenge Spell on everybody. :D

 

If you receive "Take 1 Life from Another Character" and the only available character is on the Crown of Command, there's no way to the Crown for you, except the Treasure Chamber. This is a common situation with only the base game, where Warlock's Cave is the main location to gain a Talisman and this quest is 1 out of 6 possible tasks.

 

The word "effect" is widely used and it encompasses all card special abilities and instructions. It surely includes the instructions on the Warlock Quest cards, but "ignoring" such effects doesn't mean that the WQ has to be discarded. The Imp could teleport you to a space that doesn't exist anymore, so the teleport is "ignored" and the Event is discarded, not because you have ignored it but because it is normal for that type of card (even for Events that miss discarding instructions). Would you discard the Magic Portal because you've rolled a destination that is not available because the space is Terrain-ed? I don't think so, it's a Place card and it stays there until discarded by an applicable "effect". The same goes for Warlock Quests: you keep them until they are completed and if you cannot complete them, you're stuck with them, like a Spell you cannot cast.


Edited by The_Warlock, 13 May 2014 - 01:08 AM.


#22 The Wizard

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:02 PM

I can´t see why you shouldn´t be able to complete a quest just because the WC is gone. If the Space is terrain-ed it does not prevent you from completing the quest, but will prevent you from teleporting back to the space and get a reward ( or a new quest ) as the space no longer exist. The Warlocks cave space has no influence on how and when you complete your quest. It gives you a quest or teleports you back and reward you for completing a quest ,which you must ignore if the space is terrain-ed, not the quest itself.

This is how our playgroup play it :)

 

Regards



#23 Artaterxes

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 02:53 PM

It seems there is inconsistency. On some occasions, we say that the wording of a card is incomplete, such as older spells, and the "true text" actually contains more words.

 

On other occasions, such as this one, we say that the wording is complete as-written, even though there are additional rules. So, are we sure that the rules under "Warlock's Cave" on pg. 17 of the rulebook are not just extensions of the space instructions?

 

If we treat the rulebook words and the Warlock's Cave words separately, the effects would be this:

1. Gain a quest. (Space)

2. Must complete the quest as soon as possible. (Rulebook)

3. Cannot cross Portal of Power with incomplete quest. (Rulebook)

4. Teleport to Warlock's Cave once quest complete. (Space)

 

Now note the rule from the Firelands.

"If an effect refers to a space that is no longer on the board because that space contains a Terrain Card, that effect is  ignored."

There are four "effects" listed above. Two of them refer to (or more accurately, are "referred by") a space that no longer exists: #1 and #4 (if we assume "referred by" and "referred to" are interchangeable wordings). Still #2 and #3 are in effect because they refer to the quest and not the space.

 

So, if we consider the rulebook phrases are extensions of the space instructions, then all four effects would be ignored when the Warlock's Cave doesn't exist. You don't have to complete your quest (until it's restored), you are once again allowed to cross the Portal of Power (until it's restored), and you do not teleport to the Warlock's Cave (until it's restored).

 

But, if we consider the rulebook phrases separate, then you will have to complete your quest as soon as possible, you will be banned from passing the Portal of Power, but you don't teleport or gain rewards.

 

I also don't see the rule where you "cannot complete a Warlock's Quest while the Warlock's Cave has a terrain card." Is that an extrapolation of the idea that it's necessary to be able to teleport and gain a reward to complete a quest? Because you can complete a quest and rid yourself of it without gaining a reward; it can be done. Just fulfill your conditions and discard the quest (a wasted quest). If we don't like that idea, then I think we are injecting our own constraints. (Unless of course someone can point me to a rule I missed that says being teleported to the Cave is mandatory for quest completion.)

 

It can become quite complicated to decode literal wordings when there were probably unintentional omissions to begin with. I think we should just decide if the Warlock's Cave rules in the rulebook are extensions of the space instructions or not.


Edited by Artaterxes, 13 May 2014 - 03:06 PM.

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#24 Nioreh

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:02 PM

Very well summarized. I would say not on the space. 

 

It also works thematically if you ask me. You might be bound on a personal level to compleete the quest and as I remember it it is the door that will not let you pass and the door is still standing ..or well.. it might be :)

This part feels clear for me but Im still not convinced on what to do when a character draws Visit the city when no such space exists on the game board. I see this as the same scenario as The take one life quest vs CoC.



#25 The_Warlock

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:22 AM

Thank you Artaterxes for giving the right picture. I was actually going the wrong way and the Wizard is absolutely right.

 

The original discussion was about Terrain Cards on Quest destination spaces that prevent a quest from being completed; then the discussion diverted from it's original purpose and we started mixing that situation with another one, which is a Terrain Card on the Warlock's Cave.

 

If you check the rules for Warlock Quest Cards from Reaper or Frostmarch, you'll spot this sentence:

All other rules governing Warlock Quests continue to apply when Warlock Quest Cards are used: only one quest can be accepted at a time, quests must be completed as soon as possible, characters who have accepted a quest are prevented from opening the Portal of Power until the quest is complete, and so on.

 

So, the rules included in the base game rulebook are actually rules about Warlock Quests, not about the Warlock's Cave space. Well, in the base game there was no difference between the 2 concepts, but now the picture has changed quite a bit. I think it's safe to assume that if the Warlock's Cave is Terrain-ed, you must still complete quests as soon as possible and the Portal of Power remains sealed; you just don't get teleported to the Warlock's Cave and don't receive a reward for your quest. So well, it's not possible to stalemate Warlock Quests Alternative Ending with a Terrain Card on the Cave (you must find another way to gain a Talisman, though), but it's surely possible to do the trick with Sacred Pool Ending.

 

On the original topic, which is Visiting/Travelling to a space that currently has a Terrain Card on it, I'm definitely against the idea that the WQ should be ignored and thus discarded. The Warlock Quest is not an effect or an instruction, it's a purpose, or a task if you prefer. The rules don't force you to reach that destination as soon as possible, they only state that when you're in the condition to complete the quest, you must do it. They can't be ignored because they're not a single action. So, if you have/want to complete that Warlock Quest, you're only option is to find a way to remove the Terrain Card.

 

Spells and Objects that interact with Terrain Cards tend to be disregarded at first sight. I've seen Magic Shovel, Atlas of Al-Balkhi, Royal Masons and Terramorph Spells discarded at the first occasion by players who do not think they're useful for anything; that is very wrong. In one of our last games, I used Verdant Growth to place a Terrain Card on the Treasure Chamber exactly when the leading character was about to go for a direct teleport (I calculated the timing, actually), then I used my Riding Horse to get inside the Inner Region quickly and I reached the CoC first, thus winning the game (it was a boss ending).


Edited by The_Warlock, 14 May 2014 - 12:27 AM.


#26 Croonos

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 01:18 AM

This part feels clear for me but Im still not convinced on what to do when a character draws Visit the city when no such space exists on the game board. I see this as the same scenario as The take one life quest vs CoC.

 You can always bang a Gong of War in Highlands or use other ways to summon a character from CoC... So there is always way to complete the Warlock quest even if the space you have to visit is terrianed ;).
But on the other hand if completing the Quest would be too difficult than their use become marginal. Strenght of Talisman still comes from the fact it is consider as a familly game and it can not be too complicate.



#27 Nioreh

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 02:33 PM

 

This part feels clear for me but Im still not convinced on what to do when a character draws Visit the city when no such space exists on the game board. I see this as the same scenario as The take one life quest vs CoC.

 You can always bang a Gong of War in Highlands or use other ways to summon a character from CoC... So there is always way to complete the Warlock quest even if the space you have to visit is terrianed ;).
But on the other hand if completing the Quest would be too difficult than their use become marginal. Strenght of Talisman still comes from the fact it is consider as a familly game and it can not be too complicate.

 

 

Imo this is NOT a family game; this is a ▓▓▓ NERD GAME :D
http://www.talismani...isman_on_tv.htm (even though they obviously don't know how to play it)
But yeah, The_Warlock wrote a good comment on that in another thread that I agree with.
http://community.fan...ly-means/page-2

I checked the box and yes, its for ages nine and above but what really caught my attention is that it says 90min/game.
My a**!!
Even though that is only for the base game I'd say 90min is quite an underestimation.

 

...

On the original topic, which is Visiting/Travelling to a space that currently has a Terrain Card on it, I'm definitely against the idea that the WQ should be ignored and thus discarded. The Warlock Quest is not an effect or an instruction, it's a purpose, or a task if you prefer. The rules don't force you to reach that destination as soon as possible, they only state that when you're in the condition to complete the quest, you must do it. They can't be ignored because they're not a single action. So, if you have/want to complete that Warlock Quest, you're only option is to find a way to remove the Terrain Card.

...

 

Hm, I change my opinion on this one. I'll probably rule it like this from now on. If you draw a Visit/fight XXX quest and XXX is terrained it's your problem, suck it up and play.
It also goes nicely with the unforgiving shroud of the game in general (which I'm really fond of).

But yes, please FFG, do include these topics in the next FAQ!


Edited by Nioreh, 07 August 2014 - 01:34 PM.


#28 Uvatha

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:24 PM

:) Fat NERD GAME :).

 

I don't know if I should laugh or be offended.

 

As for the Terrian Card thingy.. Yes its tough talismans :) fat nerd or not :).



#29 Nioreh

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 04:22 PM

Haha.. this was a bit too much swenglish (swedish-english) from my side.

In swedish you can use 'fett' (fat) as a synonym to 'of a large extent' 'very much' etc but I realize now that this does not translate very well :rolleyes: 

No offence  ;)


Edited by Nioreh, 22 June 2014 - 04:23 PM.


#30 Uvatha

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:18 PM

Haha.. this was a bit too much swenglish (swedish-english) from my side.

In swedish you can use 'fett' (fat) as a synonym to 'of a large extent' 'very much' etc but I realize now that this does not translate very well :rolleyes: 

No offence  ;)

ah, good to know I will remember that :)



#31 wretchedthrawn

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:54 AM

I have a question about terrain cards and the starting space. If a player gets a new character and the new character's starting space no longer exists, where does that character start?



#32 Nioreh

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 05:19 AM

I have a question about terrain cards and the starting space. If a player gets a new character and the new character's starting space no longer exists, where does that character start?


That is actually clarified in the rules if my memory isn't failing me.
When you place new characters you ignore placed terrain cards.

#33 Uvatha

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 05:30 AM

 

I have a question about terrain cards and the starting space. If a player gets a new character and the new character's starting space no longer exists, where does that character start?


That is actually clarified in the rules if my memory isn't failing me.
When you place new characters you ignore placed terrain cards.

 

Yep you ignore the terrain cards for starting locations its in the rulesheet.






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