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Terrain Cards & Warlock Quests


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#1 metalzo

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 11:31 AM

If I use a spell to turn Warlock's Cave into ruins, I know that characters can't go there for new quests, but what about those that already have uncompleted quests? In a recent game, I turned Warlock's Cave into ruins while the other player had an active quest to kill an enemy, and ruled that she could not complete the quest, because there was no longer a cave to be teleported back to. This was obviously pretty important, because it prevented her from getting a talisman or opening the portal of power absent reversing the terrain effect. Did I play it right?

And as a follow-up, if she kills an enemy while the terrain card is active, and it later gets removed, does she then immediately teleport and complete the quest? Or must she kill another enemy after Warlock's Cave has been restored?

One more follow-up, I'm assuming terrain cards can't be removed using Destruction spells or similar effects?

And as a side note, terrain cards are an awesome new addition to the game! So many new possibilities, and with them a lot of rule questions.

#2 JediKnightAmoeba

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:45 PM

This is one of those questions that make people sigh.......sigh.  

 

Seriously though, this is a good question.  I just read the rules a few times and the one thing that jumps out at me is the rule under "Terrain Cards and Movement: Likewise if the Portal of Power space contains a Terrain Card, characters may cross freely from the Middle Region to the Inner Region; they do not have to pick or force the lock, nor are they stopped by the Warlock if they have an uncompleted Quest".  

To me this looks like if the Warlock space is not present, it is the same rules; he can not stop them from entering should they pick the lock.  However if none of his 4 Talisman's are out there is a severely limited supply of Talisman's to obtain in the other regions(if you are using them) or in the adventure deck.  You would still be turned away before entering the Crown of Command since you need a Talisman to enter.  

 

In my opinion, I would hold on to the quest because there are cards that can remove terrain cards.  If the quest was completed you would be warped back as soon as the cave appeared again.  Maybe the Warlock and his cave took a trip to another realm and came back?  :-) 

 

So I would say Yes and No.  You played the part correctly about not being able to complete the Quest but incorrect in going to the Inner Region.  But if you do not have a Talisman, what is the point?

 

No, I do not believe a destruction spell could remove a terrain card, that is now how the space is designated.  Only the Ifrit can change the land.


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#3 sanityismyvanity

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 03:35 PM

I agree, the precedent that rules associated with certain spaces become null and void if the space no longer exists due to a Terrain Card being there. Unfulfilled Warlock Quests should no longer prevent you from crossing the Portal of Power if the Warlock is no longer around to enforce his rules. The geas is broken.

 

I do wonder though, what happens to Cerberus if drawn and the Portal of Power doesn't exist? Where does the poor pup go?

 

Where does a Ghost materialize if there are 2 Chapels or Graveyards to choose from?

 

Which Forest does the Dryad teleport you to? The Imp?


Edited by sanityismyvanity, 06 March 2014 - 03:38 PM.


#4 The_Warlock

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:37 PM

These are all interesting questions. The topic is absolutely new, but I think we have enough rules to give answers here.

 

If I use a spell to turn Warlock's Cave into ruins, I know that characters can't go there for new quests, but what about those that already have uncompleted quests? In a recent game, I turned Warlock's Cave into ruins while the other player had an active quest to kill an enemy, and ruled that she could not complete the quest, because there was no longer a cave to be teleported back to. This was obviously pretty important, because it prevented her from getting a talisman or opening the portal of power absent reversing the terrain effect. Did I play it right?

 

From the Firelands Rules:

While a Terrain Card is on a space, the text and name of that space is ignored and the text and
name of the Terrain Card is used instead. If an effect refers to a space that is no longer on the board because that space contains a Terrain Card, that effect is ignored.

 

The whole Warlock Quest completion process is blocked by the Terrain Card on the space. The word "ignored" should probably be interpreted as "consider as the instruction/option was never given", which is also a good way to interpret the Nomad's "ignore Places" ability.

 

And as a follow-up, if she kills an enemy while the terrain card is active, and it later gets removed, does she then immediately teleport and complete the quest? Or must she kill another enemy after Warlock's Cave has been restored?

I would say the second option is the right one. Retroactively completing a Warlock Quest is kind of weird. You should complete the quest immediately if able, but if you are not able, you cannot complete it and must do it in an other moment (when you fulfil the conditions again).

 

One more follow-up, I'm assuming terrain cards can't be removed using Destruction spells or similar effects?

 

Terrain Cards cannot be affected by effects targeting Adventure Cards, because they are another type of card.

 

Someone could ask whether some effects in the City Expansion, which refer to "cards" in general, could move Terrain Cards as well (e.g. Travelling Bazaar, Town Square). The problem is in those incomplete wordings, not in the Terrain Cards.

 

I agree, the precedent that rules associated with certain spaces become null and void if the space no longer exists due to a Terrain Card being there. Unfulfilled Warlock Quests should no longer prevent you from crossing the Portal of Power if the Warlock is no longer around to enforce his rules. The geas is broken.

 

The instruction about what happens when you complete a quest is given on the Warlock's Cave space, so it is cancelled by the Terrain Card. On the other hand, the rule about preventing a character with an uncompleted quest from opening the Portal of Power is given in the rulebook, so it stays in effect also when the Warlock's Cave is Terrain-ed.

 

To cross freely from the Middle to the Inner Region, the Portal of Power space should receive a Terrain Card too.

 

I do wonder though, what happens to Cerberus if drawn and the Portal of Power doesn't exist? Where does the poor pup go?

 

Where does a Ghost materialize if there are 2 Chapels or Graveyards to choose from?

 

Which Forest does the Dryad teleport you to? The Imp?

The instruction to place the card on a space/move to a space is ignored, so the card stay on the space where it is drawn (as it would if the ignored instructions were not written on the cards).

 

If there are two options (e.g. two Forest spaces), I suggest two ways to solve the matter:

 

1) Randomly determine the space with a die roll

2) Apply the same concept of "Simultaneous Effects" given in the FAQ 1.1; the player taking the turn chooses to which space he is teleported.

 

Of course this is FAQ material, not because the game will be unplayable without such clarifications, but because it will be nice to receive an official rule.


Edited by The_Warlock, 06 March 2014 - 04:41 PM.


#5 metalzo

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:45 PM

The instruction about what happens when you complete a quest is given on the Warlock's Cave space, so it is cancelled by the Terrain Card. On the other hand, the rule about preventing a character with an uncompleted quest from opening the Portal of Power is given in the rulebook, so it stays in effect also when the Warlock's Cave is Terrain-ed.

 

To cross freely from the Middle to the Inner Region, the Portal of Power space should receive a Terrain Card too. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure about this one.  The relevant rule text (p. 17 of basic rule set) is:

 

"In addition, the Warlock will prevent any character who has accepted a quest from opening the Portal of Power until he has first completed his quest."

 

Arguably, the clause "Warlock will prevent" is flavor text and should be ignored, but the way I read it, it is the Warlock that is preventing the opening of the Portal of Power, and when the Warlock's Cave is covered by a terrain card, there is no Warlock.  Even though as you said, there are other ways of getting into the inner region (terrain portal of power, various encounters that teleport you to the Plain of Peril or Crown of Command), I think perhaps this restriction should be lifted during the time the Warlock's Cave is replaced by a terrain card.

 

But yes, this is all FAQ fodder.  Hopefully we'll have an updated one soon!



#6 JediKnightAmoeba

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 06:25 PM

And if we are playing with the Warlock's quest alternate ending, the game is forfeit. LOL.

There are a few spells and cards that deal with the Warlock's Cave. There is no doubt, this is definitely FAQ fodder.

....sigh....

#7 JediKnightAmoeba

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 06:32 PM

Of course this is FAQ material, not because the game will be unplayable without such clarifications, but because it will be nice to receive an official rule.


When it comes to anything relating to "The Warlock", I would think you are the official ruling! :-)

#8 The_Warlock

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:11 PM

 

The instruction about what happens when you complete a quest is given on the Warlock's Cave space, so it is cancelled by the Terrain Card. On the other hand, the rule about preventing a character with an uncompleted quest from opening the Portal of Power is given in the rulebook, so it stays in effect also when the Warlock's Cave is Terrain-ed.

 

To cross freely from the Middle to the Inner Region, the Portal of Power space should receive a Terrain Card too. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure about this one.  The relevant rule text (p. 17 of basic rule set) is:

 

"In addition, the Warlock will prevent any character who has accepted a quest from opening the Portal of Power until he has first completed his quest."

 

Arguably, the clause "Warlock will prevent" is flavor text and should be ignored, but the way I read it, it is the Warlock that is preventing the opening of the Portal of Power, and when the Warlock's Cave is covered by a terrain card, there is no Warlock.  Even though as you said, there are other ways of getting into the inner region (terrain portal of power, various encounters that teleport you to the Plain of Peril or Crown of Command), I think perhaps this restriction should be lifted during the time the Warlock's Cave is replaced by a terrain card.

 

But yes, this is all FAQ fodder.  Hopefully we'll have an updated one soon!

 

 

It's not required for the FAQ to address a rule just because it is given in "flavour text fashion", but this already happened with the Reaper who cannot enter the Inner Region (see FAQ 1.1), so nothing against it. From a point of view that strictly considers rules, the Warlock's Cave instructions are ignored when the space is "terrain-ed", while additional rules given in the Rulebook remain in effect.

 

 

Of course this is FAQ material, not because the game will be unplayable without such clarifications, but because it will be nice to receive an official rule.


When it comes to anything relating to "The Warlock", I would think you are the official ruling! :-)

 

 

Yeah, I'm not a Warlock, but "The Warlock". No wimps and posers here...

 

I've known adventures, seen places you people will never see, I've been Offworld and back... frontiers! I've stood on the back deck of a blinker bound for the Plutition Camps with sweat in my eyes watching the stars fight on the shoulder of Orion...I've felt wind in my hair, riding test boats off the black galaxies and seen an attack fleet burn like a match and disappear. I've seen it, felt it...!

 

That was an easy quote. I'm a player just like you and I'm not here to give official answers, I only try to interpret rules as given. If there is some unsolvable question, I wish it could be officially answered just as you do.

 

Warlock Quests Ending has some big black holes that require clarification, but in this case I don't think there's much to explain. Terrain Cards will be nice up your sleeve to change Warlock's Cave just when you have completed your fourth quest, thus being the only one able to get victory... unless someone destroys or steals your Talisman or removes the Terrain Card in the meantime. Spells that place Terrain Cards can give you strategic advantage, but you have to get them at the right time or hold onto them to use them to the best resul.


Edited by The_Warlock, 07 March 2014 - 05:12 PM.

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#9 0beron

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:36 PM

You can enter the Inner region, without a Talisman, but you cannot go into/past The Valley of Fire without it.  (unless you have some teleportation spell/device,e tc.)



#10 The Hunter

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:00 PM

Been having a read of this, and this is my interpretation:
If you have a Warlock Quest, and the Warlock's cave is terraformed (a term I use for spaces that have Terrain cards) before you can complete the quest, you would still be unable to open the Portal of Power unless that has been terraformed.
With the Warlock's cave no longer considered in existence, there does not seem to be any need to complete the quest but this is optional (if using the expansion cards, put the card facedown until the cave is available again, then you can teleport to the cave and gain your reward).
Gaining a Talisman will be challenging. Although there are other ways, is could take a lot of time and patience to draw one from the adventure deck, or another character has a Talisman and you could encounter the character (unless there are restrictions such as the Knight unable to attack good characters).

As I said, these are my thoughts, and I could be wrong in some aspects.
But it would be good for FFG to give an official answer to this matter.

#11 Nioreh

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:42 PM

More on topic:

How would each one of you rule having/gaining the quest "Visit the XXX" or "Defeat the sentinel" if that space is "terrained".

Hardcore - Your problem, try un-terraining it or loose :)

Medium - It says that effect should me ignored* but what will translate to in practice? Just discarding that quest and you have to go back there and get a new one?

Easy - Take another quest card

*The Firelands p2:
"If an effect refers to a space that is no longer on the 

board because that space contains a Terrain Card, that effect is 
ignored. For example, if the “Temple” space contains a “Ruins” 
Terrain Card and a “6” is rolled at the Tavern, the effect of 
moving to the Temple is ignored."


#12 The_Warlock

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:51 AM

I agree that the term "ignored" is not very clear in this case, but in any case I think it would be impossible for you to complete the Quest until the space is "terrained". Discarding the Quest is not possible, unless you play with the "Replacing Quests" variant.

 

So your options are:

1) remove the Terrain card and complete the Quest

2) place a Terrain card on the Portal of Power and enter the Inner Region with the uncomplete Warlock Quest.

3) emerge from the Treasure Chamber (if available) to the Crown of Command

 

otherwise you cannot win, I suppose.



#13 Nioreh

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:49 AM

So you think characters could also gain quests that are currently impossible to complete? 
If they already have it I'm buying that they should be stuck with it but it kinda goes against the "ignore" part if you would be able to gain such a quest, don't you think? 



#14 Croonos

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:43 AM

IMO according to the Firelands rules:

1) When you gain a quest and the corresponding place is terrianed - you have to ignore the effect and discard the quest card - like adventure card in similar situation. 

2) When you gain a quest and after that the corresponding place will be terrianed - you still have to compleate this quest (or find a  different way to overcome it).

 

We play the Reaper rules according to Quest Cards so we choose them freely. Optional change of rules which was included in Frosmarch cause that the gaining quest has become unprofitable, sometimes even not feasible - especially with the current amount of expansions which extended the playing time. But now we have to think twice before someone choose an easy: Visit to...   :)



#15 The_Warlock

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 04:10 AM

There are already chances to gain a quest that you can't complete. An example as old as Talisman is the "Take 1 life from another character" quest while there are no other characters in play except you and the character on the CoC. There are also very difficult quests like "Kill One Dragon", that nobody wants to draw.

 

I don't like the term "ignore", which has been used in some Firelands cards (including the Nomad character). I don't think this word has a clear meaning in all situations. "Ignoring" an instruction like "move to XXX" is clear, you just don't do it, but how could you ignore an instruction that gives an objective to your game?  I can only say that the option to discard a Warlock Quest for no effect, because it is currently impossible to complete, is stretching the point a bit. There are no rules about discarding Quests that you cannot complete; on the contrary you're forced to complete them as soon as possible. That's the basic rule about Warlock Quests and that's why they are quite risky if you don't use the alternative rule (or the Reaper basic rule) of choosing Quests.


Edited by The_Warlock, 12 May 2014 - 08:54 AM.


#16 Artaterxes

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:44 AM

Agreed with Warlock.
If the Warlock's Cave space is gone, its instructions that you must complete your quest no longer apply.

But, if you have a quest that can't be competed because its target space is gone, then you can't complete it and can't go through Portal of Power until you do.

That's why accepting Warlock's Quests is risky!

#17 The Hunter

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:35 AM

I think it all comes down to patience and luck.
The terrain card on the Warlock's Cave could get moved to another space, or a terrain card is placed on the Portal of Power.
But you would still need to get a Talisman to get to the Valley of Fire.
There are other ways to get Talismans.
For example, defeating another character who has a Talisman, or draw a Talisman related card from the Adventure deck (a Talisman itself, or the Hermit), but depending on what expansions you're using, this could take a long time.
Or visiting the Temple, or facing the Lord of Darkness.

#18 JediKnightAmoeba

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:17 AM

I think the most sound rule here to impose if this bothers you is to houserule that the Warlock's Cave my be terrained but the Warlock and his cave still exist on the space....or just that the space can not be terrained. After I explained this to our group one of my hoodlum friends made it a point...and his "Quest" to have this space terrained since we were playing the Warlocks Quest alternate ending. He did not succeed but the fact he was trying to exploit this made us house rule the space can not be terrained and instead the next space would be terrained instead.

My friends are asses.

I am patiently waiting for an FAQ for these small problems. But perhaps they were not oversights but intentional to make the game take forever.....
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#19 The_Warlock

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:05 AM

I think the most sound rule here to impose if this bothers you is to houserule that the Warlock's Cave my be terrained but the Warlock and his cave still exist on the space....or just that the space can not be terrained. After I explained this to our group one of my hoodlum friends made it a point...and his "Quest" to have this space terrained since we were playing the Warlocks Quest alternate ending. He did not succeed but the fact he was trying to exploit this made us house rule the space can not be terrained and instead the next space would be terrained instead.

My friends are asses.

A Terrain card on the Warlock's Cave during Warlock Quests alternative ending is a deliberate move to prevent anyone from ever proceeding. Well, it depends on your quests, because if you have 3 quests that are about losing something, you could just get in the condition to complete them and then un-terrain the Warlock's Cave and take the lead.

 

No doubt that a Terrain Card on the Warlock's Cave cancels its text, including the part about completing Quests, being teleported there and gain a Talisman as a reward. Trying to exploit it strategically is very difficult, but certain people might do it just to stalemate the game indefinitely and laugh at the disheartened faces of the other players.

 

No one knows if FFG could come to a good idea, but I don't think a FAQ could sort out this kind of problem, which is more about the players' behaviour than rule interaction. It's like playing a basic game just to get the Poltergeist and stay close to a free healing place, thus being impossible to kill with Command Spell.

 

Suggested house rule: a character who deliberately causes a stalemate is suddenly hit by a Fiery Revenge Spell and the player cannot start with another character. :)


Edited by The_Warlock, 12 May 2014 - 11:09 AM.


#20 Nioreh

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:19 PM

 

Agreed with Warlock.
If the Warlock's Cave space is gone, its instructions that you must complete your quest no longer apply.
...

 

I don't think this is what he actually meant.. The instructions on that space is ignored (teleported here.. gain a talisman..) but all rules from the rulebook are still in effect (you must complete is and can't go through PoP).

This is how we play is and I totally agree with this. 
(Did I understand you correctly Warlock?)

 

 

IMO according to the Firelands rules:

1) When you gain a quest and the corresponding place is terrianed - you have to ignore the effect and discard the quest card - like adventure card in similar situation. 

2) When you gain a quest and after that the corresponding place will be terrianed - you still have to compleate this quest (or find a  different way to overcome it).

 

We play the Reaper rules according to Quest Cards so we choose them freely. Optional change of rules which was included in Frosmarch cause that the gaining quest has become unprofitable, sometimes even not feasible - especially with the current amount of expansions which extended the playing time. But now we have to think twice before someone choose an easy: Visit to...   :)

This is probably how we will interpret it as well.
In case of (1), do you think the player should draw a new quest immediately or would he have to come back?
I would say immediately. 

 

 

...After I explained this to our group one of my hoodlum friends made it a point...and his "Quest" to have this space terrained since we were playing the Warlocks Quest alternate ending...

My friends are asses.

...

 

Haha, my friend immediately wanted to turn the Crown of Command square into a forest :D
..thank god that is actually in the rules.

 

 

...

No doubt that a Terrain Card on the Warlock's Cave cancels its text, including the part about completing Quests, being teleported there and gain a Talisman as a reward. Trying to exploit it strategically is very difficult, but certain people might do it just to stalemate the game indefinitely and laugh at the disheartened faces of the other players.

...

Suggested house rule: a character who deliberately causes a stalemate is suddenly hit by a Fiery Revenge Spell and the player cannot start with another character. :)

 

Hard indeed. In the last game I managed another fun/hard combo possible through fireland and frostmarch:
Combine the Conflagnation spell (burn another characters item) and Hydra spell, efficiently burning all* but one Talisman mine. On the inside i laughed very very hard :D 

*(..except adventure deck and LoD talismans)

 

 

I vote in consistent! Fiery Revenge Spell it is :D

 

 

There are already chances to gain a quest that you can't complete. An example as old as Talisman is the "Take 1 life from another character" quest while there are no other characters in play except you and the character on the CoC...

...

There are no rules about discarding Quests that you cannot complete...

 

I think this is different, "Take 1 life from another character" would only be the same if you were playing a solo game (which can but that is definitely a parenthesis). It is currently impossible but that will have to change, he will win or have to come out (constantly walking back and forth in there would result in the Fiery Revenge Spell ;) ). So this is in a way not more impossible than killing him is while he is far away.

Visiting the XXX is absolutely impossible since that space no longer exists  (even if we know it's just hidden by a card :) ..that can be removed if you're lucky and find the right spell/adventure card).

And there is a rule that touches this in an unclear way.
"If an effect refers to a space that is no longer on the board because that space contains a Terrain Card, that effect is  ignored."
It doesn't say "If an adventure card/spell..." etc it says "effect" so it's much broader and I'd say quests falls under "effects".

Do you think this makes any sense?


Edited by Nioreh, 12 May 2014 - 02:21 PM.





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